Anything good about religion at all?

gothictwilight

robindch wrote: »

Gothic -- great to have you here, but you will be expected to make a contribution. Sooner rather than later would be good.

Thanks.
Religion can be a unifying force in societies which otherwise may be divided by different socio-economic forces. eg Class, gender, poverty, race
This may prevent tensions from boiling over and promote social harmony.
However, this may also be abused by a ruling elite to convince the masses to follow a policy that would benefit the ruling elite and may even be detrimental to the common people.
Example of such societies are many including Ancient Rome (Conquered people could continue to worship their own Gods but were also expected to worship the Roman pantheon. Indeed some Emperors were also worshiped as gods), Ancient Greece, Medieval Europe, Aztecs, Mayans and so on.
Some comentators believe that the rise of the religious right in America is an effort to unify a country that on many levels is utterly divided.
On a personal level, some people finds religion gives their life structure and meaning. It can also answer questions for them such as; what happens when we die, how did we get here,
In societies where there is a lack of oppurtunity or oppression it can give hope or solace eg: Slaves in 18th/19th century America.
In summary Religion is a human institution designed to unite and motivate a society.
So is there anything good about religion?
Well like any institution of course there is.
But many religions have flaws and face huges challenges as the societies and peoples around them evolve.

Religious people also tend to make better pasta.

Mark Hamill

gothictwilight wrote: »

Religion can be a unifying force in societies which otherwise may be divided by different socio-economic forces. eg Class, gender, poverty, race

Religion can also be divisive in such societies, another way to label "us" vs "them". (And while religion may ignore, to an extent, class, poverty and race, it will almost always aggravate gender divisions)

gothictwilight wrote: »

Some comentators believe that the rise of the religious right in America is an effort to unify a country that on many levels is utterly divided.

The religious right that doesn't like poor people or immigrants?

gothictwilight wrote: »

In summary Religion is a human institution designed to unite and motivate a society.

By making them complacent with comfortable lies? Thats what your slavery and personal examples actually amount to. Why is that good thing? The only people who actually seem to benefit from these examples are the slave owners and the church itself.

kylith

Newaglish wrote: »

You can't deny that Christmas is a larf.

We'd still have it without Christianity, though probably called Nollaig. It'd probably be more fun too, since the emphasis would be on celebrating,with food and booze, the fact we'd survived the winter, and not that we needed a 'saviour'.

gothictwilight

Very true mark, very true.
I find it hard sometimes conveying my ideas in a media as limiting as an internet forum.
Religion, like most institutions in any state have positives and negatives.
My point was religion can be a unifying power in a community.
Of course that can be a very negative influence.
There are many examples through human history when communities have been motivated, through religion to do evil things eg: the crusades, persecution of ethnic minorities, christian rock music
Of course religion has been used for positive reason eg: charities, community support, soul music
But the original question was "Anything good about religion at all," so I just answered it to the best of my abilities.
And Mark, please don't jump to the conclusion that I follow any organised religion or if indeed i have any beliefs to speak of.
I am just giving my opinion on the role religion has had on societies throughout the age.

Oh yeah religious people can peel an orange without leaving any of that annoying white pith on.

gothictwilight

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The religious right that doesn't like poor people or immigrants?

Mark, by this I mean that in the early 20th century (and late 19th) america became a more prosperous country.
With a higher standard of living, americans could buy more consumer goods, live the good life. etc etc.
However, as the country became more prosperous it also became even more divided, across social, ethnic and economic lines.
There is a line of thought that the republican party increasing tendency to ally itself to the christian right in america is an attempt to paper over these divides.
I believe this to be true and I belive that this is not a positive thing.
I reccomend you watch a documentary called "The Power of Nightmares"
Very good bbc documentary.

Religious people can also tap their heads while rubbing their bellies.
They also can paraell park

Mark Hamill

gothictwilight wrote: »

My point was religion can be a unifying power in a community.

In the same way the homophobia can be a unifying power in a community. People will always feel more comfortable around others with similar strongly held beliefs, while at the same time feeling awkward with people who don't belief it. This is only going to be aggravated by religions, which tend to define people with different beliefs as sinners or heretics and prescribe very specific punishments for them (pre or post death). Any unifying effect from religion is going to be accompanied by a simultaneous divisive effect between those who do and dont share the religion.
Even if you have a society with one single religion, any possible unification effect on class or poverty is based on complacency and comfortable lies, which I don't see as a good thing.

Mark Hamill

gothictwilight wrote: »

However, as the country became more prosperous it also became even more divided, across social, ethnic and economic lines.
There is a line of thought that the republican party increasing tendency to ally itself to the christian right in america is an attempt to paper over these divides.

How exactly can the republic party be seen to paper over these divides considering its negative opinion on universal healthcare and immigrants?

gothictwilight

Mark Hamill wrote: »

In the same way the homophobia can be a unifying power in a community. People will always feel more comfortable around others with similar strongly held beliefs, while at the same time feeling awkward with people who don't belief it. This is only going to be aggravated by religions, which tend to define people with different beliefs as sinners or heretics and prescribe very specific punishments for them (pre or post death). Any unifying effect from religion is going to be accompanied by a simultaneous divisive effect between those who do and dont share the religion.
Even if you have a society with one single religion, any possible unification effect on class or poverty is based on complacency and comfortable lies, which I don't see as a good thing.

Yes, Mark, my pedantic, religion bashing friend.
Religion can be a unifying force for bad.
I thought I made that clear in my previous posts.
Short version Mark, me old chum;
RELIGION CAN BE A FORCE FOR EVIL OR GOOD.
There ye go me old mucker, me ol' mate.

Religious people can also Slam Dunk in basketball and they make nice coffee.

gothictwilight

Mark Hamill wrote: »

How exactly can the republic party be seen to paper over these divides considering its negative opinion on universal healthcare and immigrants?

Watch the documentary, Mark.
By the way I said it was a bad idea.

darlett

Next time you hit your finger with a hammer try relieving the pain by calling out Enda Kenny or someone else.

For me, only Jesus works

joseph brand

darlett wrote: »

Next time you hit your finger with a hammer try relieving the pain by calling out Enda Kenny or someone else.

For me, only Jesus works

(Homer builds a new dog house all while trying not to swear. He hits his thumb with the hammer)
Homer: Oh, fudge. That's...broken. Fiddle dee dee. That will require a tetanus shot. I'm not going to swear, but I am going to...kick this dog house down!
Homer goes into a rage.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEAgr9AlxAI

:D:D


Anything good about religion? Yes. It brought us The Life of Brian. That is all.

Mark Hamill

gothictwilight wrote: »

Yes, Mark, my pedantic, religion bashing friend.
Religion can be a unifying force for bad.
I thought I made that clear in my previous posts.
Short version Mark, me old chum;
RELIGION CAN BE A FORCE FOR EVIL OR GOOD.
There ye go me old mucker, me ol' mate.

You seem to miss my point. If religions unifying force is both simultaneously good and bad, does that not, at least, make it moot in this discussion?

Mark Hamill

gothictwilight wrote: »

Watch the documentary, Mark.
By the way I said it was a bad idea.

I'm not watching a 3hr documentary to figure out your interpretation of it. Going by the wikipage, it seems the documentary is coming at it from almost a purely politic point of view - the far right are neo-Conservatives who have used fear of the Soviets, The War on Terror etc. to gain political control over people driven by their own fear of individualism, starting back in the 70s. Religion doesn't seem to come into it until the 90s.

gothictwilight

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I'm not watching a 3hr documentary to figure out your interpretation of it. Going by the wikipage, it seems the documentary is coming at it from almost a purely politic point of view - the far right are neo-Conservatives who have used fear of the Soviets, The War on Terror etc. to gain political control over people driven by their own fear of individualism, starting back in the 70s. Religion doesn't seem to come into it until the 90s.

Ah go on Mark, watch it.
go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on go on

DazMarz

Good things:

-Christmas (big roast dinners, drink, sweets, pressies and a general feel-good factor all around)

-Swear words (Jesus fúcking Christ, Jesus tapdancing Christ, Jesus titfúcking Christ, fúcking Christ, cúntin' Jaysus, Ah Jaysus!, oh my fúcking god, etc. etc. ad nauseum)

-Easter (chocolate)

-Father Ted

Bad things:

-how long ya got?!?

Hotblack Desiato

DazMarz wrote: »

Good things:
-Christmas
-Easter

Thank the pagans who invented them rather than the christians who stole them

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan_influences_on_Christianity

Wikipedia wrote:

Some Pagan ceremonies were brought in and the festivals became modern holidays as pagans joined the early church. The Pagan vernal equinox celebration was 'Christianized' and then referred to as the Annunciation to the Blessed Virgin Mary or Annunciation of the Lord and celebrated as the Feast of the Annunciation. ... Summer solstice was a tradition for many pagans. This pagan holiday, was basically brought in and given a name change, and in Christianity was then associated with the nativity of John the Baptist, which now is observed on the same day, June 24, in the Catholic, Orthodox and some Protestant churches. It is six months before Christmas because Luke 1:26 and Luke 1.36 imply that John the Baptist was born six months earlier than Jesus, although the Bible does not say at which time of the year this happened.

Undergod

Sarky wrote: »

Ahahahahahahahahahaa.

I think it's a Blackadder reference?

Bannasidhe

I quite enjoy listening to Gregorian Chants...:o

Turtwig

Shur it's September now, almost October, these songs are in style again.
(Sorry it's not Gregorian.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45VGDNHJ4Zo

Bannasidhe

KILL IT!!!

Turtwig

Ahh now I think that's harsh. How about some Sovereign Grace then?
This stuff is pure quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Tn6qlvmBrI

Bannasidhe

Jernal wrote: »

Ahh now I think that's harsh. How about some Sovereign Grace then?
This stuff is pure quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Tn6qlvmBrI

:eek:

I could only tolerate about 3 seconds of that abomination - tell me, did the lyrics contain the words 'I want to be stripped and flogged. I want to be nailed to a cross. Juuussst liiike Jeee-sus.'?

Turtwig

Bannasidhe wrote: »

:eek:

I could only tolerate about 3 seconds of that abomination - tell me, did the lyrics contain the words 'I want to be stripped and flogged. I want to be nailed to a cross. Juuussst liiike Jeee-sus.'?

No, of course not. You wouldn't have such vile lyrics in a kids tune now would you?
Ok time for some quality this time. (In the form of a prayer to our Lord of course!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJiHDmyhE1A

robindch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I quite enjoy listening to Gregorian Chants...:o

Offtopic, and without wishing to seem too much of a niche geek, but the best chant CD's I've come across are these two:

The 1998 "Orgue et Plain-Chant alterné à l'Abbaye Notre-Dame de Fontgombault", from here and,
The 1987 reissue of the 1959 "Benedictine Monks Of The Abbey Of Saint-Maurice & Saint-Maur, Clervaux", from here.

fitz0

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I quite enjoy listening to Gregorian Chants...:o

Pie Iesu Domine, Dona eis requiem (smack)

robindch wrote: »

The 1987 reissue of the 1959 "Benedictine Monks Of The Abbey Of Saint-Maurice & Saint-Maur, Clervaux", from here.

Although I'm not overly familiar with Gregorian chants, I had the pleasure a few years ago of visiting a Benedictine Abbey near Vaals in the Netherlands and being present for the chant. This is the place (large image.)

Sir Pompous Righteousness

18AD wrote: »

[SIZE="1"]The Tao Teh Ching is beautiful.[/SIZE]

Though some might argue that Taoism isn't a religion at all, only a philosophy.

nozzferrahhtoo

lazygal wrote: »

Anything good about religion at all?

Not that I have seen no. Nor have I seen many decent attempts to argue for it on here. A couple of comically bad ones such as one users insistence that "success" in evolution is measured on the basis of fecundity alone and since religion admonishes people to reproduce more it is therefore a useful evolutionary tool. As nonsense an argument as it's basis is wrong.

However I think often religion is an expression of things that ARE good about our species. An analogy I often use is to the virus. There is nothing good about viruses like the common cold for us. But they are a form of expression of the things that ARE good such as our cellular reproduction system which the virus is evolved to take advantage of.

For example one great thing about our species if the ability to personify things and represent them as real thinking entities. This has given us great art, literature, folklore, conceptual tools, mythology, music and much more. It is a wonderful faculty of our species but like many good faculties a virus has evolved to use it for it's own ends and that virus is religion. The cause of this is that many people do not simply stop at representing things and personifying them.... (from natural things like the God of Thunder, to human things like The gods of love, war and so forth, to the representation of all of the universe itself as a sentient entity such as in the monotheisms).... but they then go on to thinking those personifications real. A step too far but a step which certainly benefits the religion virus greatly.

There are many other such examples of things I think are great about our species but alas Religion takes advantage of them much like any virus takes advantage of things useful to us and commandeers them for their own ends.

gothictwilight wrote: »

Thanks.
Religion can be a unifying force in societies which otherwise may be divided by different socio-economic forces. eg Class, gender, poverty, race
This may prevent tensions from boiling over and promote social harmony.

If only. Alas the opposite seems to be true and religion can be as divisive as you imagine it to be unifying.

Christianity alone has well over 33,000 different branches and sects. Often with different and sometimes irreconcilable views of what being a "True" Christian entails. And that is just within religion and says nothing of the differences between religions.

Not only does it cause such differences but it fuels the fear and paranoia such differences entail. It does not just cause differing opinions in other words, but in some religions it can make those differences more important than life and death, where getting them wrong could be the difference for how your very soul spends eternity.

Your argument might make sense in the distant past where groups of humans were small and one religion could be unifying among them all. But modernity is anything but that and our social groupings are massive and in some cases global and whatever usefulness you imagine has been almost entirely reversed to harm now.

A unifying force would actually have to transcend all the divides, social and geographic. Science is one such example. An experiment performed by a homeless person has the same results as it would performed by the president of a Christian nation, as it would by a middle class citizen in the Islamic East. Facts and Truth care not for social status, social divides or geography.

So while your argument might have had some place in the distant past, it is as irrelevant as it is wrong in the modern world. Any usefulness you imagine in religion seems to have become superfluous and even harmful. We would likely do well to shake it off like a child weens off the mothers breast and faces an existence where it simply does not need it any more.

gothictwilight

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

If only. Alas the opposite seems to be true and religion can be as divisive as you imagine it to be unifying.

Christianity alone has well over 33,000 different branches and sects. Often with different and sometimes irreconcilable views of what being a "True" Christian entails. And that is just within religion and says nothing of the differences between religions.

Not only does it cause such differences but it fuels the fear and paranoia such differences entail. It does not just cause differing opinions in other words, but in some religions it can make those differences more important than life and death, where getting them wrong could be the difference for how your very soul spends eternity.

Your argument might make sense in the distant past where groups of humans were small and one religion could be unifying among them all. But modernity is anything but that and our social groupings are massive and in some cases global and whatever usefulness you imagine has been almost entirely reversed to harm now.

A unifying force would actually have to transcend all the divides, social and geographic. Science is one such example. An experiment performed by a homeless person has the same results as it would performed by the president of a Christian nation, as it would by a middle class citizen in the Islamic East. Facts and Truth care not for social status, social divides or geography.

So while your argument might have had some place in the distant past, it is as irrelevant as it is wrong in the modern world. Any usefulness you imagine in religion seems to have become superfluous and even harmful. We would likely do well to shake it off like a child weens off the mothers breast and faces an existence where it simply does not need it any more.

Alas, if only you understood my point.
I was trying to put across the point that religion has been used by the Persian Empire right up to the US as a tool to unite people.
I never said this was ideal, moral, a good idea, merely stated it as fact.
Ruling elites still try to use religion in this way eg: Iran, Saudi Arabia, India, Ireland, Russia

Some thinkers believe the neo-cons were attemting the same in the US with their courting of the christian right.
Again, I personally think this isnt a good idea.
History is full of leaders, dictators, politicans who personally were atheist or at best lukewarm on religion but used it for strategic aims; Napoleon, Charlemange, Ivan the Terrible,

On a personal level people kind find religion gives them structure in their lives, purpose, hope and solace.

Now I, Me, Myself am not religous so don't start labeling me.

Religious men also tend to have bigger penises

Bannasidhe

gothictwilight wrote: »

Religious men also tend to have bigger penises

Is this a polite way of saying religious men are bigger dicks?

robindch

^^^ gothictwilight has moved, permanently, into the twilight zone.