Irish Rail - 4 Carriage DARTs and rising fares (speculation)

dowlingm

Owt is better than nowt though...

Cookie_Monster

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The delay of trains after matches was to do with keeping the crossing open to clear people out of the stadium. There is now an underpass and better access routes into and out of the new stadium and into the station itself which is helping enormously. There's also a fear that a train leaving immediately after kick off causes a surge towards the station; delaying departures alleviates this

not so, there was always a DART sitting at the platform about 20-30 mins before the final whistle. Leave with 10 mins to go, get train and it leaves just before full time. Still sitting there blocking the line for an age though.

Africa

Still no reply to any mails to IE. Disgraceful. I didnt get my article in todays Metro but someone else did. Clearly this is a big issue for commuters and CIE are just ignoring us.

LXFlyer

Are people being left behind or are they squeezing in?

miller50841

Hi there all,

The 4 carriage idea was for the summer so from next week should be better with more carriages .

The thing about standing is the way to get more on sure go on the Luas there are hardly any seats mostly standing.

The thing that annoys me more is the state of the stations and no toilets at most now.

Africa

Ach, according to that other thread, trains will be gone in this country in a few years cause IE are bloody useless. I bet you we will still have loads of 4 train carriages!

As in absolutely useless.

Absolutely.

LXFlyer

You are still not answering the question.

Are people being left behind or are they all squeezing in?

AL93

lxflyer wrote: »

You are still not answering the question.

Are people being left behind or are they all squeezing in?

i was on it on wednesday and it was full of kids, i didnt see anyone not fitting in but it was tight. I got off at Dun Laoghaire and i had a hard time getting to the door

Captain Chaos

miller50841 wrote: »

The 4 carriage idea was for the summer so from next week should be better with more carriages .
.

The DARTs are still going around in 4 car formations during peak times. This is with all the schools back. Unreal this morning. Can't wait for another few weeks and then the colleges are back too. Time to ditch the DART for good unless they put them back to the regular formations. All the left over DART units lying idle at Fairview depot this morning while 800 people are trying to mash themselves into 4 carriages.

Africa

lxflyer wrote: »

You are still not answering the question.

Are people being left behind or are they all squeezing in?

They squeeze in cause they have to. But this is NOT safe. IE saying it is is borderline criminal.

LEIN

A bunch of St. Andrews kids where left on the platform yesterday as there was no room on a four car to Greystones.

LXFlyer

That frankly is no different from any other high capacity rail system I've been on. I'd have an issue with it if people were being left behind, but frankly I've had to squeeze onto the LUAS many times. Northern Line commuters frequently have to squeeze onto their trains.

maggy_thatcher

lxflyer wrote: »

That frankly is no different from any other high capacity rail system I've been on. I'd have an issue with it if people were being left behind, but frankly I've had to squeeze onto the LUAS many times.

The Luas has trams as often as every 4 minutes, the DART has trains every 15 minutes (or even less frequently if you're in Greystones or past Howth Junction). I wouldn't categorize them as the same type of transport at all.

LXFlyer

Of course it's the same point unless passengers are bring left behind. "Africa" has been complaining initially that he/she did not have a seat. I'm saying that he/she shouldn't expect one at rush hour.

The Idyll Race

Losty Dublin wrote: »

To do that, you block the two running lines for up to 20 minutes for these 2 short trains entering and leaving platforms for the sake of just two specials; a set traveling northbound also blocks up two running lines moving onto the Up line. Once those trains are gone, you either repeat the shunting movement just when you need free train paths or else rely on service trains to cope. Over the years running specials on match copes better as it spreads out the rush over the day.

Grand Canal Dock will soon be the northern line DMU terminal of choice so it can't be used as a holding platform.

The big question though is when. GCD was still called Barrow Street and on the drawing board when that was mooted.

The Idyll Race

Africa wrote: »

At rush hour? Not a lot. In fact id say very, very little.

Perhaps its time to give that particular frickin' bone to the anti rail lobby.

monument

Africa wrote: »

They squeeze in cause they have to. But this is NOT safe. IE saying it is is borderline criminal.

How exactly is it "NOT safe"?

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

The Luas has trams as often as every 4 minutes, the DART has trains every 15 minutes (or even less frequently if you're in Greystones or past Howth Junction). I wouldn't categorize them as the same type of transport at all.

You're right, they are not same - the Dart has far more space for people standing, more people / a higer percentage only going to the central stations, far less chances of the emergency brakes being used and far less sudden emergency brakes.

So, as the last poster said, I'm not sure of the problem if a load of people are not been left at platforms all the time.

end of the road

they had 8 car darts at peak times for a reason, they should still be 6 to 8 cars at peak times end of. cutting them to 4 at non-rush hour times where their may not be the demand is fair enough.

Africa

lxflyer wrote: »

Of course it's the same point unless passengers are bring left behind. "Africa" has been complaining initially that he/she did not have a seat. I'm saying that he/she shouldn't expect one at rush hour.

Twice this week I have seen passengers left behind, once at Pearse and once at Lansdowne. Yes, I do feel I should get a seat, but sure, standing is ok, but that was only a minor one of my points, and a minor thing in the scale of things. Im expecting a decent train service at rush hour especially! Why do you think we are seeing a 25% loss of passengers so quickly? Easy. Higher prices, longer travel times, less comfort. A lot less comfort nowadays.

Being in any other country in the EU, this would not stand. You even mentioned the northern line, which I was on for years; this service is nowhere near frequent enough and has big problems, but Im specifically talking about these 4 car darts, which are supposed to unclog the arteries of Dublin commuting. With the 4 car models, its created:

1. Dangerous conditions inside the trains with people having to squeeze in
2. People not being able to board due to too many inside already
3. An uncomfortable commute that WILL drive users to other modes of transport
4. Driving to the end of the platform, causing commuters to have to run up towards the last carriage; dangerous and stressful

"How exactly is that not safe?" Have you seen how some of these stop start trips are? Do you actually commute on it daily? When you see people thrown around as much as I do, which they are, this becomes dangerous in a crowded situation.

How ever people can defend these 4 trains is absolutely absurd, especially during rush hour and with the schools/college back already.

Put your blinkers back on men and march to the IE beat.

Still no response it seems to anyone about this from IE either.

schemingbohemia

They're not dangerous, uncomfortable yes I'd grant you that and I do think the 8 car sets should be back by now, but they're not dangerous and I've never seen people being "thrown around by stop-start" trains.

With regard to people having to run to the front of the platform, why are people surprised when the 4 car sets have been running all summer long, are they goldfish who can't remember what happened yesterday morning?

The fact that you think you "should" get a seat is idiotic, we'd need 50-car sets if everyone shared your view.

monument

Africa wrote: »

Being in any other country in the EU, this would not stand. You even mentioned the northern line, which I was on for years; this service is nowhere near frequent enough and has big problems, but Im specifically talking about these 4 car darts, which are supposed to unclog the arteries of Dublin commuting. With the 4 car models, its created:

At rush hour people pack them self into trains all the time in loads of cities around the EU.

Africa wrote: »

Dangerous conditions inside the trains with people having to squeeze in
...
"How exactly is that not safe?" Have you seen how some of these stop start trips are? Do you actually commute on it daily? When you see people thrown around as much as I do, which they are, this becomes dangerous in a crowded situation.

I'm sorry to labour this point, but you're still not explaining how loads of people packed into and standing in Darts is dangerous. These trains are designed to have loads of people standing, and packed in at times.

You likely have a strong point that it is needless uncomfortable and might turn people away from rail, but from what you're describing danger does not really come into it.

But if you really think there's a safety issue and you can explain what it is, then contact the independent and very effective Railway Safety Commission -- http://www.rsc.ie/

The Idyll Race

monument wrote: »

At rush hour people pack them self into trains all the time in loads of cities around the EU.




I'm sorry to labour this point, but you're still not explaining how loads of people packed into and standing in Darts is dangerous. These trains are designed to have loads of people standing, and packed in at times.

You likely have a strong point that it is needless uncomfortable and might turn people away from rail, but from what you're describing danger does not really come into it.

But if you really think there's a safety issue and you can explain what it is, then contact the independent and very effective Railway Safety Commission -- http://www.rsc.ie/

I'm a veteran of several years using rail and London Underground for commuting and while I don't miss the stentoran shouts of city gents calling "CAN YOU MOVE DOWN THE CAR, PLEASE!" you would get used to cramming yourself into a small space near where you want to get off. Closest I've come to that level of jamming has been between Jervis and Heuston on the Luas, never on the DART. Still, IE aren't wholly unresponsive. Watch and see over the next while.

bikeman1

IE are amazing. Only a few months ago they were running 8 carriages late at night. The 23:35 Malahide to Connolly regularly had just 8 people on board with the 8 carriages. Obviously it was busier coming out of town, but never ever needed 8 carriages. But did IE care. No. Roll on a few months they won't even put out an 8 car on some peak evening services.

I have seen passengers left behind in Connolly. Another crazy thing is the poor incompetent driving of a large portion of drivers who seem to be unsure how long their trains are and pull to the end of the platforms, causing delays as poor old people are made run down the platform after their dart that looks like it's not stopping. I am not talking about Tara and Connolly where drivers need the screens. Just all the city bound stations from Kilbarrack to Clontarf rd.

My own mother who can either drive or take the dart to work, which takes the same time, had been using the dart again. But she got caught up in a few of these 4 car trains and was completely wedged on and was so uncomfortable. Coupled with a few very bad delays with poor information, she has gone back to the comfort of her own space in her car and so another customer lost and another car on the road.

I don't buy this if there is no-one left behind , then it's ok attitude. It is far more complex than that.

schemingbohemia

bikeman1 wrote: »

Another crazy thing is the poor incompetent driving of a large portion of drivers who seem to be unsure how long their trains are and pull to the end of the platforms, causing delays as poor old people are made run down the platform after their dart that looks like it's not stopping. I am not talking about Tara and Connolly where drivers need the screens. Just all the city bound stations from Kilbarrack to Clontarf rd.

They're not incompetent, they know exactly how long their train is and it makes sense to pull to the end of the platform all the time.

bikeman1

So how come in most UK stations they have stop boards along the platform to instruct the drivers where to stop their train depending on the length of it. The problem with the DART is some drivers are excellent, drive properly, on time, stop their 4 cars at the main entrance to the platform and others do not. One day a four car will stop in one place the next it will go all the way to the end.

I am aware that IE told them to do that, which shows they are unsure of their drivers to stop their train in a safe location.

Also many drivers receive emergency brake applications on a delay basis and let the ATP slow down their train which is not correct. I have travelled on the DART everyday into and out of work for over 5 years now. Some drivers are very poor, while others are excellent.

LXFlyer

As I posted long ago in this thread, my understanding is that this is an energy cost saving measure. I assume the savings must be fairly large to make it worthwhile.

People do need to realise that the transport companies are facing serious funding issues with fuel costs rising and subsidies falling. The shortfalls need to be made up somewhere.

Frankly if that means shortening certain trains then my view would be so be it (unless people are being left behind). The trains are designed to carry large volumes of standees. Full trains are not dangerous - yes they might be less comfortable, but I fail to see anything dangerous. And yes I have commuted on full standing buses and trains and know exactly what it's like.

Expecting a guaranteed seat in rush hour is living in cloud cuckoo land.

foggy_lad

schemingbohemia wrote: »

They're not dangerous, uncomfortable yes I'd grant you that and I do think the 8 car sets should be back by now, but they're not dangerous and I've never seen people being "thrown around by stop-start" trains.

They are dangerous because they are not designed to have people standing in large numbers apart from just inside the doors otherwise they would have seating along both sides instead of the current intrusive seating arrangement and thousands of grab rails and hanging loops for people to hold onto.

With regard to people having to run to the front of the platform, why are people surprised when the 4 car sets have been running all summer long, are they goldfish who can't remember what happened yesterday morning?

Having people running along the platforms in a panic to catch a train is DANGEROUS!
Your attitude towards fare paying passengers speaks volumes about where Irish Rail priorities lie!

The fact that you think you "should" get a seat is idiotic, we'd need 50-car sets if everyone shared your view.

Nobody thinks they should get a seat at rush hour but having a level of service in line with the cost of their tickets considering the huge amount of public monies thrown down the Irish Rail plughole would be nice!

monument wrote: »

At rush hour people pack them self into trains all the time in loads of cities around the EU.

Those trains are designed to carry a lot more standing passengers!

I'm sorry to labour this point, but you're still not explaining how loads of people packed into and standing in Darts is dangerous. These trains are designed to have loads of people standing, and packed in at times.

They are designed to have lots of people standing at the doors but when packed in even more people do not have enough grab rails or hanging loops to ensure they are not thrown around by the movement of the dart. Also in the event of any sudden stop people will get thrown against the corners and ends of the seating blocks which causes injury!

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

Expecting a guaranteed seat in rush hour is living in cloud cuckoo land.

I agree no one should be guaranteed a seat, not on city mass transit, but I do think they have gone too far with 4 carriage DARTS at peak times this summer.

It isn't acceptable for them to be leaving people behind at a station, not when the frequency of DART is so poor.

They should have reduced the DARTs to 6 carriages peak and 4 off peak.

I also agree that it is crazy making people run down the length of the platform to catch a DART. It is definitely very dangerous.

If we end up seeing a lot more 4 and 6 carriage DARTS, then alternative stopping positions and screens should be installed at every DART station so that the DART can stop at the most useful position depending on it length.

Losty Dublin

bikeman1 wrote: »

So how come in most UK stations they have stop boards along the platform to instruct the drivers where to stop their train depending on the length of it. The problem with the DART is some drivers are excellent, drive properly, on time, stop their 4 cars at the main entrance to the platform and others do not. One day a four car will stop in one place the next it will go all the way to the end. I am aware that IE told them to do that, which shows they are unsure of their drivers to stop their train in a safe location.

The default place is to stop as close to the top of the platform as possible. Visual aids such as mirrors and CCTV monitors to watch passengers are located there and these have been found to be best over time from driver and management consultation over time. Where a train stops after braking will depend on the speed when the brake is applied and when exactly it is applied so there will be a little variance in a exact spot.

bikeman1 wrote: »

Also many drivers receive emergency brake applications on a delay basis and let the ATP slow down their train which is not correct. I have travelled on the DART everyday into and out of work for over 5 years now. Some drivers are very poor, while others are excellent.

The ATP can and will override and apply the train brake at specific times a driver has no control over it. Emergency brakes are never applied to stop a train at a station; believe me but you'd know one of them if ever it happens as they are very sudden and extreme in nature.

end of the road

one can dress it up whatever way they like, cost savings whatever, one can argue about how dangerous it is or isn't, the fact is they have shortened 8 car trains to 4 at peak times where 6 to 8 cars are required, its obvious the trains can't cope with the demand at these times of the day, people can make whatever excuses for it they like but the fact is this is just not good enough, going on about how such and such a thing happens in other citties is just pointless, in most cases the operators in these citties are aware of their passenger numbers and therefore have the amount of carriges to cope with the demand. IE are aware of the issue but refuse to bother doing anything about it as usual. the dart is the most used service on the rail network yet IE have short trains at times when longer trains are required (not unique to dart by the way) as mentioned the transport companies are having their subsidies cut and therefore have to cut costs, well surely attracting more people would be the answer and not driving them away? if IE don't get the dart issue sorted thats exactly whats going to happen and i don't mean a few here and there i mean big time. cut the number of carriges to 4 at times when 6 or 8 aren't required, not at times when 6 to 8 are required.