Irish Rail - 4 Carriage DARTs and rising fares (speculation)

Captain Chaos

TheJak01 wrote: »

Though, 6 car 8100 set's aren't particularly out of the ordinary are they?

They would tend to be the most common lately.

TheJak01

Right, well in that case I was probably correct with the 2 car set in front of a 6 car set, 8100's all down the line. Not sure if I mentioned 8500's but I apologise for the confusion.

So, any idea how common the two car set of 8100's actually is? Gotten very used to 4 car sets on the recent runs I've done on the line and wanted to know if this is actually something unusual or if I'm just a bit unobservant and just haven't noticed it in the past.

foggy_lad

TheJak01 wrote: »

Pretty sure it was a 2 car 8100 in front of a 6 car 8100, I may be slightly off on the set up, but I do definitely remembering the two car set out front, which I thought of as slightly unusual. It might just be me being stupid minded and miscounting (stress of accepting college courses can do that to you, so it may have been a 2 car set in front of a 4 car, which I presume would make more sense? Though, 6 care 8100 set's aren't particularly out of the ordinary are they?

Are the 8100 not all 2 car sets? Afaik there are no 6car dart vehicles only combinations of 2car sets so what you saw was 2+2+2+2 not 6+2

eigrod

Where are the savings made by reducing the number of carriages to 4 ? Is it simply energy savings, and if so, would they be considerable in the overall Irish Rail costs ?

bk

eigrod wrote: »

Where are the savings made by reducing the number of carriages to 4 ? Is it simply energy savings, and if so, would they be considerable in the overall Irish Rail costs ?

Energy savings and maybe reduced wear and tear.

No the savings wouldn't be significant. Wages are IR's biggest cost by far.

Perhaps they also use this downtime in the summer months to do increased maintenance and refurbishments.

Captain Chaos

bk wrote: »

Perhaps they also use this downtime in the summer months to do increased maintenance and refurbishments.

That's what I was thinking of back when all this started. When the DARTs were reduced to 4 car formations this summer there seemed to be less of the 8500s around and more 8100s covering and operating as 8 car formations which they hardly ever do as it's better suited to 8500s.

It got me thinking that maybe they were fitting WiFi to the newer units first. IE made a statement that all DARTs would be fitted with WiFi by the end of the year.

keith16

hey all, slightly off topic but I'm just curious.

Why are some DART stations closed for big events nearby? AFAIK, Tara St. was closed as the tall ships festival was on. Also, I remember Grand Canal Dock and Lansdowne Road being closed after a number of games at Lansdowne?

Why would they do this? Is there a single good reason?

maggy_thatcher

keith16 wrote: »

hey all, slightly off topic but I'm just curious.

Why are some DART stations closed for big events nearby? AFAIK, Tara St. was closed as the tall ships festival was on. Also, I remember Grand Canal Dock and Lansdowne Road being closed after a number of games at Lansdowne?

Why would they do this? Is there a single good reason?

Crowd control. Taking Tara St. as an example, if it were open, everybody going to the tall ships would go to/from Tara St, pushing it well over capacity. By closing it, it forces everybody to go to the further away stops. The idea is half would go south to Pearse, the other half would go north to Connolly - meaning that the stations aren't pushed over capacity.

AlekSmart

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

Crowd control. Taking Tara St. as an example, if it were open, everybody going to the tall ships would go to/from Tara St, pushing it well over capacity. By closing it, it forces everybody to go to the further away stops. The idea is half would go south to Pearse, the other half would go north to Connolly - meaning that the stations aren't pushed over capacity.

What the practice really underlines is just how much modern Ireland neglected it's infrastructural development.

What we see with DART and to a great extent with Suburban Rail,is a system firmly rooted in the 19th Century.

DART runs largely along the 1840's alignment and continues to utilise Stations which,up until the DASH programme 2 years ago,had no public lighting between them and the distant footpaths.

Take a look at the access and egress arrangements at Drumcondra Station next time there's a big-match in Croke Park.....

In somewhat typical Irish style,we watched so much of the investment going into shiny new stuff whilst the bricks n mortar stuff was left as it stood.

Sadly it's all too late now.

keith16

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

Crowd control. Taking Tara St. as an example, if it were open, everybody going to the tall ships would go to/from Tara St, pushing it well over capacity. By closing it, it forces everybody to go to the further away stops. The idea is half would go south to Pearse, the other half would go north to Connolly - meaning that the stations aren't pushed over capacity.

I suppose that is a good reason. What if they just laid on extra trains? Would an increased frequency not lessen this burden?

Also, after one of the games I was at last year, the stations remained closed for the whole day. Surely with people hanging around for pints etc, not every body would be rushing to the station at once?

Anyway, suppose I'm nitpicking.

Cookie_Monster

keith16 wrote: »

I suppose that is a good reason.
Also, after one of the games I was at last year, the stations remained closed for the whole day. Surely with people hanging around for pints etc, not every body would be rushing to the station at once?

I don't think it is at all, got a train to the Irl NZ game in Eden park a few weeks back. Most people come by train from the city centre, all free as part of the event and certainly far over the stations capacity but plenty of marshals and restricted entrances and its managed very well.

Typical Irish solution to a problem IMO, rather than use the station to it's full potential and have sufficient staff to manage capacity simply shut it to everyone's detriment

dowlingm

That Tara Street has only the two through platforms is a bit of a strike against it though - makes it difficult to do something like terminate extra Bray services there while having all crossriver services run non-stop to Pearse (reducing the likelihood of people opting to go further than Connolly to get to the "closest" station). When the Loop Line resignalling is complete then there would be more train capacity through Tara Street but then the question is are turnstile/escalator/elevator/platform capacity there to take advantage for an event that primarily slams Tara as opposed to normal commuter flows.

At the end of the day though transport infrastructure in Ireland comes from money hard wrung from DofF and thus must be geared to year-round demand rather than surges with the exception perhaps of a bit of capital expense like redundant elevators.

To my mind the GAA and festivals like Tall Ships should provide more direct compensation to CIE/RPA for the impacts their events have, since event transport is rarely a profitable endeavour. While it's hard to think of how this would work particularly for open/free events, compare to something like the Vancouver Olympics where every event ticket had a transit contribution built into it so that no fares needed to be taken (better loading efficiency, no incentive for evasion, less cash handling, cross subsidy from people who didn't want to bus/subway it to the venues). There was probably a lot of moaning when that was brought in because it raised the ticket price but I assure you as someone who used the transit system a lot it made a huge difference.

Getting Grand Canal Dock sorted as a turnback station is something that will hopefully make Lansdowne events more tolerable - anybody know how that's progressing?

CatFromHue

keith16 wrote: »

Also, after one of the games I was at last year, the stations remained closed for the whole day. Surely with people hanging around for pints etc, not every body would be rushing to the station at once?

Are you sure it was for the whole day?

I know Grand Canal is closed for a few hours after games in the Aviva but that would due to crowd control. Lansdowne Rd. is far better equipped to manage large numbers.

Grand Canal usually opens a few hours later.

markpb

dowlingm wrote: »

To my mind the GAA and festivals like Tall Ships should provide more direct compensation to CIE/RPA for the impacts their events have, since event transport is rarely a profitable endeavour.

I've never quoted myself before but here goes:

markpb wrote: »

Dublin really needs to move towards the model of other cities and either deny event permission for venues that are badly served by public transport, levy a fee on the event organisers to pay for improved public transport for the event or make it a condition of event permission that public transport is provided.

keith16

CatFromHue wrote: »

Are you sure it was for the whole day?

I know Grand Canal is closed for a few hours after games in the Aviva but that would due to crowd control. Lansdowne Rd. is far better equipped to manage large numbers.

Grand Canal usually opens a few hours later.

It must have been the year before last now that I think of it, it was the Leinster v Leicster quarter final.

I stayed around for a good bit after the game for a few pints before deciding to get the last DART home.

Didn't even occur to me that grand canal might be closed. I even brought a few Leicester fans (one of whom was an elderly lady) with me who weren't sure where they were going. I was mortified when we turned up and it was closed

Cookie_Monster

dowlingm wrote: »

Getting Grand Canal Dock sorted as a turnback station is something that will hopefully make Lansdowne events more tolerable - anybody know how that's progressing?

what was the point of pulling up Pearse's 2 additional platforms and ruining it as a terminus/ turnaround only to try and reinstate it at GCD?

end of the road

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what was the point of pulling up Pearse's 2 additional platforms and ruining it as a terminus/ turnaround only to try and reinstate it at GCD?

a good question, i suspect the filling in of platform 3 was a decisian stupidly made at the time as IE felt they didn't need it and now they realise they will need a turnback facility but won't reopen platform 3 or lengthen platform 4 or even do both, platform 4 was filled because apparently it wasn't suitable for modern trains (a bull**** excuse i'd say) did they need platform 5? it was ripped up for a car park. platform 3 could be a terminus platform for the south and 4 for the north, or 4 for the south and 3 for the north. maybe 5 could be reinstated to as a siding should 4 and 3 be ever needed and reinstated?

goingnowhere

All the terminal platforms in Pearse were far too short and facing the wrong direction...

LXFlyer

Because GCD can be used to turnback northern line/Maynooth line services without disrupting through trains.

At present if a train terminates at Pearse, it has to cross the northbound line to access the sidings, thereby using up a path.

The middle platform (currently the northbound one) will become the turnback platform thereby avoiding any conflicts such as that above.

Neither of Pearse's terminal platforms help in any way with that.

Africa

Pretty awful commute this morning. 4 carriage at 9.10 from Connolly. Train was extremely uncomfortable, no breathing space before Pearse, and even then I didnt get a seat on my commute till Sydney Parade when going to Blackrock.

Getting pretty sick of it. Third mail sent to IE complaining.

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

Neither of Pearse's terminal platforms help in any way with that.

but would have been perfectly useful for additional northbound services when a match is on, empty at Lansdowne and run to terminus at Pearse and hold there until needed, would allow 2 trains at Pearse and another at GCD to be stationed close by for quick access afterwards rather than the near farcical closing of the line as is done now.

Losty Dublin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but would have been perfectly useful for additional northbound services when a match is on, empty at Lansdowne and run to terminus at Pearse and hold there until needed, would allow 2 trains at Pearse and another at GCD to be stationed close by for quick access afterwards rather than the near farcical closing of the line as is done now.

To do that, you block the two running lines for up to 20 minutes for these 2 short trains entering and leaving platforms for the sake of just two specials; a set traveling northbound also blocks up two running lines moving onto the Up line. Once those trains are gone, you either repeat the shunting movement just when you need free train paths or else rely on service trains to cope. Over the years running specials on match copes better as it spreads out the rush over the day.

Grand Canal Dock will soon be the northern line DMU terminal of choice so it can't be used as a holding platform.

Cookie_Monster

Losty Dublin wrote: »

To do that, you block the two running lines for up to 20 minutes for these 2 short trains entering and leaving platforms for the sake of just two specials;

why 20 mins? it'd take less than 2 to do the manoeuvre

How long is the line closed for these days with trains sitting at Lansdowne after a match anyway, 20-30 mins, certainly used to be that long.

foggy_lad

Are they still using the 4car darts and shorter commuter trains? Most schools are back this week and most people back from holidays so how is the rush hour commute?

Jamie2k9

Are they still using the 4car darts and shorter commuter trains? Most schools are back this week and most people back from holidays so how is the rush hour commute?

Would say it will be mid September once all collages start.

LEIN

foggy_lad wrote: »

Are they still using the 4car darts and shorter commuter trains? Most schools are back this week and most people back from holidays so how is the rush hour commute?

Yes they are still using 4 car DART's

I gave my seat up to a pregnant lady at Blackrock and had to stand till Bray before getting a seat heading to Grystones.


Will be sending email number 7 today.

Losty Dublin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why 20 mins? it'd take less than 2 to do the manoeuvre

How long is the line closed for these days with trains sitting at Lansdowne after a match anyway, 20-30 mins, certainly used to be that long.

To enter those two sidings, a train is following shunting signals which are operated under different procedures. To access them, a train must pull up to a halt at either Pearse or GCD and contact the signal man being being given permission to proceed. Coming from the Tara Street side, a reverse movement would block up both running tracks were the train to move into the up bay platform. While either movement takes place, the up and down train block from Tara Street to GCD remain closed which in turn holds up trains up and down the network; a lot of delay for just two short one off trains.

The delay of trains after matches was to do with keeping the crossing open to clear people out of the stadium. There is now an underpass and better access routes into and out of the new stadium and into the station itself which is helping enormously. There's also a fear that a train leaving immediately after kick off causes a surge towards the station; delaying departures alleviates this

Africa

This 4 car thing is bloody disgraceful. They have to be losing customers over this. The BUS is more comfortable than the trains at the moment.

Complaint 4 sent today myself DD9090

dowlingm

I wonder how much space would be freed up if Seamus Brennan's 2006 decision to give DSW pass holders access at peak was reversed?

Africa

dowlingm wrote: »

I wonder how much space would be freed up if Seamus Brennan's 2006 decision to give DSW pass holders access at peak was reversed?

At rush hour? Not a lot. In fact id say very, very little.