Irish Rail - 4 Carriage DARTs and rising fares (speculation)

Africa

Recently, the huge majority of Darts being run in Dublin have been 4 carriages. They are always packed, and its astounding that they are being used in rush hour times in the evening, and Ive also seen been on a few in the mornings just after 9. I only commute from Blackrock to Pearse and the amount of times Ive had to stand cause of lack of seats is ridiculous, and this is only since they have downsized them, making the journey a lot less comfortable. Definitely see this adding to the reduced numbers of commuters since its less comfortable now while prices go up. Since Im paying what is a rather expensive monthly ticket, I would expect a seat. Yet, getting on at Blackrock going to Pearse, I rarely do; the trains are PACKED. Not enjoyable at all.

Yet they want to raise prices? Insane. No wonder they are losing commuters so much, with slow, overcrowded short trains at crazy prices.

Varadkar out. Worst thing to happen to the transport sector in Irish history. Feel that its driving the public transport sector into the ground. Good infrastructure requires a good transport system to survive.

schemingbohemia

Huge Majority of DARTS are 4-car sets? They've certainly decreased the number of 8-car sets but the majority are still 8-car sets.

zagmund

Ignoring the whole 4/6/8 car issue for the moment, I think you will find that commuter railways around the world are designed to accommodate large numbers of standing passengers. Would you expect to get a seat on the tube in London at rush hour, when joining a train that has already taken on people at 10-15 stations ?

With long distance intercity trains you *may* have a point if you booked a seat as well as a travel ticket, but on suburban railway anywhere in the world you are not guaranteed a seat.

If you think the trains are full now, wait a week or two until the schools come back. Then you will know all about packed trains. However, this will most likely co-incide with IE re-introducing those extra cars. At least it better.

z

Boulevardier

Hopefully the Darts will revert to at least 6 cars once September starts.

If not, LXflyer or someone like him will doubtless come on the thread to tell us why 4 car darts are necessary and why there is no alternative.

ArmaniJeanss

zagmund wrote: »

Ignoring the whole 4/6/8 car issue for the moment, I think you will find that commuter railways around the world are designed to accommodate large numbers of standing passengers. Would you expect to get a seat on the tube in London at rush hour, when joining a train that has already taken on people at 10-15 stations ?
z

One difference with the Tube is that you are more likely to get a seat after a few stops of discomfort, as people are continually getting off at stations along the way.
Whereas the early morning Dart has 95%, maybe more of passengers planning to get off at the same 3 stations.

Africa

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Huge Majority of DARTS are 4-car sets? They've certainly decreased the number of 8-car sets but the majority are still 8-car sets.

No, they really arent. I commute at several differnet times of the day, anywhere between 8.45am->10.30am, and then back from 3pm->8pm. Id say 90% of the DARTS then are 4 carriages.

Forgot about the schools. Christ. Thats gonna be even worse.

But they are packed as it is with the 4 carriage model. Thats why its astounding that nothing has being said in the metro or anything.

Poster there has my point; everyones going to the same place, on the same line. They should have more frequent and longer darts for the closer areas. Often I find myself waiting 20 minutes for a Dart.

KD345

Africa wrote: »

Often I find myself waiting 20 minutes for a Dart.

Would you try the 4, 7 or 46E? They use QBCs and have a higher frequency than the Dart.

Victor

Boulevardier wrote: »

If not, LXflyer or someone like him will doubtless come on the thread to tell us why 4 car darts are necessary and why there is no alternative.

Play nice.

Moderator

Victor

Africa wrote: »

Since Im paying what is a rather expensive monthly ticket, I would expect a seat.

Do you avail of taxsaver.ie ?

Yet they want to raise prices?

Has there been any mention of a price increase?

Marcusm

That's a 12-15 minutes commute; to be in anyway efficient as regards use of stock, I would expect 1/2-2/3rds of the passengers to have to stand or that length of journey. Any less and it's likely to be completely uneconomic/Rolls Royce service.

Jamie2k9

The reduction is because of summer hoildays. ie-schools, collages and many business close for about 2 weeks over the summer. Would expect that normal 8 carrages will be back by mid september when everybody starts back working or studying.

It happens most years so I don't see a problem.

monument

Africa wrote: »

Thats why its astounding that nothing has being said in the metro or anything.

To be fair to Metro, it isn't exactly the most comprehensive newspaper in the world. Coverage in The Irish Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0801/1224321232898.html

n97 mini

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The reduction is because of summer hoildays. ie-schools, collages and many business close for about 2 weeks over the summer. Would expect that normal 8 carrages will be back by mid september when everybody starts back working or studying.

It happens most years so I don't see a problem.

Many public sector, a lot of whom are based in the city centre, also go on a reduced working week during the school summer holidays.

Many can also avail of "family friendly" working where they can take the entire summer off (and get paid for 9 months of the year, but spread out over 12).

Africa

monument wrote: »

To be fair to Metro, it isn't exactly the most comprehensive newspaper in the world. Coverage in The Irish Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0801/1224321232898.html

Ah! Something concrete! I meant in the Letters page from normal people. Turns out yesterday there was one!

Well, if its seasonal, I guess that kinda makes sense. Its definitely never been this bad before though. Its hugely uncomfortable on these 4 carriage darts in the mornings/evenings to/from work, absolutely packed at the best of times on the normal 6/8 carriage versions but fitting the same into 4 is near barbaric. Feel like an Indian man on the Delhi->Mumbai trains.

Train fare rises arent really speculative. Sure havent they applied for to raise them for a second time this year, before the budget? Budget will raise them again, sure of that.

LXFlyer

The next fare increase will not be until 2013.

Papers got the wrong end of that one.

Africa

Promised myself if they go up again Id get a bike. Looks like I'll have a few more months, but Januarys are cold for cycling... XD

N64

Perhaps they should pave over the tracks and make it into a cycle lane? You would be faster cycling than using the dart.

eigrod

The 16.58 from Tara St. to Greystones yesterday was 4 carriages.

1) This is not "off peak" commuting time and this train is usually standing room only from Sandymount to Greystones when there are 8 carriages
2) A large number of commuters (including a group of about 25 Italian students) were at the platform ready to board.
3) Chaos ensued at the platform as half the people had to run toward the front of the platform to get to the train as it pulled in.
4) It was packed when leaving Tara St.
5) From Grand Canal Dock, people were unable to board.
6) It was desperately desperately uncomfortable for people standing.
7) Even the 2 security men that were on board were complaining about it.

A ridiculous decision by IE and utterly putting the paying customer at the bottom of their priority list with this decision.

bk

People having to stand is expected on mass transit. People being left behind on the platform because there isn't enough space isn't acceptable where the next train is more then 5 minutes away.

On such a service the DART should have only been reduced to 6 cars, not 4. Clearly 4 isn't enough.

I believe that due to some stupidity in ordering DARTS by Irish Rail, they can only be 4 or 8 carriages long. Which doesn't give them enough flexibility.

eigrod

bk wrote: »

People having to stand is expected on mass transit. People being left behind on the platform because there isn't enough space isn't acceptable where the next train is more then 5 minutes away.On such a service the DART should have only been reduced to 6 cars, not 4. Clearly 4 isn't enough.

I believe that due to some stupidity in ordering DARTS by Irish Rail, they can only be 4 or 8 carriages long. Which doesn't give them enough flexibility.

In the case of getting to Greystones, the next train is 30 minutes away. And what if that one was 4 carriages also ?

Utterly senseless by IrishRail.

Captain Chaos

bk wrote: »

I believe that due to some stupidity in ordering DARTS by Irish Rail, they can only be 4 or 8 carriages long. Which doesn't give them enough flexibility.

The original DARTs ordered in 1983 can be put in 2,4,6,8 formations. The new ones ordered in 2002 onwards can be 4 or 8 only.

All the old DARTs should be left as 6 car sets and the new ones as 4 or 8 as demand requires. That's the way it used to be up until this summer and there were no problems.

bk

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The new ones ordered in 2002 onwards can be 4 or 8 only.

This bit sounds like another monumentally stupid decision by Irish Rail.

There really is a too big of a gap between 4 and 8. While numbers are down during the summer, they wouldn't be down 50%.

zagmund

N64 wrote: »

Perhaps they should pave over the tracks and make it into a cycle lane? You would be faster cycling than using the dart.

I cycle from East Point to Blackrock and save myself 10-15 minutes on average. The *worst thing* is getting to Clontarf Road and seeing "14 minutes" on the display. In those 14 minutes I would be half way home on a slow day on the bike.

The other worst thing is just missing a train by seconds after walking the length of the station back from East Point direction, getting through the turnstiles, running back down the platform to catch the 4 car train which pulled in as far away from the entrance as possible . . . and then seeing it pull in and sit for a few minutes worth of driver change 100m down the line at the depot.

Yes, it's one of those days.

z

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I don't see a problem.

how about the fact their being reduced on peak time services where 6 or 8 cars are required regardless of colleges/schools/businesses closing? fair enough on the off peak services but not on the known to be highly used services or peak time services.

dowlingm

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The original DARTs ordered in 1983 can be put in 2,4,6,8 formations. The new ones ordered in 2002 onwards can be 4 or 8 only.

My understanding was that 8100s or (heh) 8200s could be marshalled with 8500s to create 6 car sets?

Captain Chaos

dowlingm wrote: »

My understanding was that 8100s or (heh) 8200s could be marshalled with 8500s to create 6 car sets?

Yeah, they used to do that. The 8200s are a lost cause at this stage. The 8100s used to be put with 8500s to make 6 car sets before all the platforms were long enough for 8 car trains. Since the 8100s had their mid life refurb they have never worked with the 8500s since. I don't know if they are compatible with each other any more. Even before the refurb not all 8100s were compatible with the 8500s, the 8100s that were had a green sticker on the center window of the cabs. Some must have had a quick stop gap mod done at Fairview.

Victor

bk wrote: »

This bit sounds like another monumentally stupid decision by Irish Rail.

There really is a too big of a gap between 4 and 8. While numbers are down during the summer, they wouldn't be down 50%.

http://www.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=123&n=211

For the moment, the 4-car trains can be used for 4- or 8-car trains. They make better use of train length by not having a cab on all carriages like the originals (8100 and 8300 cars).

Currently, after ~28 years, there are 76 out of 80 of the originals left. By the time there numbers become problematic that you can't form 6-car trains, they will have to have had others delivered.

bk

Thanks Victor, the question so is, why aren't they being used in this configuration at the moment?

TheJak01

Maybe the prayers have been answered with a days turnover? Was on an 8 car dart northbound from Booterstown at 14:50, and the Dart I got back out from Pearse was also 8 carriages just after 5.

I have noticed with me having to take the Dart more often over the summer that I have had to make the dreaded run all the way up the platform more often than I normally do, but I was pleasantly surprised that I was able to board the train from the ticket office in Booterstown, without a crazy sprint after the train.

I was surprised on the way home though. There was a two car 8100 set on the way home leading a 6 car set. I know that the 8100's can be run in 2 car sets, but it's not something I've seen very often, though to be fair it's not something I've been looking out for for very long. Out of interest, is it something that's done often, or is it a fairly common occurrence that I've simply missed by never having to take the Dart at rush hour?

Captain Chaos

TheJak01 wrote: »

I was surprised on the way home though. There was a two car 8100 set on the way home leading a 6 car set. I know that the 8100's can be run in 2 car sets, but it's not something I've seen very often, though to be fair it's not something I've been looking out for for very long. Out of interest, is it something that's done often, or is it a fairly common occurrence that I've simply missed by never having to take the Dart at rush hour?

Are you sure?, DART units have not run as mixed sets since 2007. They keep all the 8100s and 8500s to their own types now. What you may notice the odd time is an 8500/10 set with an 8520. These stand out as the 8500/10s have round profile roofs while the 8520s have flat roofs with the air con units exposed on top.

I have not seen an 8100/8500 mixed formation in 5 years and none have been spotted or reported on the Irish Railway News website. Next to nothing gets past them over there. There is a first time for everything on IE though.

TheJak01

Pretty sure it was a 2 car 8100 in front of a 6 car 8100, I may be slightly off on the set up, but I do definitely remembering the two car set out front, which I thought of as slightly unusual. It might just be me being stupid minded and miscounting (stress of accepting college courses can do that to you, so it may have been a 2 car set in front of a 4 car, which I presume would make more sense? Though, 6 care 8100 set's aren't particularly out of the ordinary are they?

Captain Chaos

TheJak01 wrote: »

Though, 6 car 8100 set's aren't particularly out of the ordinary are they?

They would tend to be the most common lately.

TheJak01

Right, well in that case I was probably correct with the 2 car set in front of a 6 car set, 8100's all down the line. Not sure if I mentioned 8500's but I apologise for the confusion.

So, any idea how common the two car set of 8100's actually is? Gotten very used to 4 car sets on the recent runs I've done on the line and wanted to know if this is actually something unusual or if I'm just a bit unobservant and just haven't noticed it in the past.

foggy_lad

TheJak01 wrote: »

Pretty sure it was a 2 car 8100 in front of a 6 car 8100, I may be slightly off on the set up, but I do definitely remembering the two car set out front, which I thought of as slightly unusual. It might just be me being stupid minded and miscounting (stress of accepting college courses can do that to you, so it may have been a 2 car set in front of a 4 car, which I presume would make more sense? Though, 6 care 8100 set's aren't particularly out of the ordinary are they?

Are the 8100 not all 2 car sets? Afaik there are no 6car dart vehicles only combinations of 2car sets so what you saw was 2+2+2+2 not 6+2

eigrod

Where are the savings made by reducing the number of carriages to 4 ? Is it simply energy savings, and if so, would they be considerable in the overall Irish Rail costs ?

bk

eigrod wrote: »

Where are the savings made by reducing the number of carriages to 4 ? Is it simply energy savings, and if so, would they be considerable in the overall Irish Rail costs ?

Energy savings and maybe reduced wear and tear.

No the savings wouldn't be significant. Wages are IR's biggest cost by far.

Perhaps they also use this downtime in the summer months to do increased maintenance and refurbishments.

Captain Chaos

bk wrote: »

Perhaps they also use this downtime in the summer months to do increased maintenance and refurbishments.

That's what I was thinking of back when all this started. When the DARTs were reduced to 4 car formations this summer there seemed to be less of the 8500s around and more 8100s covering and operating as 8 car formations which they hardly ever do as it's better suited to 8500s.

It got me thinking that maybe they were fitting WiFi to the newer units first. IE made a statement that all DARTs would be fitted with WiFi by the end of the year.

keith16

hey all, slightly off topic but I'm just curious.

Why are some DART stations closed for big events nearby? AFAIK, Tara St. was closed as the tall ships festival was on. Also, I remember Grand Canal Dock and Lansdowne Road being closed after a number of games at Lansdowne?

Why would they do this? Is there a single good reason?

maggy_thatcher

keith16 wrote: »

hey all, slightly off topic but I'm just curious.

Why are some DART stations closed for big events nearby? AFAIK, Tara St. was closed as the tall ships festival was on. Also, I remember Grand Canal Dock and Lansdowne Road being closed after a number of games at Lansdowne?

Why would they do this? Is there a single good reason?

Crowd control. Taking Tara St. as an example, if it were open, everybody going to the tall ships would go to/from Tara St, pushing it well over capacity. By closing it, it forces everybody to go to the further away stops. The idea is half would go south to Pearse, the other half would go north to Connolly - meaning that the stations aren't pushed over capacity.

AlekSmart

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

Crowd control. Taking Tara St. as an example, if it were open, everybody going to the tall ships would go to/from Tara St, pushing it well over capacity. By closing it, it forces everybody to go to the further away stops. The idea is half would go south to Pearse, the other half would go north to Connolly - meaning that the stations aren't pushed over capacity.

What the practice really underlines is just how much modern Ireland neglected it's infrastructural development.

What we see with DART and to a great extent with Suburban Rail,is a system firmly rooted in the 19th Century.

DART runs largely along the 1840's alignment and continues to utilise Stations which,up until the DASH programme 2 years ago,had no public lighting between them and the distant footpaths.

Take a look at the access and egress arrangements at Drumcondra Station next time there's a big-match in Croke Park.....

In somewhat typical Irish style,we watched so much of the investment going into shiny new stuff whilst the bricks n mortar stuff was left as it stood.

Sadly it's all too late now.

keith16

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

Crowd control. Taking Tara St. as an example, if it were open, everybody going to the tall ships would go to/from Tara St, pushing it well over capacity. By closing it, it forces everybody to go to the further away stops. The idea is half would go south to Pearse, the other half would go north to Connolly - meaning that the stations aren't pushed over capacity.

I suppose that is a good reason. What if they just laid on extra trains? Would an increased frequency not lessen this burden?

Also, after one of the games I was at last year, the stations remained closed for the whole day. Surely with people hanging around for pints etc, not every body would be rushing to the station at once?

Anyway, suppose I'm nitpicking.

Cookie_Monster

keith16 wrote: »

I suppose that is a good reason.
Also, after one of the games I was at last year, the stations remained closed for the whole day. Surely with people hanging around for pints etc, not every body would be rushing to the station at once?

I don't think it is at all, got a train to the Irl NZ game in Eden park a few weeks back. Most people come by train from the city centre, all free as part of the event and certainly far over the stations capacity but plenty of marshals and restricted entrances and its managed very well.

Typical Irish solution to a problem IMO, rather than use the station to it's full potential and have sufficient staff to manage capacity simply shut it to everyone's detriment

dowlingm

That Tara Street has only the two through platforms is a bit of a strike against it though - makes it difficult to do something like terminate extra Bray services there while having all crossriver services run non-stop to Pearse (reducing the likelihood of people opting to go further than Connolly to get to the "closest" station). When the Loop Line resignalling is complete then there would be more train capacity through Tara Street but then the question is are turnstile/escalator/elevator/platform capacity there to take advantage for an event that primarily slams Tara as opposed to normal commuter flows.

At the end of the day though transport infrastructure in Ireland comes from money hard wrung from DofF and thus must be geared to year-round demand rather than surges with the exception perhaps of a bit of capital expense like redundant elevators.

To my mind the GAA and festivals like Tall Ships should provide more direct compensation to CIE/RPA for the impacts their events have, since event transport is rarely a profitable endeavour. While it's hard to think of how this would work particularly for open/free events, compare to something like the Vancouver Olympics where every event ticket had a transit contribution built into it so that no fares needed to be taken (better loading efficiency, no incentive for evasion, less cash handling, cross subsidy from people who didn't want to bus/subway it to the venues). There was probably a lot of moaning when that was brought in because it raised the ticket price but I assure you as someone who used the transit system a lot it made a huge difference.

Getting Grand Canal Dock sorted as a turnback station is something that will hopefully make Lansdowne events more tolerable - anybody know how that's progressing?

CatFromHue

keith16 wrote: »

Also, after one of the games I was at last year, the stations remained closed for the whole day. Surely with people hanging around for pints etc, not every body would be rushing to the station at once?

Are you sure it was for the whole day?

I know Grand Canal is closed for a few hours after games in the Aviva but that would due to crowd control. Lansdowne Rd. is far better equipped to manage large numbers.

Grand Canal usually opens a few hours later.

markpb

dowlingm wrote: »

To my mind the GAA and festivals like Tall Ships should provide more direct compensation to CIE/RPA for the impacts their events have, since event transport is rarely a profitable endeavour.

I've never quoted myself before but here goes:

markpb wrote: »

Dublin really needs to move towards the model of other cities and either deny event permission for venues that are badly served by public transport, levy a fee on the event organisers to pay for improved public transport for the event or make it a condition of event permission that public transport is provided.

keith16

CatFromHue wrote: »

Are you sure it was for the whole day?

I know Grand Canal is closed for a few hours after games in the Aviva but that would due to crowd control. Lansdowne Rd. is far better equipped to manage large numbers.

Grand Canal usually opens a few hours later.

It must have been the year before last now that I think of it, it was the Leinster v Leicster quarter final.

I stayed around for a good bit after the game for a few pints before deciding to get the last DART home.

Didn't even occur to me that grand canal might be closed. I even brought a few Leicester fans (one of whom was an elderly lady) with me who weren't sure where they were going. I was mortified when we turned up and it was closed

Cookie_Monster

dowlingm wrote: »

Getting Grand Canal Dock sorted as a turnback station is something that will hopefully make Lansdowne events more tolerable - anybody know how that's progressing?

what was the point of pulling up Pearse's 2 additional platforms and ruining it as a terminus/ turnaround only to try and reinstate it at GCD?

end of the road

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what was the point of pulling up Pearse's 2 additional platforms and ruining it as a terminus/ turnaround only to try and reinstate it at GCD?

a good question, i suspect the filling in of platform 3 was a decisian stupidly made at the time as IE felt they didn't need it and now they realise they will need a turnback facility but won't reopen platform 3 or lengthen platform 4 or even do both, platform 4 was filled because apparently it wasn't suitable for modern trains (a bull**** excuse i'd say) did they need platform 5? it was ripped up for a car park. platform 3 could be a terminus platform for the south and 4 for the north, or 4 for the south and 3 for the north. maybe 5 could be reinstated to as a siding should 4 and 3 be ever needed and reinstated?

goingnowhere

All the terminal platforms in Pearse were far too short and facing the wrong direction...

LXFlyer

Because GCD can be used to turnback northern line/Maynooth line services without disrupting through trains.

At present if a train terminates at Pearse, it has to cross the northbound line to access the sidings, thereby using up a path.

The middle platform (currently the northbound one) will become the turnback platform thereby avoiding any conflicts such as that above.

Neither of Pearse's terminal platforms help in any way with that.

Africa

Pretty awful commute this morning. 4 carriage at 9.10 from Connolly. Train was extremely uncomfortable, no breathing space before Pearse, and even then I didnt get a seat on my commute till Sydney Parade when going to Blackrock.

Getting pretty sick of it. Third mail sent to IE complaining.