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Forum beers - Saturday, 1st September, Dublin
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Nope. I've a hot date with Dana that eveningDoctor DooM wrote: »It's often said that the theme of the whole series since it began is that "intellect and romance triumphs over brute force and cynicism." You can even buy a t shirt that says that.
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Doctor DooM wrote: »Ok, after this post I will stop off topicing, but IMO Dr Who is definitely one of the "good" programmes out there.
It's kids TV which has established the following in the new series- which is only the smallest fragment of its run:
In the future, no one cares what sexuality you are. Old women are shown as a married couple, and no one flinches or even passes comment. A male companion flirts with the Doctor as much as some of the female. Never is it played out in a camp way: these are merely subtle parts to the characters (in the case of Jack Harkness, he was pretty much the action hero of the piece. Compare that to most modern tv's depiction of gay or bi men.)
"The church" is an out and out military organisation, in which things like priests and bishops are ranks.
The devil of ancient human legends is simply an alien of immense power from before our time, and can be tricked and beaten with sufficient scientific knowledge and brainpower.
Angels are the most evil thing in existence. DO. NOT. BLINK.
The ancient oracles of roman times were off their tits on volcanic gasses.
The magic of witches et al in our own past are simply sufficiently advanced science and cease to be threatening or amazing when understood.
Vampires are fish.
The main character is a powerful, old entity who is mistaken by many to be a/the god, but when his hubris leads him to act as one and start believing it, the natural forces of the universe reassert themselves and punish him with "death".
The same character, who is a heroic figure often, makes difficult choices so others do not have to bear that burden, such as lying to an alternate version of a companion and effectively leaving her to die. Heroism is not patriotism or being a super hero in the Who universe: it's trying to do your best in impossible circumstances, which I believe is a much better message for kids.
It could be argued that the entire first 5 series overarcing plot was about the true horros of war: The doctor is a character who has commited genocide to save the rest of the universe from his own race, and he is a sometimes angry, manic and unpredictable "god" for the first 2 series or so until his "humanity" reasserts itself. He pretty much says this at the end of series 4.
It's often said that the theme of the whole series since it began is that "intellect and romance triumphs over brute force and cynicism." You can even buy a t shirt that says that.
Not to mention the series started as a part educational science series for kids- what more do you need?
So you know all of that but you still don't know enough to know that it's Doctor Who and never Dr Who.:(
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Wish I could make it. Got a local event on that night. Next time though.
Now as for the DoctorDoctor DooM wrote: »Angels are the most evil thing in existence. DO. NOT. BLINK.
Meh, scariest possibly, very possibly; most evil, not a chance. I see your weeping angels and raise you Fenric.Doctor DooM wrote: »Vampires are fish.
Except of course when they're actually vampires.Doctor DooM wrote: »The main character is a powerful, old entity who is mistaken by many to be a/the god, but when his hubris leads him to act as one and start believing it, the natural forces of the universe reassert themselves and punish him with "death".
The same character, who is a heroic figure often, makes difficult choices so others do not have to bear that burden, such as lying to an alternate version of a companion and effectively leaving her to die. Heroism is not patriotism or being a super hero in the Who universe: it's trying to do your best in impossible circumstances, which I believe is a much better message for kids.
It could be argued that the entire first 5 series overarcing plot was about the true horros of war: The doctor is a character who has commited genocide to save the rest of the universe from his own race, and he is a sometimes angry, manic and unpredictable "god" for the first 2 series or so until his "humanity" reasserts itself. He pretty much says this at the end of series 4.
Excuse me? Surely you mean Series 27-31.;)
I see where you're coming from but I can't say that I agree, especially when you incorporate the entire canon. Personally, as far as the Doctor's character is concerned I think that we're going to see the biggest slow burn storyline in the show in the near future. I mean this thing is going to make the Bad Wolf teasers look positively blatant by comparison. There has been a trend developing since the 7th doctor which has been escalating since the events of the Time War. The doctor is becoming increasingly dark, cold and brutal. Have a look at the 9th Doctor's "Dalek", the 10th Doctor's "Runaway Bride and the 11th Doctor's "The Beast Below" (particularly where he comments "When we're done here you're going home"). Add to this the Dream Lord and I think that the writers are slowly building toward an appearance of The Valeyard.
As I said, when you look at the entire canon the Doctor's character appears quite different. I don't see the Doctor as being a hero in difficult circumstances, I think the real message of the time from "Rose" to "The Pandorica Opens" is a parallel of the core message from the Dark Knight: "Either you die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."0 -
Wish I could make it. Got a local event on that night. Next time though.
Now as for the Doctor
Meh, scariest possibly, very possibly; most evil, not a chance. I see your weeping angels and raise you Fenric.
Except of course when they're actually vampires.
Excuse me? Surely you mean Series 27-31.;)
I see where you're coming from but I can't say that I agree, especially when you incorporate the entire canon. Personally, as far as the Doctor's character is concerned I think that we're going to see the biggest slow burn storyline in the show in the near future. I mean this thing is going to make the Bad Wolf teasers look positively blatant by comparison. There has been a trend developing since the 7th doctor which has been escalating since the events of the Time War. The doctor is becoming increasingly dark, cold and brutal. Have a look at the 9th Doctor's "Dalek", the 10th Doctor's "Runaway Bride and the 11th Doctor's "The Beast Below" (particularly where he comments "When we're done here you're going home"). Add to this the Dream Lord and I think that the writers are slowly building toward an appearance of The Valeyard.
As I said, when you look at the entire canon the Doctor's character appears quite different. I don't see the Doctor as being a hero in difficult circumstances, I think the real message of the time from "Rose" to "The Pandorica Opens" is a parallel of the core message from the Dark Knight: "Either you die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
I was specifically speaking of the new series (which as much as I agree with you, are officially known as series 1-6, via fnarg)and I don't think you can really say that the Doctor is becoming darker, as when he does he inevitabley pays a price: Dalek was right after the Doctor had killed his own race and he blamed the Dalek: Runaway Bride is specifically mentioned later in the series as a moment when he was still hurting from the Time war too: and the Pandorica opens is part of the storyline where the legend of the "God" Doctor has become too much so he must destroy his own legend and return to the shadows. In the beast below he is proved wrong (or if we're speculating wildly, Amy was being tested) and in fact is ultimately shown to be incredibly humane (things which are old cannot bare the tears of the young, especially the incredibly old, etc).
That said, I think what you're saying is interesting when you do include the whole canon, although I don't think that's where they are going. It was well known 7 was planned to head down a darker route before the classic series was canned. It was also well known the Valeyards story was messed up at the last minute (man, I love that serial, even with the botched ending).
In my personal canon as yours, the Dream Lord is an embryonic Valeyard too, and while I hope he evolves into him, I am not sure if he will- Moffat's not big on bringing in old elements in a big way, as can be seen by the virtual disappearance of the old cast in nearly every way.0 -
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I actually thought the beast below was about how humane he is as well, strict rules about not interfering... except when there's kids in trouble. And feeling so sorry for the beast and the torture the humans put it through that he wanted to distance himself from them
all okay once amy fixed it
what about the maze episode where he had to break her trust in him to save her? i mean that was very touching as well and not easily done for a big baddie0 -
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I actually thought the beast below was about how humane he is as well, strict rules about not interfering... except when there's kids in trouble. And feeling so sorry for the beast and the torture the humans put it through that he wanted to distance himself from them
all okay once amy fixed it
what about the maze episode where he had to break her trust in him to save her? i mean that was very touching as well and not easily done for a big baddie
OK, first off, the humanity (i.e. the qualities of being humane not human) is less important than his outburst, particularly the lines "Oh, I don't care. When I'm done here you're going home", "you're only human" and "Nobody talk to me. Nobody human has anything to say to me today." There are two things to note here. Firstly, we expect The Doctor mostly to be kind and compassionate and heroic, so when he acts like that it's just par for the course. It's when he acts contrary to expectation that we sit up and take notice. His outburst made me at least go, whoa, where did that come from? Secondly, the middle quote "you're only human" is representative of a condescending and dismissive tone from The Doctor that hearks back to the Fourth and Seventh Doctors. It is also referenced in the newer series when Davros accuses the Doctor of basically using humans as pawns in a series of flashbacks.
Now, as for the maze episode, I'm not saying that the Doctor is going to get worse episode by episode. I'm saying that there is a permeating darkness to the new incarnations of the Doctor which is steadily building. I mean for one thing, the "no-second chances, I'm that sort of a man" attitude in the 10th Doctor doesn't seem to have been retained in the 11th Doctor. Between The Beast Below, Idris, The Silence and a couple of other moments, we've seen glimpses that this Doctor has a deep darkness behind the typical Doctor exuberance.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9P4SxtphJ4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mClAvlC9AAI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w17BEALiHU
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