Where'd all the old trains go?

Oscar Bravo

Ah the good old days.071 class+Mk3s to Dublin.the lovely smell in the MK3'S,full Irish breakfast on board,dodgey announcements,telegraph poles alongside the line,Jointed track,mabey even a loco failure along the way....and a lovely selection of Rolling Stock/Locos on arrival in Heuston.Cravens,MK2's,Mk2ab's,Dutch Vans etc etc.... all a distant memory,but good times.

end of the road

Oscar Bravo wrote: »

Ah the good old days.071 class+Mk3s to Dublin.the lovely smell in the MK3'S,full Irish breakfast on board,dodgey announcements,telegraph poles alongside the line,Jointed track,mabey even a loco failure along the way....and a lovely selection of Rolling Stock/Locos on arrival in Heuston.Cravens,MK2's,Mk2ab's,Dutch Vans etc etc.... all a distant memory,but good times.

here here, RIP to the good old days and times of proper trains on a proper railway.

Solair

All I remember about the Cork-Dublin service before the Mark 4 launch was that it was totally inconsistent and often really poor quality. It may not have been the rolling stock's fault, but it was pretty grim.

You couldn't guarantee it would be a Mark 3 train, it was sometimes decrepit Mark 2 or worse, a Cravens set, or worse still a commuter DMU!

The Mark 3 trains weren't all that comfortable. The air conditioning / heating often didn't work and resulted in trains being excessively warm or cold. The lighting was very dull. They always smelt like a GAA club bar due to all the decades of beer soakage into the carpets which were clearly never washed or replaced. The seats were quite uncomfortable if you were more than 4ft tall due to the shape of the neck rest part which caused you to end up with your neck crooked over all the time. The toilets were tiny and often very dirty.
There were no adequate baby change facilities and no disabled toilet access at all as far as I am aware.
There were no announcements on a lot of trains, or totally sporadic ones made when crews felt like it.

Also, the wonderful catering service that people go on about wasn't very wonderful at all. All I remember was the 'snack bar' never had anything you'd ask for and the dining car menu was clearly drawn up by a 1970s greasy spoon café. Deep fried everything and omelets.

The current MK4 catering service isn't great, but it's at least consistent and seems nice and clean and tidy.

Also, I have to say that the trolley service on the MK4s is excellent. It's well stocked, comes around frequently and is very friendly.

In the MK3 days the trolley service was basically tea / coffee and occasionally a CIE Cuisine Classic : chicken and stuffing sandwich. Often the trolley service just didn't show up at all.

Also, in the MK3 days over-crowding was common (at full price ticket). I remember on numerous occasions having to sit on the floor to get to Cork and still paying a huge fee for the privilege.

All in all, the service in 2012 is DRASTICALLY better than it was in say 2003.

Most stations are clean, tidy, well lit, look nice and have good announcements.
Trains are tidy, clean, modern and seem generally quite efficient.
Ticketing and frequencies seem a hell of a lot better too.

From the customers' point of view, the new trains are a major improvement.

Cookie_Monster

oh give me back the days of cravens with holes in the floor pulled by 141's that you can't even see the orange on they're so filthy over the horrid soulless crappy 22ks

22ks are like all modern cars and appliances IMO, designed to look good at the expense of everything else and only built to last 10 years rather than 30-50 like everything used to be. A few years and they'll be a total shambles

Solair

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

oh give me back the days of cravens with holes in the floor pulled by 141's that you can't even see the orange on they're so filthy over the horrid soulless crappy 22ks

22ks are like all modern cars and appliances IMO, designed to look good at the expense of everything else and only built to last 10 years rather than 30-50 like everything used to be. A few years and they'll be a total shambles

I doubt that, given they are built out of the same kind of materials as you find on a modern train / aircraft interior anywhere in the world and are specified to last!

Old doesn't always = better and New doesn't always = 'rubbish'.

end of the road

new trains are all well and good but if the tracks aren't good enough to take them at their full speed or near to it then theirs a problem, it wasn't the new trains stopped the overcrowding passenger numbers have dropped to. i would suggest that cookie monster has a point, all the new trains will go through the same IE maintenence procedures which will mean pannels not put back fully and rattling around and much more. IE need to up the standards to make sure these last as long as mechanically and structurely possible as they won't be getting money for new ones if they get board of these.
at solair are you serious? they put a commuter railcar on a dublin cork service? i've realy heard it all now.

Solair

Yup, I did Cork-Dublin on a 29000 back in the 'transition period' before the MK4s were rolled out

It happened more than once too!

I think they were short a Cravens set or something, but it was basically like a 3 hour journey on the DART only with more engine noise.

I though the tracks were being upgraded to the correct specification for 200km/h running during the current relaying projects?

I know the CAF Mark 4s suddenly run nice and normally smoothly, like a continental train, when they're no that new bit of track near Portlaoise.

I thought maintenance has been changed too ? That new Portlaoise Railcare facility seems to carry ROTEM and CAF branding.

The poor old BREL fleets seemed to get treated very roughly by IE.

goingnowhere

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The Mk3s in the UK have had great refurb mods based on the BREL Mk4s.

ONLY the GNER ones

The Mk3s now running in the UK are better than our CAF Mk4s. They have automatic plug doors that are wider for wheelchairs and the corridors have been widened too. All the latest mod cons fitted and run every day at 125mph. The Mk3s are good till 2020-25.

Its only 20 Mk3 coach overhauled at a huge expense by one company, and at 100 mph only

We have LHB DARTs built around the same time as our Mk3s and they will still be going to 2020 after the refurb they went through. They are based on a 1970s design like the Mk3s.

Not so LHB units were absolutely state of the art in 1983 with solid state traction systems, level correcting suspension, atp and ato provision, while the UK was still playing with camshaft controllers from the 1940's and two man operation. 500k per coach to overhaul. Mk3 is strictly speaking a 1960's design.

Losty Dublin

Solair wrote: »

Yup, I did Cork-Dublin on a 29000 back in the 'transition period' before the MK4s were rolled out

It happened more than once too!

I think they were short a Cravens set or something, but it was basically like a 3 hour journey on the DART only with more engine noise.
.

I'll better that. In the mid 90's, there were a few Dublin Cork train which were rostered for a 2 car 2600 set. They were used to transfer the Cobh sets between Inchicore and Cork for servicing and as a rule on mid morning trains only. However, they saw service at times standing in for failures from Cork and the odd relief on unexpectly busy occasions. More recently, there was a Sunday only Dublin-Galway and Galway-Dublin worked by a 4 car set 2800 set. It relieved the heavy weekend traffic on the line out of Galway and while uncomfortable, it offered extra capacity on the line. The 80 Class railcars saw relief and standby work on the Belfast services until the C3K sets were in traffic; I don't know if a Castle got down this far.

Oscar Bravo

Quote "22ks are like all modern cars and appliances IMO, designed to look good at the expense of everything else and only built to last 10 years rather than 30-50 like everything used to be. A few years and they'll be a total shambles"- FACT!!

Sligo Quay

MK3s sadly never saw regular service on the Sligo line, maybe a MK3 executive special an odd time, whatever happen to the MK3 executive coaches, I remember a Harp beer special Dundalk / Sligo about 20years ago, nice coaches with fancy armchairs and a nice bar.

Sligo Quay

Sligo Quay wrote: »

MK3s sadly never saw regular service on the Sligo line, maybe a MK3 executive special an odd time, whatever happen to the MK3 executive coaches, I remember a Harp beer special Dundalk / Sligo about 20years ago, nice coaches with fancy armchairs and a nice bar.

The Executive coaches are rusting away in Inchicore with the others. I was on 7162 but never 7161.

Oscar Bravo

The only thing i will say pro 22k,is the re-fit of the Premier Class looks well.Set 33 was in Westport lately and i was shocked to see the 1st class re fitted with leather seats and a light on the table and new carpet. Otherwise them or the MK'4s are not a patch on the MK3's and it will be a long time until someting better's them.

end of the road

mark 3s saw service on the rosslare line a couple of times on the sunday night service to dublin standing in for the mark 2s, mostly it was a pushpull set in pull mode but once a normal mark 3 set, must be around 12 years ago since they last stood in for the mark 2s on the rosslare line?

Captain Chaos

Karsini wrote: »

The Executive coaches are rusting away in Inchicore with the others. I was on 7162 but never 7161.

I read that they were repainted and refitted in 2003 and added back into the regular City Gold pool. Don't know if they are still in Inchicore or not.

Captain Chaos

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I read that they were repainted and refitted in 2003 and added back into the regular City Gold pool. Don't know if they are still in Inchicore or not.

They were repainted into the standard livery alright. 7162 did look different to the other coaches on the inside though. 7161, if I recall correctly, had a bar inside.

Captain Chaos

Karsini wrote: »

They were repainted into the standard livery alright. 7162 did look different to the other coaches on the inside though. 7161, if I recall correctly, had a bar inside.

Yeah ,one had a small dance floor and a place for a DJ to set up. Can't picture any dancing on a moving train.:D

Losty Dublin

end of the road wrote: »

mark 3s saw service on the rosslare line a couple of times on the sunday night service to dublin standing in for the mark 2s, mostly it was a pushpull set in pull mode but once a normal mark 3 set, must be around 12 years ago since they last stood in for the mark 2s on the rosslare line?

I'd have thought that unlikely to have happened. Hauled Mark 3's weren't diagrammed out of Connolly aside from the push pull set while 201's weren't allowed beyond Arklow except in emergencies. There were a few 071's equipped to run push pull but it wasn't done that often. I'd like to find out more about what sounds like a strange stand in.

flyingsnail

They used to use hauled sets for the Wexford opera specials

Losty Dublin

flyingsnail wrote: »

They used to use hauled sets for the Wexford opera specials

I had forgotten about them, good spot

end of the road

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I'd have thought that unlikely to have happened. Hauled Mark 3's weren't diagrammed out of Connolly aside from the push pull set while 201's weren't allowed beyond Arklow except in emergencies. There were a few 071's equipped to run push pull but it wasn't done that often. I'd like to find out more about what sounds like a strange stand in.

not much to tell really. i'd imagine their was no pushpull sets or anything else available so the normal mark 3 set had to stand in, can't remember if it was a 201 that pulled it though, could any of the other locos pull ordinary mark 3 sets? it was a lovely trip anyway.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

could any of the other locos pull ordinary mark 3 sets? it was a lovely trip anyway.

Yes, any of the GMs could, but not the A or C class as they only had vacuum braking. A pair of 121s and a full Mark 3 set was often rostered on a Limerick-Ennis run in the last few years.

yachtsman

How many of the 22000s have been withdrawn at this stage (ie before the last of the order is cleared for service.) It must be a world record of sorts to be withdrawing part of the order before the full order is complete!

Captain Chaos

yachtsman wrote: »

How many of the 22000s have been withdrawn at this stage (ie before the last of the order is cleared for service.) It must be a world record of sorts to be withdrawing part of the order before the full order is complete!

None have been. Just a delay in commissioning of sets because of defects to be fixed and a lack of space to store sets while they are being tested. All are in service now. All IE are waiting on is the replacement of sets 9 and 10 which were damaged on delivery and had to be returned, they were beyond economic repair.

Actually, set 59 is the only one left to be commissioned. Other than that they have all worked in revenue service.

bk

Solair wrote: »

I though the tracks were being upgraded to the correct specification for 200km/h running during the current relaying projects?

This is an interesting question, can anyone answer it?

It seems IR have been upgrading the Cork to Dublin track, I assume they have been doing it to 200km/h standard?

Roughly how much would it cost IR to buy 200km/h capable power cars for the Mark 4's?

What other work or cost or obstacles would be involved in upgrading Cork to Dublin to 200km/s?

dowlingm

IE seem to be working on two separate phases - replacing 54kg track with 60kg track to absorb the track forces from a 100mph locomotive more easily is one (currently being done south of Portlaoise) and replacing speed restricted track is the other, most recently at the Lisduff switches - apparently the next project like this is in the Blarney area.

Presumably the UIC60 rail would be okay for a 125mph power car with lower unsprung weight but then you still have lots of 100mph DMUs to path around. Given that improving a 70mph SR to 100 gives a better result than the same length of 100 > 125 I think IE are doing the right thing in concentrating on maximising track speed which the majority of the fleet can reach.

Solair

They really should have purchased MK4 as a full kit, with power cars and ready to roll at 200km/h.

What they did seems a bit daft and more expensive in the long run.

L1011

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Yeah ,one had a small dance floor and a place for a DJ to set up. Can't picture any dancing on a moving train.:D

I can't see how you could have DJed on vinyl, or even early CDJs on a moving train!

dowlingm

Solair wrote: »

They really should have purchased MK4 as a full kit, with power cars and ready to roll at 200km/h.

What they did seems a bit daft and more expensive in the long run.

That would leave a LOT of 201s with nothing to do (being only good for Enterprise and Mark 3 (assuming the price of the powercars would have been a smaller order of 22Ks), and a bunch of 125km/h trains limited to a relative crawl (remember this was pre KRP, pre Portarlington being fixed etc) at way too many spots in the network.

Basically it would be an analogue to the WRC as it is now - 100mph 22Ks running at 40-50mph, hooting every 100 yards for an accommodation crossing.

Rud

Wild times in this video :rolleyes:.Was there actually money made from this service at all,involving the executive coaches?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TwSdVx2nOI