Where'd all the old trains go?

gawker

Excuse my ignorance, but when did all the older (orange!) trains go? I’ve been living abroad for a few years and am commuting by rail now I’m home. Every train bar the Cork service now seems to have the same rolling stock. Were the trains that would have been in use in 2008/2009 really all that old that they had to be retired?

The new trains are fine and Wifi is a great addition, but I miss the cosiness of some of the older trains. Also, the new trains have less space for standing so on commuter routes it's a right pain if you don't get a seat. DMUs are just not as exciting, but I guess save a lot of money?

A little crash course on what happened would be much appreciated.

Judgement Day

The MkIIIs were prematurely retired and are now to be found dumped stored at Waterford http://www.flickr.com/photos/rowan826/3514380549/in/set-72157617587113080, Dundalk and the North Wall.

gawker

Judgement Day wrote: »

The MkIIIs were prematurely retired and are now to be found dumped stored at Waterford http://www.flickr.com/photos/rowan826/3514380549/in/set-72157617587113080, Dundalk and the North Wall.

That's a pity. Why the premature retirement? It's not like Irish Rail / CIE ever had lots of money to throw around

I spent time living in Germany recently and they seemed happy enough with older trains being renovated and kept in service.

gobnaitolunacy

gawker wrote: »

That's a pity. Why the premature retirement? It's not like Irish Rail / CIE ever had lots of money to throw around

I spent time living in Germany recently and they seemed happy enough with older trains being renovated and kept in service.

Maintainance and periodic refurbs were never Irish Rail's strong point. The mkIII's are too far gone now to do anything with them.

dowlingm

gawker wrote: »

That's a pity. Why the premature retirement? It's not like Irish Rail / CIE ever had lots of money to throw around

I spent time living in Germany recently and they seemed happy enough with older trains being renovated and kept in service.

gawker

the 3s needed some work to meet modern requirements, starting with retention tanks for the toilets. It's all been discussed in other threads. If the tiger was still roaring there might have been scope to do it but the recession has yanked the rug out from under passenger demand, and unlike Germany/UK there is no facility in Ireland to do the works so it can't even be done as a stimulus project. Accordingly, the 3s will be scrapped - a tender has been published to have it done.

Julius Seizure

Speaking of the toilets is it true it was just dumped? I remember my Mum never letting me go to the toilet in a station but I thought it was a myth...

gawker

Dubhaltach wrote: »

Speaking of the toilets is it true it was just dumped? I remember my Mum never letting me go to the toilet in a station but I thought it was a myth...

I was just wondering the same thing. The flushing noise used to kinda scare me!

Solair

A lot of older continental trains have a hole in the bottom of the toilet and when you flush you can see the tracks whizzing past!

I suspect the main reason for the early retirement of the MK3 fleet was that they were very difficult to adapt to make them disability-access compatible.
That and they wanted to move away from locomotive haulage on most lines due to passenger loads being very variable.

Julius Seizure

gawker wrote: »

I was just wondering the same thing. The flushing noise used to kinda scare me!

It's not nearly as bad as ne ones on the 22's, thye're like ferry and plane ones... I think I saw someone here say they almost lost a shoe once

Solair

The new Cork Dublin fleet's toilets also do a lot of talking!

You get a verbal warning to ensure you lock the door

Otherwise, you risk having the entire wall of the toilet slide away while you're sitting on the loo.

gobnaitolunacy

Solair wrote: »

The new Cork Dublin fleet's toilets also do a lot of talking!

You get a verbal warning to ensure you lock the door

Otherwise, you risk having the entire wall of the toilet slide away while you're sitting on the loo.

In spite of the chatting, folks STILL won't take heed and lock the door, caught a few ppl with their *ahem* pants down.

Julius Seizure

Solair wrote: »

The new Cork Dublin fleet's toilets also do a lot of talking!

You get a verbal warning to ensure you lock the door

Otherwise, you risk having the entire wall of the toilet slide away while you're sitting on the loo.

It's like that on the 22's aswell They don't give you a lot of time. Much preferred the prompts on the deDietreich's. Ditto for the Smoking Alarm bug :mad:

CaptainSkidmark

Solair wrote: »

A lot of older continental trains have a hole in the bottom of the toilet and when you flush you can see the tracks whizzing past!

I suspect the main reason for the early retirement of the MK3 fleet was that they were very difficult to adapt to make them disability-access compatible.
That and they wanted to move away from locomotive haulage on most lines due to passenger loads being very variable.

LOL

I see that in holland on the double deckers:D

end of the road

gawker wrote: »

Why the premature retirement?

because IE think rolling stock are toys that they can throw away when their board of them or when things get a little difficult.

gawker wrote: »

It's not like Irish Rail / CIE ever had lots of money to throw around

no but what they were given they wasted to an extent.

end of the road

Solair wrote: »

I suspect the main reason for the early retirement of the MK3 fleet was that they were very difficult to adapt to make them disability-access compatible.

ah begarra begosh how did they manage? surely disabled people were able to use the trains using the mark 3 carriges? wouldn't say it was anything to do with disabled access.

Solair wrote: »

they wanted to move away from locomotive haulage on most lines due to passenger loads being very variable.

and now we have 3 car sets on some routes where they can't cope with the demand,
and some routes where on certain services a 6 car may be required but it can't operate due to platform lengths.

n97 mini

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

In spite of the chatting, folks STILL won't take heed and lock the door, caught a few ppl with their *ahem* pants down.

I don't know why you should have to lock the door after you close it. Who, aside maybe from George Michael, would want to be in an unlocked toilet on a train?

n97 mini

dowlingm wrote: »

unlike Germany/UK there is no facility in Ireland to do the works

Ironic considering about 80 or so of the Mark 3's were actually built in Inchicore.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

Ironic considering about 80 or so of the Mark 3's were actually built in Inchicore.

yeah, isn't it just. such facilities were broke up/demolished for whatever reason. ideally the trains we buy would be built and refurbished in this country but i suppose the fact they aren't is (progress)

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

Ironic considering about 80 or so of the Mark 3's were actually built in Inchicore.

The jigs used to build the Mark 3s were buried in Inchicore and covered in concrete. Nobody seems to know why, but I'd suspect that it was because BREL only licensed CIÉ to build a certain number of coaches.

end of the road

Karsini wrote: »

The jigs used to build the Mark 3s were buried in Inchicore and covered in concrete. Nobody seems to know why, but I'd suspect that it was because BREL only licensed CIÉ to build a certain number of coaches.

only in ireland would such a thing happen. BRL no longer exists so time to exume them. their should be a museeme dedicated to inchicore works and its history, ireland has such a fascinating transport history which people should be able to see however unless your in the know as to where various exibits and working examples are its not realy accessible.

Judgement Day

end of the road wrote: »

only in ireland would such a thing happen. BRL no longer exists so time to exume them. their should be a museeme dedicated to inchicore works and its history, ireland has such a fascinating transport history which people should be able to see however unless your in the know as to where various exibits and working examples are its not realy accessible.

Part, at least, of Inchicore Works should be turned into a National Railway Museum but this is Ireland so it won't happen. There have been plenty of other threads on this already and it's pointless discussing it further...but at least CIE/IE have a Railway Heritage Priest Officer. :rolleyes:

http://www.cie.ie/our_services/heritage.asp#collectors

CaptainFreedom

Judgement Day wrote: »

Part, at least, of Inchicore Works should be turned into a National Railway Museum but this is Ireland so it won't happen. There have been plenty of other threads on this already and it's pointless discussing it further...but at least CIE/IE have a Railway Heritage Priest Officer. :rolleyes:

http://www.cie.ie/our_services/heritage.asp#collectors

Another one of your friends then?

Solair

end of the road wrote: »

Karsini wrote: »

The jigs used to build the Mark 3s were buried in Inchicore and covered in concrete. Nobody seems to know why, but I'd suspect that it was because BREL only licensed CIÉ to build a certain number of coaches.

only in ireland would such a thing happen. BRL no longer exists so time to exume them. their should be a museeme dedicated to inchicore works and its history, ireland has such a fascinating transport history which people should be able to see however unless your in the know as to where various exibits and working examples are its not realy accessible.

BREL's technology patents do exist, albeit as part of a different company. It was bought Adtranz and merged into Bombardier.

You have to remember that in the days when CIE built MK3 coaches international trade and state contracts were very different.
Governments would demand that subsidiaries were setup and goods manufactured locally by the foreign suppliers.

The same thing happened in areas like telecoms where Alcatel actually made Telecom Éireann exchanges in Bandon and Ericsson made them in Athlone.

Joint-venture operations with state bodies in foreign markets were the done thing in those days if you wanted to get your product in. Infrastructure suppliers also relied on state export guarantees, and governments would actively lobby other governments to get their 'national champion' company in on state-run contracts.

All that stuff is TOTALLY gone nowadays.

There was no European single market (or, rather it was highly limited in the early 80s) and no globalisation to the extent we have it now.

These days all of that kind of work is consolidated into large companies. All of the smaller outfits including BREL and the crowd that built the DART are gone. De Deitrich no longer has a transit division either.

Europe pretty much has a handful of major transit equipment makers these days.

There's really no way CIE could have realistically retained manufacturing facilities. They'd no technology to export, no design teams or serious R&D etc. The MK3 operation was just an licensed assembly operation on behalf of BREL.

Their own local internal market is also tiny.

If Inchicore Works had developed some interesting technology and products in its own right in the 50s, 60s and 70s then it could have been a European player.

However, it wasn't easy for a small player to break-in to a market that until very recently was run by state-owned monopolies who only purchased from their 'national champion' manufactures. That coupled with the lack of any history of serious mechanical engineering and heavy machinery manufacturing in the Republic of Ireland would have made it a very unlikely prospect.

(I know, before anyone says it, there was some in Cork in terms of ship-building, but nothing of any huge scale other than Ford, but again that had no R&D)

dowlingm

SNCF/France still wants to behave as if there were no single market, given the messing about Eurotunnel being able to buy from Siemens which they finally had to give up on.

end of the road - while the less abled might have been able to "manage" before often that took the form of putting people on the guards van.

http://www.flac.ie/download/pdf/210509_hennessey_v_network_cateringiarnrod_eireann.pdf

That won't do any more, thus Chiltern spending a wodge of cash adjusting Mark 3 ends to make entrances and toilets adhere to the relevant standard (Persons with Reduced Mobility TSI). Generally speaking you wouldn't have to adjust all of the entrances and toilets but enough that you could reasonably accommodate all of the passengers who could be shown to travel on a given day. In Chiltern's case that appears to be two out of four standard class Mark 3s per rake.

Solair

That case certainly doesn't make for pleasant reading!

The MK3s were an early 1970s design, even if the Irish Rail fleet was built later. Their facilities on-board were pretty basic in terms of accessibility.

Even getting a buggy on board wasn't easy.

Incidentally, Translink also got rid of their Class 450 trains which are also basically Mark 3 coaches in a DMU configuration. They'd similar accessibility issues on-board.

They date from the mid to late 80s and are deemed to be life-expired.

Cookie_Monster

accessibility - the ultimate excuse to bin any old stock or building someone doesn't want. Never mind that 99% of people can access it just fine, we'll always aim to cater for that 1% at massively inflated cost to everyone else :rolleyes:

kc56

In the UK once the IEP (Intercity Express Programme) starts delivering new trains, it is planned to withdraw the HSTs and MK3s.

If the MkIII as so desirable and trains are in short supply in the UK, how is it that no UK operator expressed sufficient interest in IE's sets?

Cookie_Monster

kc56 wrote: »

In the UK once the IEP (Intercity Express Programme) starts delivering new trains, it is planned to withdraw the HSTs and MK3s.

If the MkIII as so desirable and trains are in short supply in the UK, how is it that no UK operator expressed sufficient interest in IE's sets?

because they're in shite order and need lots of work, not to mention re-gauging

Solair

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

because they're in shite order and need lots of work, not to mention re-gauging

Coz they're waiting for this magic HST2 ... which will come along sometime before the StarTrek transporter becomes the norm for public transport!

but, also because they're the wrong gauge, have the wrong electrics on board, have no power cars and are restricted to less than 125mph and are setup for locomotive hauling.

Captain Chaos

Solair wrote: »

That case certainly doesn't make for pleasant reading!

The MK3s were an early 1970s design, even if the Irish Rail fleet was built later. Their facilities on-board were pretty basic in terms of accessibility.

Even getting a buggy on board wasn't easy.

Incidentally, Translink also got rid of their Class 450 trains which are also basically Mark 3 coaches in a DMU configuration. They'd similar accessibility issues on-board.

They date from the mid to late 80s and are deemed to be life-expired.

The 450s are just Mk3 shells on Mk1 underframes with outdated power from retired 70 class DMUs.

The Mk3s in the UK have had great refurb mods based on the BREL Mk4s.

The Mk3s now running in the UK are better than our CAF Mk4s. They have automatic plug doors that are wider for wheelchairs and the corridors have been widened too. All the latest mod cons fitted and run every day at 125mph. The Mk3s are good till 2020-25.

IE ran to CAF to get push pull Mk4s for 125mph running when our existing Mk3s could do it if we had any decent motive power on hand and with better ride quality.

We have LHB DARTs built around the same time as our Mk3s and they will still be going to 2020 after the refurb they went through. They are based on a 1970s design like the Mk3s.

What IE didn't want to do anymore was to have locos needing shunt releases and run arounds. Yes they had the 5 Mk3 DVTs but they had limitations with their small under floor gennys limiting train lengths. If IE would have top and tailed the Mk3s like what is done in the UK with the extra 201s they could have solved that. Or the top and tail power car option they are looking into to get the Mk4 sets to 125mph after the track upgrades.

It's all water under the bridge at this stage but the point is the Mk3s that have been rotting away for the past 2-3 years now have only worked half their useful life. IE let them go to crap in the end like they do all their stock that is to be replaced so no one else can use it.

Captain Chaos

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

i not to mention
re-gauging

All they have to do is swap out the bogies on them. I'm sure there are a load of surplus Mk3 bogies in the UK. It's not like they are a custom build jobbie. Sure NIR sold some of their old Mk2Bs back to the UK where they were working charter trains for a few years.

IE bought a set of air braked Mk2s in the late '90s when they were stuck for rolling stock. They didn't last very long because of the heavy use they had in the UK and had alot of corrosion on the body work.

If off the shelf stock can be bought and sold like that then re gauging is not an issue at all.

Oscar Bravo

Ah the good old days.071 class+Mk3s to Dublin.the lovely smell in the MK3'S,full Irish breakfast on board,dodgey announcements,telegraph poles alongside the line,Jointed track,mabey even a loco failure along the way....and a lovely selection of Rolling Stock/Locos on arrival in Heuston.Cravens,MK2's,Mk2ab's,Dutch Vans etc etc.... all a distant memory,but good times.

end of the road

Oscar Bravo wrote: »

Ah the good old days.071 class+Mk3s to Dublin.the lovely smell in the MK3'S,full Irish breakfast on board,dodgey announcements,telegraph poles alongside the line,Jointed track,mabey even a loco failure along the way....and a lovely selection of Rolling Stock/Locos on arrival in Heuston.Cravens,MK2's,Mk2ab's,Dutch Vans etc etc.... all a distant memory,but good times.

here here, RIP to the good old days and times of proper trains on a proper railway.

Solair

All I remember about the Cork-Dublin service before the Mark 4 launch was that it was totally inconsistent and often really poor quality. It may not have been the rolling stock's fault, but it was pretty grim.

You couldn't guarantee it would be a Mark 3 train, it was sometimes decrepit Mark 2 or worse, a Cravens set, or worse still a commuter DMU!

The Mark 3 trains weren't all that comfortable. The air conditioning / heating often didn't work and resulted in trains being excessively warm or cold. The lighting was very dull. They always smelt like a GAA club bar due to all the decades of beer soakage into the carpets which were clearly never washed or replaced. The seats were quite uncomfortable if you were more than 4ft tall due to the shape of the neck rest part which caused you to end up with your neck crooked over all the time. The toilets were tiny and often very dirty.
There were no adequate baby change facilities and no disabled toilet access at all as far as I am aware.
There were no announcements on a lot of trains, or totally sporadic ones made when crews felt like it.

Also, the wonderful catering service that people go on about wasn't very wonderful at all. All I remember was the 'snack bar' never had anything you'd ask for and the dining car menu was clearly drawn up by a 1970s greasy spoon café. Deep fried everything and omelets.

The current MK4 catering service isn't great, but it's at least consistent and seems nice and clean and tidy.

Also, I have to say that the trolley service on the MK4s is excellent. It's well stocked, comes around frequently and is very friendly.

In the MK3 days the trolley service was basically tea / coffee and occasionally a CIE Cuisine Classic : chicken and stuffing sandwich. Often the trolley service just didn't show up at all.

Also, in the MK3 days over-crowding was common (at full price ticket). I remember on numerous occasions having to sit on the floor to get to Cork and still paying a huge fee for the privilege.

All in all, the service in 2012 is DRASTICALLY better than it was in say 2003.

Most stations are clean, tidy, well lit, look nice and have good announcements.
Trains are tidy, clean, modern and seem generally quite efficient.
Ticketing and frequencies seem a hell of a lot better too.

From the customers' point of view, the new trains are a major improvement.

Cookie_Monster

oh give me back the days of cravens with holes in the floor pulled by 141's that you can't even see the orange on they're so filthy over the horrid soulless crappy 22ks

22ks are like all modern cars and appliances IMO, designed to look good at the expense of everything else and only built to last 10 years rather than 30-50 like everything used to be. A few years and they'll be a total shambles

Solair

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

oh give me back the days of cravens with holes in the floor pulled by 141's that you can't even see the orange on they're so filthy over the horrid soulless crappy 22ks

22ks are like all modern cars and appliances IMO, designed to look good at the expense of everything else and only built to last 10 years rather than 30-50 like everything used to be. A few years and they'll be a total shambles

I doubt that, given they are built out of the same kind of materials as you find on a modern train / aircraft interior anywhere in the world and are specified to last!

Old doesn't always = better and New doesn't always = 'rubbish'.

end of the road

new trains are all well and good but if the tracks aren't good enough to take them at their full speed or near to it then theirs a problem, it wasn't the new trains stopped the overcrowding passenger numbers have dropped to. i would suggest that cookie monster has a point, all the new trains will go through the same IE maintenence procedures which will mean pannels not put back fully and rattling around and much more. IE need to up the standards to make sure these last as long as mechanically and structurely possible as they won't be getting money for new ones if they get board of these.
at solair are you serious? they put a commuter railcar on a dublin cork service? i've realy heard it all now.

Solair

Yup, I did Cork-Dublin on a 29000 back in the 'transition period' before the MK4s were rolled out

It happened more than once too!

I think they were short a Cravens set or something, but it was basically like a 3 hour journey on the DART only with more engine noise.

I though the tracks were being upgraded to the correct specification for 200km/h running during the current relaying projects?

I know the CAF Mark 4s suddenly run nice and normally smoothly, like a continental train, when they're no that new bit of track near Portlaoise.

I thought maintenance has been changed too ? That new Portlaoise Railcare facility seems to carry ROTEM and CAF branding.

The poor old BREL fleets seemed to get treated very roughly by IE.

goingnowhere

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The Mk3s in the UK have had great refurb mods based on the BREL Mk4s.

ONLY the GNER ones

The Mk3s now running in the UK are better than our CAF Mk4s. They have automatic plug doors that are wider for wheelchairs and the corridors have been widened too. All the latest mod cons fitted and run every day at 125mph. The Mk3s are good till 2020-25.

Its only 20 Mk3 coach overhauled at a huge expense by one company, and at 100 mph only

We have LHB DARTs built around the same time as our Mk3s and they will still be going to 2020 after the refurb they went through. They are based on a 1970s design like the Mk3s.

Not so LHB units were absolutely state of the art in 1983 with solid state traction systems, level correcting suspension, atp and ato provision, while the UK was still playing with camshaft controllers from the 1940's and two man operation. 500k per coach to overhaul. Mk3 is strictly speaking a 1960's design.

Losty Dublin

Solair wrote: »

Yup, I did Cork-Dublin on a 29000 back in the 'transition period' before the MK4s were rolled out

It happened more than once too!

I think they were short a Cravens set or something, but it was basically like a 3 hour journey on the DART only with more engine noise.
.

I'll better that. In the mid 90's, there were a few Dublin Cork train which were rostered for a 2 car 2600 set. They were used to transfer the Cobh sets between Inchicore and Cork for servicing and as a rule on mid morning trains only. However, they saw service at times standing in for failures from Cork and the odd relief on unexpectly busy occasions. More recently, there was a Sunday only Dublin-Galway and Galway-Dublin worked by a 4 car set 2800 set. It relieved the heavy weekend traffic on the line out of Galway and while uncomfortable, it offered extra capacity on the line. The 80 Class railcars saw relief and standby work on the Belfast services until the C3K sets were in traffic; I don't know if a Castle got down this far.

Oscar Bravo

Quote "22ks are like all modern cars and appliances IMO, designed to look good at the expense of everything else and only built to last 10 years rather than 30-50 like everything used to be. A few years and they'll be a total shambles"- FACT!!

Sligo Quay

MK3s sadly never saw regular service on the Sligo line, maybe a MK3 executive special an odd time, whatever happen to the MK3 executive coaches, I remember a Harp beer special Dundalk / Sligo about 20years ago, nice coaches with fancy armchairs and a nice bar.

Sligo Quay

Sligo Quay wrote: »

MK3s sadly never saw regular service on the Sligo line, maybe a MK3 executive special an odd time, whatever happen to the MK3 executive coaches, I remember a Harp beer special Dundalk / Sligo about 20years ago, nice coaches with fancy armchairs and a nice bar.

The Executive coaches are rusting away in Inchicore with the others. I was on 7162 but never 7161.

Oscar Bravo

The only thing i will say pro 22k,is the re-fit of the Premier Class looks well.Set 33 was in Westport lately and i was shocked to see the 1st class re fitted with leather seats and a light on the table and new carpet. Otherwise them or the MK'4s are not a patch on the MK3's and it will be a long time until someting better's them.

end of the road

mark 3s saw service on the rosslare line a couple of times on the sunday night service to dublin standing in for the mark 2s, mostly it was a pushpull set in pull mode but once a normal mark 3 set, must be around 12 years ago since they last stood in for the mark 2s on the rosslare line?

Captain Chaos

Karsini wrote: »

The Executive coaches are rusting away in Inchicore with the others. I was on 7162 but never 7161.

I read that they were repainted and refitted in 2003 and added back into the regular City Gold pool. Don't know if they are still in Inchicore or not.

Captain Chaos

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I read that they were repainted and refitted in 2003 and added back into the regular City Gold pool. Don't know if they are still in Inchicore or not.

They were repainted into the standard livery alright. 7162 did look different to the other coaches on the inside though. 7161, if I recall correctly, had a bar inside.

Captain Chaos

Karsini wrote: »

They were repainted into the standard livery alright. 7162 did look different to the other coaches on the inside though. 7161, if I recall correctly, had a bar inside.

Yeah ,one had a small dance floor and a place for a DJ to set up. Can't picture any dancing on a moving train.:D

Losty Dublin

end of the road wrote: »

mark 3s saw service on the rosslare line a couple of times on the sunday night service to dublin standing in for the mark 2s, mostly it was a pushpull set in pull mode but once a normal mark 3 set, must be around 12 years ago since they last stood in for the mark 2s on the rosslare line?

I'd have thought that unlikely to have happened. Hauled Mark 3's weren't diagrammed out of Connolly aside from the push pull set while 201's weren't allowed beyond Arklow except in emergencies. There were a few 071's equipped to run push pull but it wasn't done that often. I'd like to find out more about what sounds like a strange stand in.

flyingsnail

They used to use hauled sets for the Wexford opera specials

Losty Dublin

flyingsnail wrote: »

They used to use hauled sets for the Wexford opera specials

I had forgotten about them, good spot