Ammunition - Total Amounts Allowed

GADWALL

Hi If anyone has a view or can point me in the right direction , id be glad to hear from you .
I am shooting for over 40 years . I can remember when you could buy 100 Shotgun cartridges for a £10 , tener and get some change to , If you had a tener .
You had to make do with 100 rounds in your cupboard back then .
Today . Oh and I have searched the Firarms acts high and low all day today , but all we have to go on is" The Garda Commisioners Guidelines" and street wisdom .
I have never really liked guidelines .As an ex soldier I suppose , RULES , REGULATIONS AND LAW, well life is Simpler , less complicated somehow , to much RIGGLE ROOM , with Guidelines .
My dilema is thus .
3 Shotgun certs .
Cert A, has 750 rounds on it . B 1000 and C 200 .

How did I get there one may ask , but it gets better .
The percieved Wisdom and local Garda at the Hatch ! confirms that 1000 , is the Total ammount I Can have , hold or purchase . great that will work for me But .
Gun A and Gun C are also licensed by my son who lives at another address and nothed on his forms as Stored with me . Gun C , is our new Clay gun . I have to pick him up to go Clay shooting . 2 shooters , well 200 rounds isnt enough ammo for us there . I am breaking the law by carrying more .
Now this is Facts , I just got the letter today . I applied for an incrase on the newest Licence C , 200 rounds ( issued last month ) . I pointed out the Cay factor and as I could in fact only have A maximum of 1000 rounds it was just impeading ( and therefore academic , but not if stopped by An Garda ) my use of Gun C .
Right well what did they Do ?. incresed 200 to 500 and told me Licence B at 1000 was an Error and would be reduced to 500 at the next renewal . So now by trying to comply with Law and not carry in excess of 200 with that Gun I am Now impeaded by lowering my overall total .
Bear with me Please , my son is STUDENT , I hold all the ammo within the 1000 allowed . he has wait for it 500 on Gun A AND YES YOU GUESSED IT 1000 ON GUN C , but I buy it all and the total is lss that the 1000 anyway .
I am told by my Super that the 500 is within The Gada Comms Guidelines , Quite True but at the Lower end of same .
My questions are thus ,
am I RIGHT IN SAYING that the total is the maximun on any one licence , crrently for me 1000 , to be 750 ?.
what then happens when I change Gun B , to a 20 Guage and say have 500 on that ? Surely its not all in the same maximum 1000 or 750 as a different calibre and if so , what then happens if one has 100 rounds on a 22 or an air rifle with 250 pellets in a tin are they all totaled to 1000 , or 750 ?.
If this info is listed in the Firearms acts , please point me in that direction , Or are we , AS I FEAR , back to guidelines already .
In my humble opinion question 4.2 of the ammended FAC1 MARCH 2012 form , needs to be revisited again and clearly spelt out there , Ammounts of ammuntion allowed . I applied for 1000 on each of the 3 applications I am founder memeber of our club , I shoot , Clays , Snipe , Duck , Pigeons , PHEASANT AND WOODCOCK . THATS 7.5 . 8s , 4s, 5s, 6s and 7s of various load computations , overland and costal . for 2 people at a max of 750 rounds , Thats some Juggling act .If your a fan of Guidelines , Next time your in town Go into a Chemist and ask for a Box of Nurofen + , If you didnt have a headache before you got the Guideline Spiel , you will have by the time Shes finished with you .They dont work ! ( the N+ work just fine ).sorry for going on lads , Its just so annoying the Bull IN THIS COUNTRY HAS TO STOP SOMEWHERE . cheers , Quack Quack . Gadwall

kildare.17hmr

My head nearly broke reading that!! Haha but to answer your question the guard is wrong, you can have your 1000 for gun A + 750 for gun B + 200 for gun C all at once so you can have a total of 1950 rounds if 12g ammo at any ine time

Tikkat3

I feel for you Gadwell and as confused as I am from reading the post, not your info but the logic the guard was saying, I think I would read it like Kildare.17hmr and would have thought the limits were per license and the total was combined?

Had a chat with my F.O. when applying for a PCP rifle license recently and told him the gun came with two 1000 tins of pellets so I put that down as my request. He said that 1000 was the maximum I could have and I asked how this affects the seller who will be in a situation where he has to 'dispose' of 1000+ more pellets ( which are about as dangerous on their own as an ice cube on a sunny day) He then said put down 2,000 on the application and we will see what comes back from the super........................so I am living in suspense

Cass

My head nearly broke reading that!! Haha but to answer your question the guard is wrong, you can have your 1000 for gun A + 750 for gun B + 200 for gun C all at once so you can have a total of 1950 rounds if 12g ammo at any ine time

Spot on.

Total amount stored is what the combined licenses allow you to have. However when out if a Garda was so inclined he could check your license against the gun in your hand.

So if gun A was a thousand (1,000), but you have gun B (only 500 on that license) out with you, and 1,000 cartridges on your person then you are in breech of your license conditions.

The same for your son. If you have a total of 1950, and he has a total of 1,500 the as you both store your firearm at the one location, and the licenses were granted on this premise you may store a total of 3,450 cartridges.

As to the amount itself. The commissioner's guidelines are just that. Guidelines. More can be granted if there is good reason for needing that amount. I know plenty of clay shooters with 2,000+ allowance on their licenses.

garv123

Ezridax wrote: »

Spot on.



So if gun A was a thousand (1,000), but you have gun B (only 500 on that license) out with you, and 1,000 cartridges on your person then you are in breech of your license conditions.

Bring gun A as wel and leave it in the case beside you

Cass

Heh, heh. That would be one way.

In all fairness i've heard of being prepared, but irrespective of the gun you are but with i doubt anyone would carry the limit of their license on them. I mean whether gun A, B, or C would the OP carry more than 200, 500 or 1,000.

It really does deal with the storage at home more so than what you carry out with ya.

Either way the OP will be fine. In your FCR (renewal FCA1) the amount is already filled in. It is done via the amount you currently have so just sign it, and send it back.

GADWALL

thanks for reading guys , I have a spare Box of N+ , here if you need em .I got the Doc to put em on prescription for me . A pity he doesnt do 12 G .

I appreciate the answer re its a Cumulative Total and not the single Max on any one Licence . But I can find no refference to that point in Law .
I want to stay legal and not store ammo in my sons house , which would be 1500 on the info received tonight . way in excess of what I need . all the Super has done is messed up my plans , made One store of AMMO into TWO AND MADE A Mockery of the Law and common sense , IMHO .
I feel a letter to the NARGC coming on and a trip to the "Hatch" again .

How many rounds are to many , given my acivity list , we shoot clays once or thrice a month ,

cheers ,

Tikkat3

GADWALL wrote: »

thanks for reading guys , I have a spare Box of N+ , here if you need em .I got the Doc to put em on prescription for me . A pity he doesnt do 12 G .

I feel a letter to the NARGC coming on and a trip to the "Hatch" again .

be careful you dont take solpadeine as that has codeine and can be sold OTC but only with a stern caution!

As for the NARGC, at a meeting with them recently and the number of cases outstanding and going in the favor of the sporting shooter, is nothing short of staggering so you are well positioned.

clivej

Here is what is written in the Guidelines


The type or category of shooting being conducted by the applicant will be a key consideration when an issuing person is determining the amounts of ammunition to be specified in the firearm certificate. The following ratio of ammunition to purpose could be considered average:

1. Farmer (one shotgun for vermin/pest control) – 100 rounds.
2. Deer Gun – 200 to 260 rounds.
3. Shotgun for clay pigeon, pheasant/pigeon/woodcock – 500 to 750 rounds.
4. Target Shooter (member of authorised club) – 750 to 1,000 rounds.

But I have more than those on my licences 'cos I asked for more on the application FCA1 when apllying for each licence

garv123

clivej wrote: »

Here is what is written in the Guidelines


The type or category of shooting being conducted by the applicant will be a key consideration when an issuing person is determining the amounts of ammunition to be specified in the firearm certificate. The following ratio of ammunition to purpose could be considered average:

1. Farmer (one shotgun for vermin/pest control) – 100 rounds.
2. Deer Gun – 200 to 260 rounds.
3. Shotgun for clay pigeon, pheasant/pigeon/woodcock – 500 to 750 rounds.
4. Target Shooter (member of authorised club) – 750 to 1,000 rounds.

But I have more than those on my licences 'cos I asked for more on the application FCA1 when apllying for each licence

But in reality in a lot of stations its
100
100
100
100

BattleCorp

garv123 wrote: »

But in reality in a lot of stations its
100
100
100
100

100 rounds wouldn't even allow you to take part in the 1500 smallbore rifle competitions if you were a target shooter, let alone take part in a full days events.

A lot of people here have said that you should ask for more rounds on the FAC1 form. I personally did a bit more than this. I wrote a letter to go along with my firearm application, spelling out why I needed larger quantities. I put together a detailed list of reasons why I needed in excess of the guideline quantities, such as cheaper to buy in bulk, batch consistency, etc, etc. I didn't just ask for more "cos I wanted them".

In fairness, the Gardai were excellent and gave me the quantities that I requested.

GADWALL

I asked for 1000 , on all 3 licences . granted one one to be reduced to 500 . Cut in HALF .

I live in cork . 28g Olympic trap box 25 €6.50 , Murrays and kinsale road .
Up country . €5.50 or 1000 at . €4.78 a box .
Alphamax same shops , 36g €14.50 and €14.75 . 1000 up country at 400 + €10 a box . A massive saving .

The Commissioners guidelines also state that due reference should be made to how Cartridges are sold in boxes and cartons . Again I feel that the guideline is to Subjective to be an effective and Fair tool in the admistartion of the law In any country .
there should be a set ammount and after that the Super can adjuicate as needs be . say up to a basic of 1000 and let guys buy up to that ammount , I they wish .
With so many Different cartridges types available today , It is crazy to expect anyone to be retricted by law to 100 rounds .
I do know that the Super in my area and in 2 other areas are starting to cut back in this regard .
If my 1000 , was such an affront to the Law of the LAND , why not ammend my licence forthwith instead of leaving it until next August a full 12 months away . I had to get my 200 allowence increased to shoot clays . i would take 300 or 400 with me and Junior to shoot clays . I would be breaking the law .

The Consulative Bodies , re Firearms Licensing need to Remove as Much ambiguity as possible form the process . its the same with Silencers , depends where you live and the MOOD at the time you apply .
I will certainly be lobbying for this to take place ,

thanks for the input ,

If you check the price of Non toxic Bismouth shot for duck in the UK at £50 to £60 pounds sterling a box , the economics of Multi Buy will soon be coming here with the overdue introduction of Non Toxic shot . THE ability or otherwise to purchase in Bulk will soon become apparent .

garv123

BattleCorp wrote: »

100 rounds wouldn't even allow you to take part in the 1500 smallbore rifle competitions if you were a target shooter, let alone take part in a full days events.

A lot of people here have said that you should ask for more rounds on the FAC1 form. I personally did a bit more than this. I wrote a letter to go along with my firearm application, spelling out why I needed larger quantities. I put together a detailed list of reasons why I needed in excess of the guideline quantities, such as cheaper to buy in bulk, batch consistency, etc, etc. I didn't just ask for more "cos I wanted them".

In fairness, the Gardai were excellent and gave me the quantities that I requested.

I wrote a separate letter myself and I was only looking for 250 on each so I could buy a slab and outlined the reasons like pigeon shooting over crops and the likes and still only got 100. its a blanket 100 for everyone in the station here ( and a lot of places I hear) The lads who are members of target ranges probably do get more but not a hope for anything else.

pedroeibar1

Ezri is correct. Every gun is licensed individually and its approved quantity of ammunition is listed on each license, so there is no doubt that it is the cumulative total.

Probably best to have the same amount on each, or have more for the 12's if you shoot clays and say 500 for the 20. I have 500 for each of my 12 bores (2, so I can buy a slab if needed), 500 for my rifle and 500 for my 20 bore. That is more than I need.

There is nothing to prevent you buying the cumulative amount of ammunition on your licenses and storing it appropriately. Should some zealous young garda search your premises and decide to prosecute for (in his opinion) storing too much ammo, he would be thrown out of court as the law is very clear and on your side.

Witcher

I've a .22 for benchrest...enclosed a letter asking the super for 1500 rounds..got 500.

12 gauge for clays...asked for 500 and got the 500.

I'm not too bothered with my limits really, the range has a dealer attached so I'm never pushed for ammo and just buy it as I shoot it really, only have a few rounds for both at home.

Shoot with another guy from my district and he has 500 on each of his licences(rifle, pistol, shotgun)..he called up to increase his limit on the shotgun and the super himself called back saying they always give 500 as the max even with an enclosed letter outlining the reasons. You have to apply later for an increase. Guy got his increase no bother anyway.

Tommy87

Let's not forget this man needs "safe accommodation" for this ammo! That's a big safe for 1950 rounds of 12g shells!

Tikkat3

Tommy87 wrote: »

Let's not forget this man needs "safe accommodation" for this ammo! That's a big safe for 1950 rounds of 12g shells!

Lol I should be fine with the pellets so and just provide a pocket sized locker

IRLConor

One person I know recently got a limit of 100 for an air rifle. The pellets come in tins of 500! :rolleyes:

I applied for 5,000 for my .22. I got 500. I applied for an increase to 5,000. I got 1,000. I've shot 280 in training in the last 3 days!

I feel a bit miffed TBH. I feel like I'm being punished for obeying the law. I've met plenty of people who've said something like "Ah, sure the limit is only the limit of what you have on you, you can have as much as you like at home" or "Who's going to check?" so I suspect there are plenty out there who simply ignore the rules. I enjoy shooting, I want to keep my licence, but the price is having to grit my teeth and put up with the fact that others are getting what I want with a lot less hassle.

Tikkat3

IRLConor wrote: »

One person I know recently got a limit of 100 for an air rifle. The pellets come in tins of 500! :rolleyes:

I applied for 5,000 for my .22. I got 500. I applied for an increase to 5,000. I got 1,000. I've shot 280 in training in the last 3 days!

I feel a bit miffed TBH. I feel like I'm being punished for obeying the law. I've met plenty of people who've said something like "Ah, sure the limit is only the limit of what you have on you, you can have as much as you like at home" or "Who's going to check?" so I suspect there are plenty out there who simply ignore the rules. I enjoy shooting, I want to keep my licence, but the price is having to grit my teeth and put up with the fact that others are getting what I want with a lot less hassle.

That is exactly how I felt.

I told the FO that the sale came with 2x 1000k and probably more, it didnt mean i would ever carry that amount but i would have them in the safe.

GADWALL

I would respectfully point out That , Safe accomodation , Does not mean accomodation in a safe .

SI 307 -2009 , Secure accomodation of Firearms Legislation , does not in anyway Mention ammunition . Of course one must Excercise Due Dilligence in this repect and act accordingly . the 1950 rounds refers to Moi and if you read my previous messages you will see that my concern was that I may purchase and hold 1000 rounds for 2 ! shooters. not unresonable I would sujest .

The one lesson I can take for this thread is , That , As I expected , The Garda Commissioners Guidelines have been , widely Interpreted and it seems Miss Interpreted also .
yet again it seems , that the laws of the land are for the law biding Citizen . those who will ignore such things will always do so . If I didnt care about the ammo ammounts I wouldnt have Written to the Super . I tried to do the right thing , within the law and will stay within the Law . Guidelines are not law .
QUACK quack ,

the reply is not , Bang Bang !!! so please dont shoot the messenger

German pointer

I would think that if you have 1000, 750, and 200 over 3 licences for a total of 1950 12ga rounds then you could carry that ammount weather you have 1, 2, 3, or no guns with you. Your licence is to use posess and carry and if you want to carry them over a hill on your back or home from the gun shop there is nothing nobody can do so long as you dont have 1951 of the yokes

Grizzly 45

garv123 wrote: »

Bring gun A as wel and leave it in the case beside you

Just bring the liscense you are coverd.;)

Grizzly 45

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

There is nothing to prevent you buying the cumulative amount of ammunition on your licenses and storing it appropriately. Should some zealous young garda search your premises and decide to prosecute for (in his opinion) storing too much ammo, he would be thrown out of court as the law is very clear and on your side.

For which he would need a search warrent in the first place.Inspection of your gunsafe doesnt entitle him to have a gawk in the bedroom closet and your sock drawer.
So unless you have been extremely naughty it would be unlikely to happen.
HOWEVER being that we are law abiding folks..We wouldnt do such things..Right?;)

Being smarter bears,there is nothing to stop you going to your local gundealer ,arranging to buy ,if you can afford it,a forklift pallet load of your fav shotgun shells and storing them at the dealers.To be dispensed as you need them to the max of your liscense.Be that daily,weekly or monthly as the case maybe.

From my own experiance,when I wanted an ammo increase on mine,I stated the good reasons,and then put down that this was not to say that at any given time there would be a culmative total of over 6000 rounds at my house!!!As [1] it would be too much of a fire and security risk and [2] that if I was at an opportunity to buy a deal in bulk ammo of a specific type that I could. [3] couldnt afford it

IOW what you have to say is you would like the max amount of rounds,but that doesnt mean that you are going to sitting on a heap of shells all the time at home.That it is only for occasions like you going to a competition that you are weighed down with ammo in the thousands,and that if you were stopped you are coverd for what seems like an excessive amount.
Worked for both the Super and me.:)

Sparks

German pointer wrote: »

I would think that if you have 1000, 750, and 200 over 3 licences for a total of 1950 12ga rounds then you could carry that ammount weather you have 1, 2, 3, or no guns with you.

Technically correct.

Of course, technically, you'd have to be able to prove that you didn't use any of the ammunition on gun A's licence in gun B or C, so honestly, I wouldn't push too hard on the technical points like that

Your licence is to use posess and carry and if you want to carry them over a hill on your back or home from the gun shop there is nothing nobody can do so long as you dont have 1951 of the yokes

Er, wrong.
Seriously, don't go thinking that because you have a licence, no garda can say boo to you; people have gotten into serious trouble because they thought that. As in, arrested, lost their licences, not getting them back, sort of trouble.

Just keep some common sense about you - the Gardai don't want the trouble and hassle any more than you do.

And I'm saying that after having been issued with a licence for an air rifle and 100 pellets a week before going to a training camp in Finland. (I pointed out to the FO in the station the humour involved in being licenced for 100 inert lead pellets for an air rifle, he said it was a typo in the form, sorted it out there and then and because time was so short, amended and signed the licence grant letter there and then. The Gardai aren't perfect, but most of them aren't unpleasant about it if you're not unpleasant about it. Not all, but most )

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

For which he would need a search warrent in the first place.

Somehow I wouldn't go betting my sport on that point. You probably could stop him entering (the inspection of the gunsafe is meant to be in relation to the application for a licence, I don't know of any explicit provision for random warrentless searches of your home by anyone bar the firearms range inspector), but it'd be a phyrric victory; the super could immediately revoke your licence on the grounds that he couldn't verify that you were complying with the terms of that licence because you refused his agent entry (and young garda or not, you refuse one garda entry and you're taking on the AGS as a whole - the super wouldn't think highly of the young officer, but he'd think far less highly of you).

Being smarter bears,there is nothing to stop you going to your local gundealer ,arranging to buy ,if you can afford it,a forklift pallet load of your fav shotgun shells and storing them at the dealers.To be dispensed as you need them to the max of your liscense.Be that daily,weekly or monthly as the case maybe.

Exactly. That's how I do it. Completely legal, good business for the dealer, the AGS are happy about it. If you're shooting on a range with its own dealer (and most ranges have a dealer involved), it works quite well.

Can't wait for renewal time this year though, I'll be putting in for a slightly higher limit on the air rifle licence (50,000 isn't a high number, is it? )

GADWALL

Great Insight lads , thanks .

We all know that if you Smile and say the right things you will get your head patted , more often than not . Not always in a Garda station though.

Update .

I got my Increased licence from the Gaurds today . 200 to 500 , thank you Super .

I rang , within the past half hour 2 , Gun dealers re ammo allowences that I might be allowed to purchase.

1st guy , who I know, said I was entitled to Purchase THE STATED AMMOUNT ON EACH OF MY 3 LICENCES , Totaled at any one time .

The 2nd guy , who I do not know , said he would sell me as much ammunition as the money I had with me when I walked through his door .He even mentioned if I had 5 or 7 thousand Euro , no problem .
My reply was thank you , goodbye .

I also asked both about the standard ammo count out there . it seems that lots and los of guys are only on 100 rounds and not by choice .


I checked my Grant letters for all 3 of my Licences .
All 3 were issued by 3 different Supers , with 3 differnt totals , the last (current) guy giving me the least ammount . He is only recently appointed to this station .
I do not believe my 1000 licence was "issued in error " , it was not he who issued it and the fact I applied for 1000 and was granted 1000 , Where might the error have crept in ?.
Anyway do I write and challenge that , ask where the error arose , or , count my belssings as I am doing , given some of the stories recounted here .

Quack QAUACK , 23 DAYS TO GO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sparks

GADWALL wrote: »

The 2nd guy , who I do not know , said he would sell me as much ammunition as the money I had with me when I walked through his door .He even mentioned if I had 5 or 7 thousand Euro , no problem .
My reply was thank you , goodbye .

Damn good reply.

Some garda stops you on the way home, searches your car (gardai can search you and your vehicle without a warrent under the firearms act since 2009), and you'd be in a world of hurt. The dealer may get in trouble too, or not; but it would make no difference to your case because you got caught in possession of unlicenced ammunition and nothing that happens to the dealer will matter in that case - you were meant to know the law yourself.

And the Gardai *have* done people over that kind of thing, it's not some theoretical what-if.

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=Sparks;80127266]Somehow I wouldn't go betting my sport on that point. You probably could stop him entering (the inspection of the gunsafe is meant to be in relation to the application for a licence, I don't know of any explicit provision for random warrentless searches of your home by anyone bar the firearms range inspector), but it'd be a phyrric victory; the super could immediately revoke your licence on the grounds that he couldn't verify that you were complying with the terms of that licence because you refused his agent entry (and young garda or not, you refuse one garda entry and you're taking on the AGS as a whole - the super wouldn't think highly of the young officer, but he'd think far less highly of you).

Not quite,of course they are entitled to drop in and inspect that your firearms serial nrs and possibly ammo storage .
And no one has a prob with such,as they usually have the courtsey to phone ahead and arrange an appointment.

But thats where it ends...You are not refusing entry,you can have the guns on the table along with tea and cake for your visiting Garda,if you so wish even let them have a look at the safe again,just in case it has fallen off the wall for some reason:eek:....But thats not an entitlement or permission for the AGS to go rooting around your house on the suspicion of having Xtra ammo or breaching the liscense terms there and then.

That still requires a search warrent,and they have to have good reason or suspicion to aquire that.Fortunately ,we still arent to the US "No knock warrent" state of affairs ....Yet!:(


That was my point...Some Garda just pitching up on your door saying "I am searching your house as I think you have 50 shells more than you should." Would get very short shrift fromthe owner, and his Seargent and Super as well. Not to mind the Garda Ombudsman..There is a thing called exceeding your authorithy too.

As for the RI powers of warrentless entry...That I think is going to have to be a court case on some poor SOB to prove or not .

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

That still requires a search warrent,and they have to have good reason or suspicion to aquire that.Fortunately ,we still arent to the US "No knock warrent" state of affairs ....Yet!:(

No, but our search warrants don't hsve to get signed by an independent third party (yet)...

That was my point...Some Garda just pitching up on your door saying "I am searching your house as I think you have 50 shells more than you should." Would get very short shrift fromthe owner, and his Seargent and Super as well. Not to mind the Garda Ombudsman..There is a thing called exceeding your authorithy too.

True... but it's not going to be that cut-and-dried...

As for the RI powers of warrentless entry...That I think is going to have to be a court case on some poor SOB to prove or not .

Why? It's in statute law Grizz, Firearms Act Section 4B(4):

(4) An inspector who suspects, with reasonable cause, that any place is being used for rifle or pistol target shooting may enter and inspect it.

where place is defined in Section 1 as:

“ place ” includes a dwelling;

(Though that's reined in from the original proposed definition, it's not all that restrictive and gives the RI the necessary authority to search your home if he feels it necessary...

...something that's about as likely as being hit twice by lightning given the current incumbent )

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

No, but our search warrants don't hsve to get signed by an independent third party (yet)...

Thought they could be ,by a peace comissioner or justice of the peace??

True... but it's not going to be that cut-and-dried...

Is it ever??

Why? It's in statute law Grizz, Firearms Act Section 4B(4):
where place is defined in Section 1 as:(Though that's reined in from the original proposed definition, it's not all that restrictive and gives the RI the necessary authority to search your home if he feels it necessary...

The fact he is looking for a range, or signs of one wherever you might have cunningly hidden it in your urban semi D,airplane,hovercraft or railway carrige:p,so this is then revelant..
Does he have legal authorithy or right to look in your sock drawer or nightstand,or closet for the range?? As excess ammo, illegal firearms,meth labs,etc would fall outside his remit??Thats the whole concept of a search warrent,it must specify time,date,premises to be searched and for what
exactly.
IOW ,He cant or shouldnt be used as a legal battering ram for AGS to gain access without just cause or suspicion or more importantly a warrent,just because you are a gunowner and "you might have" excess ammo or a range.Because if that was the case we have done away with a small constitutional matter of privacy in our dewllings.

...something that's about as likely as being hit twice by lightning given the current incumbent )

Indeed no worries there;)...But who knows what sort of a Herr Flick might appear in the pipeline at a later date in the future???:eek:

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Thought they could be ,by a peace comissioner or justice of the peace?

Not sure if they can be, but they're usually signed by a garda superintendent.

Is it ever?

Not that I know of

The fact he is looking for a range, or signs of one wherever you might have cunningly hidden it in your urban semi D,airplane,hovercraft or railway carrige:p,so this is then revelant..

Ah, but he's not looking for a range; he's looking for evidence of target shooting.
A range might be evidence of that; so might spent casings in your sock drawer. And the law is blissfully generous in the breadth of the powers of search he's granted by that section.

Thats the whole concept of a search warrent,it must specify time,date,premises to be searched and for what
exactly.

I think that's more an American concept really Grizz.

IOW ,He cant or shouldnt be used as a legal battering ram for AGS to gain access without just cause or suspicion or more importantly a warrent,just because you are a gunowner and "you might have" excess ammo or a range.Because if that was the case we have done away with a small constitutional matter of privacy in our dewllings.

Preaching to the choir there Grizz. But that's the law they passed.




Indeed no worries there;)...But who knows what sort of a Herr Flick might appear in the pipeline at a later date in the future???:eek:[/QUOTE]

German pointer

Sparks wrote: »

Technically correct.

Of course, technically, you'd have to be able to prove that you didn't use any of the ammunition on gun A's licence in gun B or C, so honestly, I wouldn't push too hard on the technical points like that

I am not talking about using them in different guns I am just talking about use posess and carry as your licence states.


Er, wrong.
Seriously, don't go thinking that because you have a licence, no garda can say boo to you; people have gotten into serious trouble because they thought that. As in, arrested, lost their licences, not getting them back, sort of trouble.

Sorry to be harping on about this but are you telling me that people have been arrested for having the legal amount of ammo in their poession and lost their licences because of it?

Vegeta

German pointer wrote: »

Sorry to be harping on about this but are you telling me that people have been arrested for having the legal amount of ammo in their poession and lost their licences because of it?

From my reading of Sparks post I don't think that is what he was saying. I think he was making the point that if you are stopped out shooting (all legal and above board) by a Gardai and become argumentative that things can go badly.

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=Sparks;80138739]Not sure if they can be, but they're usually signed by a garda superintendent.

Checked it,they can indeed be signed by a peace comissioner or judge.
,if no Super is availabe or no district justice,you can use a peace comissioner.
TBH I think it is being changed anyway,because of the recent HC judge stating that it is repugnent to the constitution that a garda super can sign warrents in his own juristiction??

Ah, but he's not looking for a range; he's looking for evidence of target shooting.
A range might be evidence of that; so might spent casings in your sock drawer. And the law is blissfully generous in the breadth of the powers of search he's granted by that section.

Teneous evidence at best in that case.:p

I think that's more an American concept really Grizz.

Standard format for any warrent in the Western worlds jurisprudence.
The wording might be different or the layout or the terminology.Contents tho are very much the same.

Sparks

German pointer wrote: »

Sorry to be harping on about this but are you telling me that people have been arrested for having the legal amount of ammo in their poession and lost their licences because of it?

No, for having more than the amount on their licences and thinking that the Gardai couldn't come and look.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

TBH I think it is being changed anyway,because of the recent HC judge stating that it is repugnent to the constitution that a garda super can sign warrents in his own juristiction?

From what I understand of it, it's being changed so that the superintendent investigating a case can't sign warrants for that case; but I don't think that change has been made yet, and it's questionable if that change would even apply in this case.

Teneous evidence at best in that case.:p

Given that there's no legal definition of "target shooting", it'd be hard to tell what'd be legally thought of as acceptable evidence of it

Standard format for any warrent in the Western worlds jurisprudence.

No such animal Grizz, not unless by "Western" you meant "American". Most countries have a search warrant in one form or another, but there's enormous variations in what's permitted, who issues them, what exceptions and exemptions there are to needing them, what limits apply to those executing them and so on.
And we seem to be quite a ways over to the side of giving powers to the police rather than the side of limiting the powers of the police.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

From what I understand of it, it's being changed so that the superintendent investigating a case can't sign warrants for that case; but I don't think that change has been made yet, and it's questionable if that change would even apply in this case.

It has been changed,there were a whole bunch of cases dumped out[PM] because of it around April/May this year some were very guilty,some not so.

Given that there's no legal definition of "target shooting", it'd be hard to tell what'd be legally thought of as acceptable evidence of it

Fact,and that going to be one for a court to decide.:(

GADWALL

Hmm ! Been thinking .

Guidelines ?, Guidelines?, Guidelines?.

While Driving the Highways of our Country this Mid morning . I, By chance came around a bend in the Road and Spied 3 Of our Finest Standing in the Middle of it ! . Sure wasnt I alright . I wasnt Packing , they only wanted to see if my Windscreen was clean ! , it was of course . So off I went , about my bizz only to find a lady and 2 kids In the middle of the road at a Later bend . Never One around when you want one is there ?.

All true , but seriously . If I Did have a Gun in my car . In , as On the Back seat , or whatever inside the cabin , in a slip or otherwise and it was Spied Upon and pull in Im told to do .
What then ? Might happen to me as per the Garda Commissioners Guidelines page 16 . I am in breach of the guidelines ! . Is that sufficent grounds for revocation , or should I just get a boliking ?.

Back to Ammo . Why would a Super , who knows me not , cut the rounds allowed on one gun in half ?. He is within the Guidleines and No doubt within his rights , but why would he do it ?.
Might it be that , The Men in the Blue Blazzers with the Woodcock Badge were scoring well in Court ?. A way to get just a small one back , for the other Blue Team , one that wouldnt have much chance of being over turned ?.

Anyone got any idea what role if any the Nargc might play in an appeal of this nature ?.

For that matter would anyone like to tell me what role the NARGC should have , period . Re Shotgun shooters , Rifle shooters and Handgun shooters .
a somewhat wider question I know , but one that I will come back to ,

QUACK , QUACK , DONT , Shoot the messenger !

Please dont bite , if one cant have a laugh on a sunny evening , while discussing a Serious topic or otherwise , then ,
Mea maxima culpa

Witcher

GADWALL wrote: »

For that matter would anyone like to tell me what role the NARGC should have , period . Re Shotgun shooters , Rifle shooters and Handgun shooters .
a somewhat wider question I know , but one that I will come back to ,

I think the NARGC stated a while back that they will only offer support to people who are in full compliance with legislation and guidelines. So if you get in trouble for having a firearm on the back seat of your car etc...don't look to the NARGC for help.

GADWALL

Hi ,
you are correct . they make it Quite clear on their website that they will not support anyone that maybe found to have transgressed the list att.

I was Rather wondering In terms of my , Decrease in Ammo allowence and Being a person , Who Has Not Fallen Fowl ! The Commandments as set out below ,


1. Possession of a firearm without a certificate for that gun. This is an offence which every gun owner is aware of. Do not come to NARGC for assistance.

2. Threatening or the alleged threatening of another person. This is an offence and it is not for NARGC to convince the authorities that no threat occurred. That is for the person involved. Do not come to NARGC for assistance.

3. Gun stolen from an unattended vehicle. This has been highlighted so many times by both NARGC and the authorities. It can never be excused. Do not come to NARGC for assistance.

4. Theft of guns or ammunition from an unoccupied house where the guns are not stored in a gun safe and/or where the keys to the safe are left available and/or where the doors of the house are not locked and/or where the alarm, if fitted, is not activated. Do not come to NARGC for assistance.

5. Bringing a loaded firearm into a vehicle or dwelling. Do not come to NARGC for assistance.

6. Licence holder charged with or convicted of substance abuse, including alcohol abuse (e.g. drink driving). Do not come to NARGC for assistance.


7. Hunting on lands without the permission of the owner/occupier. Do not come to NARGC for assistance.

8. Shooting from a vehicle. Do not come to NARGC for assistance.

9. Shooting from a public road. Do not come to NARGC for assistance.

10. Loaning a firearm to another. Do not come to NARGC for assistance.

11. Any event, where you are blatantly in breach of the conditions which formed the basis of your having been granted a firearms certificate. Do not come to NARGC for assistance.

12. Shooting recklessly or in such a manner as would reasonably give rise to concern by members of the public, landowners or other sports shooters. Do not come to the NARGC for assistance.

Cass

Has your ammo limit been cut? Or is it only a "threat" that it will be cut?

The reason i ask is, as i said earlier, the pre-populated renewals have your current limit on them. Now while they can change this i think with renewals getting into full swing they will be busy and not have time to seek ot an individual to purposely cut their ammo limit.

The NARGC may be a tool to use, but without being defeatist, i doubt a reduction in ammo would be a major issue for them. I stand to be corrected there, and am only hazarding a guess with no official statement for or against to back it up or refute it.

I would not get too wound up about it just yet. The NARGC or any body cannot do anything until such a reduction has been made so there is o point contacting them until a cut has been made. Otherwise i suspect you will get "come back to us if anything happens" response.

GADWALL

A threat to cut .

I have 12 months to run before I get that , renewal , But my plan is Funds in hand and finding the Right gun I intend to Sub that with a 20 Gauge . So I will be sticking my Head above the Parapet , Again .

So In effect you would then be correct. Nothing has happened as yet and a wait UNTIL , response might be the one id get .

Well to be honest and please dont think I was Baiting a trap for anyone , what I was in fact doing was giving the NARGC , more time to come back to me before I mentioned it. I rang them and e mailed them 3 days ago .

My call was answered, number taken and e mail sent off to them and was being expected . Response Nada !

Now for the record . I had a question or 2 for Chris Gavican early this year and he went out of his way to help me , ringing me back several times . So maybe Im Im being to hard on them ?, or reading to many Issues of Irish Shooters Digest where you find the Bullets and pellets come whizzing off the Page , You know the Page or 2 , as you read ! Hot Lead ! going in all directions , Hence my Super gets Even Theory ! ???????????
Cynical or correct ?, a bit of both maybe ?.

Sparks

GADWALL wrote: »

Cynical or correct ?, a bit of both maybe ?.

A lot of both, I'd say (and have said). You can't poke a bear forever without it getting annoy and swatting you...

GADWALL

Plan, B in formation .

now wheres my Club Chairmans Number ?.

German pointer

Sparks wrote: »

No, for having more than the amount on their licences and thinking that the Gardai couldn't come and look.

I must have took it up wrong.

Tikkat3

surprised to see this thread is still going on? I would have thought that everything is answered and it is becoming a pedantic and hypothetical thread and if it is, thats ok too