Gay Marriage/Marriage Equality/End of World?

Brian Shanahan

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Feck. The quality of the Lassi is bound to suffer.

On topic - did anyone hear Joeeeeee Duffy today?
These people can vote.
We're doooomed.

No, I wish to live a good life full of sunshine and joy. Listening to Joe's grating cant would ruin that wish.

PopePalpatine

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

No, I wish to live a good life full of sunshine and joy. Listening to Joe's grating cant would ruin that wish.

Ah, jaaaaaaaaaaaaysiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis...[/David McSavage as Joe Duffy]

SpaceTime

It's a bit sexist too. I used to go looking for my grandad when I was very upset as a kid!

Mammy was more about telling me to do my homework!

Also the best bed time stories were definitely my dad.

Message coming across is largely "men are incapable of emotions or child care"... Absolutely not the case!

obplayer

robindch wrote: »

Mod: That's not how debate works, mac.

You're the one making claims about the gay community so it's up to you to substantiate the claims or withdraw them. If you refuse to substantiate your claims then your claims will be withdrawn by default and people will be free to carry on the debate as though they were no longer your views.

Mods here in A+A don't usually need to make this basic rule of debate as clear as I've done here, but it seems necessary in your case. For clarity, if you don't substantiate you claims, one of the moderators will formally withdraw them for you.

All this over one video...
I'm sorry..

swampgas

Breda O'Brien is repeating the same old adoption misdirection in Saturday's Irish Times, along with a (IMO) rather chilling "Love is not enough" heading.
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/breda-o-brien-love-is-not-enough-when-it-comes-to-children-s-rights-1.2077548


The comments section has one rebuttal in particular, by a Seamus White, which I thought pretty accurate:

Breda O'Brien's position is illogical and indeed anti-children.

Her Iona Institute believes that children benefit from having married parents. Yet she wants to deny some children the benefits of having married parents.

Children with same sex parents will still have same sex parents whichever way the referendum on Marriage Equality goes. If there's a Yes vote, these children's parents will be able to get married.

Breda and Iona's opposition to Marriage Equality is anti-children for a second reason - she wants children who are growing up gay to be discriminated on the basis of their sexuality when they are adults.

Whenever the Opponents mention issues to do with children's rights they really need to be challenged on their anti-children views.«

Brian Shanahan

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I am slightly confused - you say you are a non- native English speaker (although I have notice you slip in to fluency on occasion) , you seem to have little knowledge or understanding of Irish society or history, so I am guessing you are a fairly recent arrival - can you actually vote in this referendum?

I'm guessing that macyard is one of the yanks that iona have to fly in to get their protests over the tiny number of their actual adherents (what is it these days? 8 people?).

smokingman

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

I'm guessing that macyard is one of the yanks that iona have to fly in to get their protests over the tiny number of their actual adherents (what is it these days? 8 people?).

Funnily enough, there is another...
..who is currently plying the poly thing from the same script over in AH.

Bannasidhe

smokingman wrote: »

Funnily enough, there is another...
..who is currently plying the poly thing from the same script over in AH.

Interesting to see if this new contributor in AH will suddenly come over all 'Allah gonna take over Ireland an biatchslap you all' as well. That was a laugh out loud moment.

Does their command of English fluctuate between fluency and nospeekagoodly too?

MrPudding

macyard wrote: »

I still think children are best raise with a family with a m/f and single parents are worst option if all else is equal, you just should not be bring put kids in a marriage debate.

Can you clarify please, is this a 'I have read all the material which was presented to me, which included a large number of peer reviewed studies, several books and a number of statements by organisations working in areas such a psychiatry and child welfare, all of which strongly suggest that there is no difference for children raised by same sex couples and opposite sex couples, but having read all this my opinion has not changed and I will shortly be providing sufficient evidence to rebut the preponderance of evidence disagreeing with me' or 'fcuk you, I am not going to bother my arse reading all that sh1t. I know what I know, after all I had a mother and father and look how good I turned out. Everyone just knows a mother and father is best' kind of statement of fact?

MrP

david75

Excellent read but whoever wrote it 'went there' about Quinns adopted children. https://walkcork.wordpress.com/2015/01/22/arguments-against-same-sex-marriage/#comment-11

smokingman

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Interesting to see if this new contributor in AH will suddenly come over all 'Allah gonna take over Ireland an biatchslap you all' as well. That was a laugh out loud moment.

Does their fluency in English fluctuate between fluency and nospeekagoodly too?

I'm sure that will happen soon but only a few grammar mistakes so far. Much the same as the first one to begin with.

swampgas

david75 wrote: »

Excellent read but whoever wrote it 'went there' about Quinns adopted children. https://walkcork.wordpress.com/2015/01/22/arguments-against-same-sex-marriage/#comment-11

He didn't name names though.

david75

The red c poll results were interesting.
Seems Ionas seeds of doubt have taken hold here and there

swampgas

david75 wrote: »

The red c poll results were interesting.
Seems Ionas seeds of doubt have taken hold here and there

I expect they will stick to their Goebbels strategy of lying consistently, loudly, and often. Given the ridiculous amount of media coverage they get, it's bound to make an impact. They really are running a shamefully dishonest and dirty campaign, I hope some of them realise that one day and hang their heads in shame.

Going Strong

david75 wrote: »

The red c poll results were interesting.
Seems Ionas seeds of doubt have taken hold here and there

I think the "Soft Yes" comment is the most worrying for proponents of SSM. I've noticed how few people in my social circle are bothered about the issue. Not that they've anything against SSM, more that they don't see it as concerning them so aren't going to be voting at all.

I still think it'll pass but I feel it will be a very close thing on a very low turn out.

Cabaal

swampgas wrote: »

I expect they will stick to their Goebbels strategy of lying consistently, loudly, and often. Given the ridiculous amount of media coverage they get, it's bound to make an impact. They really are running a shamefully dishonest and dirty campaign, I hope some of them realise that one day and hang their heads in shame.

Shameful, dirty and dishonest.... Isn't that how most Catholic organisations work against stuff they hate? Sounds like business as usual to me

aloyisious

This is an opinion-piece by a heterosexual 16 year-old male on the debate about same-sex marriage. It is worth reading and raises one point also mentioned in the piece posted by david75, that about also making the rights of children within same-sex parented families equal to those of the children in hetero-parented families. That the children of all families should be treated equally, not being damned by association and tagged as losing-out due to their parents sexuality.

A large part of the opponents case is based on the children and how they are caring for the children, while using the children as a tool in their fight to stop equal marriage, blithely ignoring the fact that their planned actions affect the children in existing same-sex parented families, and will have the same effect on children in those same-sex families that will come into existence, regardless of the opposition, if they win the national debate amongst voters. Let no one be of the illusion that Breda O'Brien and other speakers from Iona don't know what they are saying when they speak; the do know and they also know the effect that their words have on children within existing same-sex families. If you get into a cool debate with Iona-ists, ask them for their answer to it. If they attempt to side-step your question with questions or another issue, say "I would prefer you answer the question I put to you".

http://spunout.ie/opinion/article/opponents-of-marriage-equality-have-a-tough-battle-on-their-hands.

Daith

Going Strong wrote: »

I still think it'll pass but I feel it will be a very close thing on a very low turn out.

Polls are worthless. I'm hoping for 51%.

aloyisious

Listening to the Marian Finucane show now. One male panel member is saying that changing the constitution will affect article 41 and will prevent any other changes being made in the future, that it will affect what's in the upcoming Protection bill. He's following the Iona-ist line of think and speech: it will have a negative affect on the children.

PS: I have got past the "fuming" issue when I hear this type of talk. Iona-ists are using it as a weapon against SSM proponents, hoping we will lose the rag and lash out, making us seem incapable of debating without vitriol.

Edit: ta david75, for speaker's I/D. Nurture V nature

david75

aloyisious wrote: »

Listening to the Marian Finucane show now. One male panel member is saying that changing the constitution will affect article 41 and will prevent any other changes being made in the future, that it will affect what's in the upcoming Protection bill.

Hes breda O briens son..are you surprised?

he's also a lying neanderthal

LookingFor

aloyisious wrote: »

Listening to the Marian Finucane show now. One male panel member is saying that changing the constitution will affect article 41 and will prevent any other changes being made in the future, that it will affect what's in the upcoming Protection bill.

This is the agreed line of attack since the government announced the Children & Family Relationships bill would be passed in advance of the referendum, to try and tie the two back together.

It's patently false though. The constitutionality of a marriage, and factors the constitution are agnostic to therein, has absolutely nothing to do with adoption law and factors that can be - and are - used in evaluation and consent process for adoption. The constitutionality of a marriage is not some big rubber stamp to a 'right' to adopt or even the 'right' to be evaluated equal on any factor the constitution is agnostic to with regard to marriage. You only have to look at religion or income level in marriage law or constitution (agnostic) vs adoption law (not agnostic).

aloyisious

Now this is surprising, but maybe Ronan is correct.... "We haven't really even had the debate yet in the country about the referendum. We have had a lot of lifestyle commentary but not any substantive debate. Based in rural Ireland, it isn't an issue that is coming up at all. I wouldn't have put the referendum or leading with it as a policy choice," he said.

The quote is from this article in the Indo', (Para 2) said para titled "lifestyle", humph. http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/dont-make-samesex-marriage-poll-about-personality-senator-30917898.html

SpaceTime

All I know is that if this doesn't pass it'll be a very big blow to Ireland's reputation abroad. We'll be sending out a message that we're backwards looking religious fundamentalists and will be mentioned in the same breath as Russia etc.

I think it's reasonable to say that we are trying to turn ourselves into an attractive place for creative, innovative software companies, financial services, possibly encourage UK companies to HQ here, especially if the UK exited the EU.

If we're seen as a backwards homophobic place, that will impact people's decisions to move here.

It'll also drive Irish gay people abroad too as it's something that would be a major slap in the face. Why would you be bothered paying tax in a country that treated you like a 2nd class citizen and where that had been confirmed by majority vote?

If Iona are going to pull a "think of the children " stunt I'm going to put this into pure economic terms. - A no vote could cost us jobs and inward investment. These things factor into where someone opts to locate and we already have a big liberal next-door neighbour that's highly attractive to move to.

We already damaged our international reputation with that dammed blasphemy law! I mean it would make you think twice about hosting data here or runing an online media operation as it rode roughshod over freedom of speech and freedom of the press.

A no vote on gay marriage will just coperfasten the widely held but erroneous view that Ireland is in a 1950s timewarp.

This stuff isn't theoretical discussions about high level theocracy, it has real impacts on real families and individuals and they will vote with their feet and with their wallets. That's just how life works!

The international media will also run stories about Ireland's deeply conservative past and generally make us look like a bunch of weirdos.

Your choice here is : progressive, modern, forward looking Ireland or to retreat to the 1950s and join places we sneer and refer to as Red Neck states in the US.

aloyisious

I picked this (also a boards.ie thread - don't know what forum) up on facebook, directly related thread to this one.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057365334&page.

smokingman

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Interesting to see if this new contributor in AH will suddenly come over all 'Allah gonna take over Ireland an biatchslap you all' as well. That was a laugh out loud moment.

Does their command of English fluctuate between fluency and nospeekagoodly too?

Quite surprisinly, he just came straight out with "I'm getting paid for this", after my pointing out about media companies I know of that do this sort of thing.

david75

SpaceTime wrote: »

All I know is that if this doesn't pass it'll be a very big blow to Ireland's reputation abroad. We'll be sending out a message that we're backwards looking religious fundamentalists and will be mentioned in the same breath as Russia etc.

I think it's reasonable to say that we are trying to turn ourselves into an attractive place for creative, innovative software companies, financial services, possibly encourage UK companies to HQ here, especially if the UK exited the EU.

If we're seen as a backwards homophobic place, that will impact people's decisions to move here.

It'll also drive Irish gay people abroad too as it's something that would be a major slap in the face. Why would you be bothered paying tax in a country that treated you like a 2nd class citizen and where that had been confirmed by majority vote?

If Iona are going to pull a "think of the children " stunt I'm going to put this into pure economic terms. - A no vote could cost us jobs and inward investment. These things factor into where someone opts to locate and we already have a big liberal next-door neighbour that's highly attractive to move to.

We already damaged our international reputation with that dammed blasphemy law! I mean it would make you think twice about hosting data here or runing an online media operation as it rode roughshod over freedom of speech and freedom of the press.

A no vote on gay marriage will just coperfasten the widely held but erroneous view that Ireland is in a 1950s timewarp.

This stuff isn't theoretical discussions about high level theocracy, it has real impacts on real families and individuals and they will vote with their feet and with their wallets. That's just how life works!

The international media will also run stories about Ireland's deeply conservative past and generally make us look like a bunch of weirdos.

Your choice here is : progressive, modern, forward looking Ireland or to retreat to the 1950s and join places we sneer and refer to as Red Neck states in the US.

Even the rednecks have moved forward..same sex marriage ban was struck down in Alabama only yesterday!

SpaceTime

david75 wrote: »

Even the rednecks have moved forward..same sex marriage ban was struck down in Alabama only yesterday!

Thankfully Federal Law exists and is relatively progressive in the US. Those states would be languishing in the 1850s otherwise!

swampgas

aloyisious wrote: »

The quote is from this article in the Indo', (Para 2) said para titled "lifestyle", humph. http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/dont-make-samesex-marriage-poll-about-personality-senator-30917898.html

In the linked article Ronan Mullen says about Leo Varadkar:

"This is not about his personal life and I wish him all the best in his personal life," he said.

... which is insincere and hypocritical nonsense. Suppose Leo wants to get married? What then? How is this not relevant to Leo's personal life? Or does Ronan think he knows Leo's personal life better than Leo himself? Arrogant little ****.

lazygal

There is also the problem of people who married in other countries yet can't get their marriages recognised here so they can be treated equally. There's companies who can't get people to come and work here because of the restrictive laws on reproductive rights. Why would you come to a country that won't recognise your legally binding marriage contracted elsewhere? Or one that's solution to every pregnancy is to remain pregnant?

Bannasidhe

lazygal wrote: »

There is also the problem of people who married in other countries yet can't get their marriages recognised here so they can be treated equally. There's companies who can't get people to come and work here because of the restrictive laws on reproductive rights. Why would you come to a country that won't recognise your legally binding marriage contracted elsewhere? Or one that's solution to every pregnancy is to remain pregnant?

Or to put it another way:

Hey - investors - come to a country where a member of the government got married in another country because he couldn't do so in his own and as soon as he arrived home had his marriage reclassified as a partnership and downgraded by 160 points...

If that doesn't have them queuing up we can tell them how our Minister for Health is barred from giving blood...