Cash Aid for the stranded "Pilots"

Fulton Crown

Is I missin sommat here ?

These goons signed up for a private course which they hoped would gain them entry to the lucrative world of commercial aviation.

Fair enough! I have no issue with that .

Then this private course goes belly up and you have assorted mothers whinging to Govt Ministers and expecting John Q Taxpayer to pick up the tab !

Hello ?

Why in the freek would they expect that.....some "entitlement" culture there .

Thank freek the Vrad sent them packing ...good to see someone in authority with some balls refusing to let John Q be bullied.

Private course Dudes.....risk involved in these things....appreciate you were unlucky.....but hey ! thats life ...suck it up and stop expecting the taxpayer to bail you out.

racso1975

Freeky

ringadingding

I recall the mother in the indo article sounding veeeery entitled about getting a refund or a free course from the Irish government, I mean, really ? From the Irish government ?

On what planet does that compute ?

It doesn't matter if it was a pilots course or a trolley collectors course, it was a private course with private rewards and risks ....

Royal Legend

ringadingding wrote: »

I recall the mother in the indo article sounding veeeery entitled about getting a refund or a free course from the Irish government, I mean, really ? From the Irish government ?

On what planet does that compute ?

It doesn't matter if it was a pilots course or a trolley collectors course, it was a private course with private rewards and risks ....

The course costs over €100k so its possible that either the parents have loads of money to throw away on their precious child or that they have invested heavily by re-mortgage the house. I knew someone once whose parents paid out this kind of money and he didn't become a pilot in the end :eek:

Scioch

Royal Legend wrote: »

The course costs over €100k so its possible that either the parents have loads of money to throw away on their precious child or that they have invested heavily by re-mortgage the house. I knew someone once whose parents paid out this kind of money and he didn't become a pilot in the end :eek:

Course costs 100k but to even get that far from what I know you need a small aircraft licence which has to be gotten from so many hours flying which you can only start to log after so many hours training all of which have to be paid for.

Its not a poor man's game thats for sure.

looksee

So instead of going on the dole, which would be an acceptable form of entitlement these families went to considerable expense to put their offspring through a course which hopefully would lead to employment.

It wasn't supposed to be a gamble, like buying stocks and shares - how many people here have government secured bank accounts? There isn't a fas course in flying planes (thank god). You have to take a chance and pay up to do the course.

Of course if they did not, then the airlines would have to say sorry, no more cheap flights to the Costa Whatsit, we don't have enough pilots. They take a chance, hope to qualify at huge expense for a very skilled job and have your life in their hands.

Money was poured into the company, but no-one was keeping an eye on what they did with it. These people bought a product from what was effectively a government sponsored firm. I don't know who should be responsible, but I do think that they should be able to finish their training.

The attitude of 'obviously they are well off so **** them' is stupid and short sighted, no-one here knows what loans were taken out, or savings raided to support them. Its not as though the place is awash with jobs, these are people who have got up off their back-sides and tried to do something for themselves. You have to look a lot closer to home for the real 'entitlement culture'.

bnt

Is this the same story that came out two weeks ago (RTE)? Now an examiner has been appointed, so they're basically bust (RTE). If you want to read what working pilots are saying about this, have a look at the thread on the Professional Pilots Rumour Network (PPRuNe), here. Not much sympathy there either.

It's not so much a case of expecting the government to provide compensation. But the flight school in question was licensed by the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA), which means the government is already involved. If such certification isn't going to at least partly protect students, then what's the point? The IAA is looking at the situation and has released an update:

At a hearing in the High Court on 18 July 2012 an Interim Examiner was appointed to handle the affairs of PTC Ireland. The IAA will work with the Interim Examiner in assessing the options available in respect of the suspended approvals issued by the Authority.

Creditors of PTC Ireland will be notified of the outcome of the hearing and advised of their options.

No promises, in other words.

Royal Legend

looksee wrote: »

So instead of going on the dole, which would be an acceptable form of entitlement these families went to considerable expense to put their offspring through a course which hopefully would lead to employment.

It wasn't supposed to be a gamble, like buying stocks and shares - how many people here have government secured bank accounts? There isn't a fas course in flying planes (thank god). You have to take a chance and pay up to do the course.

Of course if they did not, then the airlines would have to say sorry, no more cheap flights to the Costa Whatsit, we don't have enough pilots. They take a chance, hope to qualify at huge expense for a very skilled job and have your life in their hands.

Money was poured into the company, but no-one was keeping an eye on what they did with it. These people bought a product from what was effectively a government sponsored firm. I don't know who should be responsible, but I do think that they should be able to finish their training.

The attitude of 'obviously they are well off so **** them' is stupid and short sighted, no-one here knows what loans were taken out, or savings raided to support them. Its not as though the place is awash with jobs, these are people who have got up off their back-sides and tried to do something for themselves. You have to look a lot closer to home for the real 'entitlement culture'.

It should not be the taxpayer, there are lotsof people who have lost employment and got f all in return, the waterford glass workers lost millions in their pensions, should the government re-pay them what they lost, got off their backsides my ar5e, more like their parents tried to buy them a job.

Elessar

The big mistake these guys made was paying UP FRONT that kind of money to a company for their training.

All of the pilots I know with a few brain cells between their ears paid for their training as they went along. You DO NOT cough up that kind of money for training to any company up front, ever, for anything. Just look what can happen.

In saying that, I feel for the kids involved. That's their dreams down the toilet. But it has nothing to do with the taxpayer.

donkey balls

There is a tread about it over on the aviation forum which is very detailed about the flight school owner and as for the school that went bust,It had a dodgey rep they charged 98k for training that if you did it yourself using different schools between here Florida would cost about 60k/.
This is not the first time that a school went bang and left students high and dry and a quick Google search of the school would have brought you to the likes of boards and pprune and other websites telling people to stay away from the school.
Even the advertising authority in the UK warned the school about misleading adverts,also another Irish based company called sigmar aviation went bust yet it was never mentioned in the media.

Scioch

Royal Legend wrote: »

It should not be the taxpayer, there are lotsof people who have lost employment and got f all in return, the waterford glass workers lost millions in their pensions, should the government re-pay them what they lost, got off their backsides my ar5e, more like their parents tried to buy them a job.

And I have no issue with that. If I had the money I'd do whatever I could to get my kids ahead. But as you say its their problem not the taxpayers.

Royal Legend

Lets put this in some perspective, If you were going to invest a significant amount of money, (or maybe not so significant in some cases) you would do a background check into what you were spending or investing money in, well I would anyway.

From 2010

http://www.asa.org.uk/Asa-Action/Adjudications/2010/10/The-Pilot-Training-College/TF_ADJ_49147.aspx

Again there was another travel firm that went bust this week, shoud the taxpayer pay for everyone to get a re-fund?

ejmaztec

Looking at the figures for The Pilot Training School, I'm surprised the plug wasn't pulled on them at least 4 years ago. They've had a multi-million Euro deficit for that time at least.

http://cashiq.net/company/info/IE/IE357712


If a sensible person was going to fork out big bucks, they would have done a company search, and then not handed over a cent based on the available company information.

mikemac1

Shame they didn't pay hour by hour or work out some plan.


But you don't have to train with a troubled Irish company.
Lots of flight schools in the UK, there is one in Oxford that has been running for decades

bnt

By the sounds of it (from the PPRuNe thread I linked to), the PTC was basically operating a Ponzi scheme towards the end. They needed new students to pay in full up front so that they could pay for the training of existing students. The flow of new students dried up, understandably, and that's the end of that.

I mean, they were basically an agency, a middleman. They didn't actually provide the bulk of training: that was done in Florida, by FIT Aviation. There are claims and counter-claims about that business relationship that will surely end up in court. PTC is claiming that FIT provided poor training that took too long, while FIT is claiming that PTC were very slow in paying for the training.

falconflyer83 on PPRuNe wrote:

To sum this up :

PTC owes money to :

- FIT for 1M€
- the IAA for 400K€
- the students for an unknown amount of money

The money has "disappeared" and the company has 10M€ in debt, but the CEO has plenty of money.

There must be a black hole somewhere, absorbing any euro or dollar floating around. And if that's the case, it will be proven as soon as the Justice investigates the accounts of PTC.

ejmaztec

bnt wrote: »

By the sounds of it (from the PPRuNe thread I linked to), the PTC was basically operating a Ponzi scheme towards the end. They needed new students to pay in full up front so that they could pay for the training of existing students. The flow of new students dried up, understandably, and that's the end of that.

I mean, they were basically an agency, a middleman. They didn't actually provide the bulk of training: that was done in Florida, by FIT Aviation. There are claims and counter-claims about that business relationship that will surely end up in court. PTC is claiming that FIT provided poor training that took too long, while FIT is claiming that PTC were very slow in paying for the training.

No doubt all kinds of crap involving several parties will be out of the woodwork in relation to the company, because the figures in the public domain stink to high heaven. It looks to me that whatever went on, went on for a long time. There are going to be some heads rolling.

token101

Paying college fees shouldn't be a gamble FFS.

eth0

You order a new car from some car company abroad and before it gets delivered that company goes bankrupt.

Like totally OMG Hellooooo?!?!?

Of course you're not entitled to a refund! serves ya right for buying a car off a foreign company and not the Irish government you should be supporting in these times of trouble. Damn capitalist.

That 100k these lads spent went somewhere, and the govt should be doing their best to extract it from wherever it went. The whole pilot industry is a bit of a scam anyway, first 50k+ to do a course, then 20k+ a year "pay to work" hour-building scam on a Honduran crapheap full of chickens with the landing gear attached with bailer twine and half a wing missing only then will an airline think of taking you on.

I feel sorry for anyone caught up in this.. Loss of big money and career delayed. But it's not the public's problem.

end of the road

Royal Legend wrote: »

It should not be the taxpayer, there are lotsof people who have lost employment and got f all in return,

so because they couldn't get anything nobody else can.

Royal Legend wrote: »

got off their backsides my ar5e,

oh but you did of course. the parents spent money on getting their kids on a course in the hopes of getting a good job. stupidly, but they did it. hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Royal Legend wrote: »

more like their parents tried to buy them a job.

sounds like your the tippical irish begrudger. your obviously jealous because you don't and never will have the money to (buy your kids a job)

end of the road

Fulton Crown wrote: »

thats life ...
no it isn't. sounds like you would put up with any old thing and use the excuse ah shur thats life, the banks and the politicians screwed up this country but ah shur thats life suck it up.

Fulton Crown wrote: »

suck it up and stop expecting the taxpayer to bail you out.

no they won't.

wendell borton

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Is I missin sommat here ?

These goons signed up for a private course which they hoped would gain them entry to the lucrative world of commercial aviation.

Fair enough! I have no issue with that .

Then this private course goes belly up and you have assorted mothers whinging to Govt Ministers and expecting John Q Taxpayer to pick up the tab !

Hello ?

Why in the freek would they expect that.....some "entitlement" culture there .

Thank freek the Vrad sent them packing ...good to see someone in authority with some balls refusing to let John Q be bullied.

Private course Dudes.....risk involved in these things....appreciate you were unlucky.....but hey ! thats life ...suck it up and stop expecting the taxpayer to bail you out.

In fairness commercial aviationation is not what it used to be in this age of budget airlines. Airlines are cutting back on non essential services, pilot training included.

The goverment pay for 3rd level students many who leave with nothing and fas courses that leave people even less likely to find employent so why not give some help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKQJx3L_CDQ

road_high

Elessar wrote: »

The big mistake these guys made was paying UP FRONT that kind of money to a company for their training.

All of the pilots I know with a few brain cells between their ears paid for their training as they went along. You DO NOT cough up that kind of money for training to any company up front, ever, for anything. Just look what can happen.

In saying that, I feel for the kids involved. That's their dreams down the toilet. But it has nothing to do with the taxpayer.

That is a very good point. Who pays upfront 100% for any course, costing up to 100k? Seems crazy.

eth0

mfitzy wrote: »

That is a very good point. Who pays upfront 100% for any course, costing up to 100k? Seems crazy.

For a pilot course it isn't anything out of the ordinary I think

Nodin

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Is I missin sommat here ?

These goons signed up for a private course which they hoped would gain them entry to the lucrative world of commercial aviation.

Fair enough! I have no issue with that .

..............

Then why are they "goons"?

opinion guy

See this is what happens when you start bailing out private companies like.....I dunno banks.

Every Tom, Dick & Harry wants you to bail him out later on:rolleyes:

blindsider

looksee wrote: »

So instead of going on the dole, which would be an acceptable form of entitlement these families went to considerable expense to put their offspring through a course which hopefully would lead to employment.

It wasn't supposed to be a gamble, like buying stocks and shares - how many people here have government secured bank accounts? There isn't a fas course in flying planes (thank god). You have to take a chance and pay up to do the course.

Of course if they did not, then the airlines would have to say sorry, no more cheap flights to the Costa Whatsit, we don't have enough pilots. They take a chance, hope to qualify at huge expense for a very skilled job and have your life in their hands.

Money was poured into the company, but no-one was keeping an eye on what they did with it. These people bought a product from what was effectively a government sponsored firm. I don't know who should be responsible, but I do think that they should be able to finish their training.

The attitude of 'obviously they are well off so **** them' is stupid and short sighted, no-one here knows what loans were taken out, or savings raided to support them. Its not as though the place is awash with jobs, these are people who have got up off their back-sides and tried to do something for themselves. You have to look a lot closer to home for the real 'entitlement culture'.

I know EI invested in the College - is that what you mean by Govt-sponsored?

EI would have a very different opinion to you - and they would have signed contracts reflecting this.

The Govt had no duty or obligation here - PTC is a private company. EI companies have gone bust in the past and the govt has not stepped in.

I don't subscribe to the 'rich parents paying for rich kids' theory, I'm sure people are losing money they can ill-afford to lose - but i don't see the connection between the Govt and tax-payers (me included) and the trainee pilots.

Sky King

The rich kids notion is totally inaccurate, most trainee pilots are late 20's early 30's (engineers accounts etc etc) who scrimped, saved and borrowed heavily to fund training for the job of their dreams.

This is unfortunate but they are well within their right to ask for help. They probably wont get it anyway.

Fulton Crown

Nodin wrote: »

Then why are they "goons"?

Not sure if I follow your strange logic Dude ?

They were goons because they paid a huge wedge in advance to a dodgy company...which even a cursory financial check would have shown up.

I say again I have no problem with this..because what they do with their own cash is their own business..

What I have a problem with is these people and their representatives haranguing
and browbeating Govt Ministers to pony up with the cash to help them finish the course.

Why ?

Can't understand the sense of entitlement there ....like if I paid a solicitor €100k up front as a deposit on a house and he went belly up/absconded ....would the taxpayer cover my loss...I think not !.

Why would they do it in the case of the trainee pilots...explain that to me Dude. ?

the groutch

these are probably the same people who as teenagers were doing their bagpacking in the supermarkets to get complete strangers to fund their African holiday.

SocSocPol

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Not sure if I follow your strange logic Dude ?

They were goons because they paid a huge wedge in advance to a dodgy company...which even a cursory financial check would have shown up.

I say again I have no problem with this..because what they do with their own cash is their own business..

What I have a problem with is these people and their representatives haranguing
and browbeating Govt Ministers to pony up with the cash to help them finish the course.

Why ?

Can't understand the sense of entitlement there ....like if I paid a solicitor €100k up front as a deposit on a house and he went belly up/absconded ....would the taxpayer cover my loss...I think not !.

Why would they do it in the case of the trainee pilots...explain that to me Dude. ?

Your loss dude would be like covered like dude by the like dude Law Society dude like

Nodin

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Not sure if I follow your strange logic Dude ?

They were goons because they paid a huge wedge in advance to a dodgy company...which even a cursory financial check would have shown up.

The company had the cloak of respectability for some years, so why would they check it? Huge fees are common in some fields.

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Why ?

Can't understand the sense of entitlement there ....like if I paid a solicitor €100k up front as a deposit on a house and he went belly up/absconded ....would the taxpayer cover my loss...I think not !.

You think wrong. You get compensation from the Solictors Compensation Fund.

Delancey

These students are like many thousands of others affected by businesses collapsing - they are unsecured creditors which means they get nothing. A lousy situation to be in but no way is this the fault or responsibility of any Government department or agency.

Flight schools fail with monotonous regularity , paying up front was utterly stupid particularly to a school that had a poor reputation in the aviation world.

Judging from their Facebook page many of the students seem to have literacy issues.

squod

Delancey wrote: »

Judging from their Facebook page many of the students seem to have literacy issues.

lol Srsly? ne screen caps?

Fulton Crown

SocSocPol wrote: »

Your loss dude would be like covered like dude by the like dude Law Society dude like

I know that pilgrim...but if you read my post my question was would the loss be covered by the taxpayer...I even underlined the word taxpayer to make it clear.

So pal .....would my loss be covered by the TAXPAYER ?.

Anythin about that you don't understand ?

Fulton Crown

The company had the cloak of respectability for some years, so why would they check it? Huge fees are common in some fields.

Heh heh you are obviously a socialist pal...sorry to be so blunt but only goons would pay €100k upfront and not do a due diligence check on the guys they were payin it to .

You think wrong. You get compensation from the Solictors Compensation Fund.

Read my post horse .....here Ill ask you again...would I get compensation from the (speaks very slowly and distinctly) TAXPAYER.?

Hmmmmm ?

Fulton Crown

Delancey wrote: »

These students are like many thousands of others affected by businesses collapsing - they are unsecured creditors which means they get nothing. A lousy situation to be in but no way is this the fault or responsibility of any Government department or agency.

Flight schools fail with monotonous regularity , paying up front was utterly stupid particularly to a school that had a poor reputation in the aviation world.

Judging from their Facebook page many of the students seem to have literacy issues.

Spot on poster.....spot on.....

ejmaztec

Nodin wrote: »

The company had the cloak of respectability for some years, so why would they check it? Huge fees are common in some fields.

I'd be interested to know they managed to do this, as professional persons/organisations etc outside of the company obviously knew about the company's state of affairs.

eth0

ejmaztec wrote: »

I'd be interested to know they managed to do this, as professional persons/organisations etc outside of the company obviously knew about the company's state of affairs.

This happens with a lot of companies. Enron, Anglo irish. Both mighty companies till the day it was anounced that they made a balls of it

CatFromHue

I think the students might be barking up the wrong tree but I'm half thinking they know this themselves. In any negotiation process you originally look for more than you want to give you a position to negotiate down from and still win.

Even if they don't they're still out there making people pay attention to their plight, they're not accepting the raw deal they've gotten. So while I think they're misguided I applaud them for not giving in and not accepting the so called "that's the way it is", begrudgers go fcuk yourselves!

3ndahalfof6

I did a similar course, now the thing is I spent eight weeks studying and doing simulator, the problem is after they got my money I found out I was afraid of heights and there was no way I was going up,

pure waste.

ejmaztec

eth0 wrote: »

This happens with a lot of companies. Enron, Anglo irish. Both mighty companies till the day it was anounced that they made a balls of it

They fudged the figures so they looked good, whereas this particular company somehow managed to keep trading even though the published figures were dire. I'm probably not the only one wondering what the reason was.

paddyandy

We take chances with large sums of money ; when it goes wrong we expect the taxpayer to bail us out ,However in this instance did the Government have any hand act or part in all of this ?????? Let's be fair .

Fulton Crown

That is the Governments point ...they had no hand or part in any of this.

Sloppy regulation is probably the root cause behind all this...but reimbursing people for the consequences should not be the problem of the taxpayer.

I accept that the people who foolishly paid over these large sums without a due diligence check did so with the best of intentions.....but there was a risk !

Now suck it up Dudes....take the freekin pain ....and stop expecting the taxpayer to pick up the tab for your foolishness.

Kirby

Sure thing Mr Lebowski!

Skuxx

Royal Legend wrote: »

...got off their backsides my ar5e, more like their parents tried to buy them a job.

It almost sounds like your saying their parents did something wrong!! If, in the future, my kid decided they wanted to become an airline pilot, then I would do anything I could to make that happen for them!! And as for buying them a job, if you know the airline industry, these kids are a long way out from getting a job once they finish that course, especially at the moment! Airlines are only looking for guys with x number of hours on type, a newbie just out of flight school with a frozen ATPL will find it very difficult to get work! I know qualified pilots who work as cabin crew, I know a lad working in a bank, its certainly not a free pass into a 6 figure wage and a job for life that maybe the industry once was!!

Augmerson

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Now suck it up Dudes....take the freekin pain ....and stop expecting the taxpayer to pick up the tab for your foolishness.

Yeah! The taxpayer doesn't pay for this kind of crap! Just multi-billion euro bailouts to banks! Like, what are they even smoking!?!

Just so it's clear, I'm being sarcastic. I think you're an awful goon as well kid.

Show Time

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Is I missin sommat here ?

These goons signed up for a private course which they hoped would gain them entry to the lucrative world of commercial aviation.

Fair enough! I have no issue with that .

Then this private course goes belly up and you have assorted mothers whinging to Govt Ministers and expecting John Q Taxpayer to pick up the tab !

Hello ?

Why in the freek would they expect that.....some "entitlement" culture there .

Thank freek the Vrad sent them packing ...good to see someone in authority with some balls refusing to let John Q be bullied.

Private course Dudes.....risk involved in these things....appreciate you were unlucky.....but hey ! thats life ...suck it up and stop expecting the taxpayer to bail you out.

1984 Irish Shipping went tits up and nothing was done for months to look after the Irishmen and women who were stranded all over the world and these bunch of jokers are looking for money?????

end of the road

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Now suck it up Dudes.

suck what, oh you like to suck? really? oh wait no you actually suck? ah right i see, each to their own i suppose.

looksee

Royal Legend wrote: »

It should not be the taxpayer, there are lotsof people who have lost employment and got f all in return, the waterford glass workers lost millions in their pensions, should the government re-pay them what they lost, got off their backsides my ar5e, more like their parents tried to buy them a job.

I don't follow this arguement at all. I said - and RL bolded - that I did not know who should be responsible. Then RL started ranting about the taxpayers and that has been the theme since.

It is not about the government handing out refunds. It is about the government governing. Surely given our recent history there should be some sort of regulation of firms that take huge fees and don't deliver? I would think that forcing whoever is sitting on the money to repay it should be the first consideration. Is no-one demanding that they be accountable? Was the money - the government grants or the fees or both - put into the company, or syphoned off? Establishing that is the government's responsibility, not simply refunding the fees.

What really annoyed me about the first post though, was the dismissive and begrudging attitude. These people have lost significant money through, at the very least, others' incompetence, but 'that's ok, obviously they could afford it and who are they to try and improve themselves anyway'.

bluecode

I sympathised with them at first but their attitude changed my mind. Expecting the taxpayer to refund their money is a bit much.

Their big mistake was to pay upfront. But their first mistake was to try and become a pilot in the first place. Even if they had qualified some of them will have blown their money anyway. There are damm all jobs for low time pilots out there. Even if they were selected by Ryanair they would have to find another €30k to pay for their training and only earn pocket money for months until they were fully qualified. But in fact they would never have got into Ryanair anyway because Ryanair no longer recruit Irish pilots. Yes that's right they discrimate against Irish people. Not only that Ryanair hated PTC and rarely took their graduates anyway.

Ireland and Europe is flooded with newly minted low time pilots desperately looking for work. With precious few jobs. Those that do get jobs have to fund even more training for themselves so they can get low paid jobs with no job security.

It's nuts!