Cash Aid for the stranded "Pilots"

Fulton Crown · 22-07-2012 08:54AM #1

Is I missin sommat here ?

These goons signed up for a private course which they hoped would gain them entry to the lucrative world of commercial aviation.

Fair enough! I have no issue with that .

Then this private course goes belly up and you have assorted mothers whinging to Govt Ministers and expecting John Q Taxpayer to pick up the tab !

Hello ?

Why in the freek would they expect that.....some "entitlement" culture there .

Thank freek the Vrad sent them packing ...good to see someone in authority with some balls refusing to let John Q be bullied.

Private course Dudes.....risk involved in these things....appreciate you were unlucky.....but hey ! thats life ...suck it up and stop expecting the taxpayer to bail you out.

racso1975 · 22-07-2012 08:56AM

Freeky

ringadingding · 22-07-2012 09:30AM

I recall the mother in the indo article sounding veeeery entitled about getting a refund or a free course from the Irish government, I mean, really ? From the Irish government ?

On what planet does that compute ?

It doesn't matter if it was a pilots course or a trolley collectors course, it was a private course with private rewards and risks ....

Royal Legend · 22-07-2012 09:39AM

ringadingding wrote: »

I recall the mother in the indo article sounding veeeery entitled about getting a refund or a free course from the Irish government, I mean, really ? From the Irish government ?

On what planet does that compute ?

It doesn't matter if it was a pilots course or a trolley collectors course, it was a private course with private rewards and risks ....

The course costs over €100k so its possible that either the parents have loads of money to throw away on their precious child or that they have invested heavily by re-mortgage the house. I knew someone once whose parents paid out this kind of money and he didn't become a pilot in the end :eek:

Scioch · 22-07-2012 09:46AM

Royal Legend wrote: »

The course costs over €100k so its possible that either the parents have loads of money to throw away on their precious child or that they have invested heavily by re-mortgage the house. I knew someone once whose parents paid out this kind of money and he didn't become a pilot in the end :eek:

Course costs 100k but to even get that far from what I know you need a small aircraft licence which has to be gotten from so many hours flying which you can only start to log after so many hours training all of which have to be paid for.

Its not a poor man's game thats for sure.

looksee · 22-07-2012 09:49AM

So instead of going on the dole, which would be an acceptable form of entitlement these families went to considerable expense to put their offspring through a course which hopefully would lead to employment.

It wasn't supposed to be a gamble, like buying stocks and shares - how many people here have government secured bank accounts? There isn't a fas course in flying planes (thank god). You have to take a chance and pay up to do the course.

Of course if they did not, then the airlines would have to say sorry, no more cheap flights to the Costa Whatsit, we don't have enough pilots. They take a chance, hope to qualify at huge expense for a very skilled job and have your life in their hands.

Money was poured into the company, but no-one was keeping an eye on what they did with it. These people bought a product from what was effectively a government sponsored firm. I don't know who should be responsible, but I do think that they should be able to finish their training.

The attitude of 'obviously they are well off so **** them' is stupid and short sighted, no-one here knows what loans were taken out, or savings raided to support them. Its not as though the place is awash with jobs, these are people who have got up off their back-sides and tried to do something for themselves. You have to look a lot closer to home for the real 'entitlement culture'.

bnt · 22-07-2012 09:55AM

Is this the same story that came out two weeks ago (RTE)? Now an examiner has been appointed, so they're basically bust (RTE). If you want to read what working pilots are saying about this, have a look at the thread on the Professional Pilots Rumour Network (PPRuNe), here. Not much sympathy there either.

It's not so much a case of expecting the government to provide compensation. But the flight school in question was licensed by the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA), which means the government is already involved. If such certification isn't going to at least partly protect students, then what's the point? The IAA is looking at the situation and has released an update:

At a hearing in the High Court on 18 July 2012 an Interim Examiner was appointed to handle the affairs of PTC Ireland. The IAA will work with the Interim Examiner in assessing the options available in respect of the suspended approvals issued by the Authority.

Creditors of PTC Ireland will be notified of the outcome of the hearing and advised of their options.

No promises, in other words.

Royal Legend · 22-07-2012 09:57AM

looksee wrote: »

So instead of going on the dole, which would be an acceptable form of entitlement these families went to considerable expense to put their offspring through a course which hopefully would lead to employment.

It wasn't supposed to be a gamble, like buying stocks and shares - how many people here have government secured bank accounts? There isn't a fas course in flying planes (thank god). You have to take a chance and pay up to do the course.

Of course if they did not, then the airlines would have to say sorry, no more cheap flights to the Costa Whatsit, we don't have enough pilots. They take a chance, hope to qualify at huge expense for a very skilled job and have your life in their hands.

Money was poured into the company, but no-one was keeping an eye on what they did with it. These people bought a product from what was effectively a government sponsored firm. I don't know who should be responsible, but I do think that they should be able to finish their training.

The attitude of 'obviously they are well off so **** them' is stupid and short sighted, no-one here knows what loans were taken out, or savings raided to support them. Its not as though the place is awash with jobs, these are people who have got up off their back-sides and tried to do something for themselves. You have to look a lot closer to home for the real 'entitlement culture'.

It should not be the taxpayer, there are lotsof people who have lost employment and got f all in return, the waterford glass workers lost millions in their pensions, should the government re-pay them what they lost, got off their backsides my ar5e, more like their parents tried to buy them a job.

Elessar · 22-07-2012 10:01AM

The big mistake these guys made was paying UP FRONT that kind of money to a company for their training.

All of the pilots I know with a few brain cells between their ears paid for their training as they went along. You DO NOT cough up that kind of money for training to any company up front, ever, for anything. Just look what can happen.

In saying that, I feel for the kids involved. That's their dreams down the toilet. But it has nothing to do with the taxpayer.

donkey balls · 22-07-2012 10:04AM

There is a tread about it over on the aviation forum which is very detailed about the flight school owner and as for the school that went bust,It had a dodgey rep they charged 98k for training that if you did it yourself using different schools between here Florida would cost about 60k/.
This is not the first time that a school went bang and left students high and dry and a quick Google search of the school would have brought you to the likes of boards and pprune and other websites telling people to stay away from the school.
Even the advertising authority in the UK warned the school about misleading adverts,also another Irish based company called sigmar aviation went bust yet it was never mentioned in the media.

Scioch · 22-07-2012 10:04AM

Royal Legend wrote: »

It should not be the taxpayer, there are lotsof people who have lost employment and got f all in return, the waterford glass workers lost millions in their pensions, should the government re-pay them what they lost, got off their backsides my ar5e, more like their parents tried to buy them a job.

And I have no issue with that. If I had the money I'd do whatever I could to get my kids ahead. But as you say its their problem not the taxpayers.

Royal Legend · 22-07-2012 10:06AM

Lets put this in some perspective, If you were going to invest a significant amount of money, (or maybe not so significant in some cases) you would do a background check into what you were spending or investing money in, well I would anyway.

From 2010

http://www.asa.org.uk/Asa-Action/Adjudications/2010/10/The-Pilot-Training-College/TF_ADJ_49147.aspx

Again there was another travel firm that went bust this week, shoud the taxpayer pay for everyone to get a re-fund?

ejmaztec · 22-07-2012 10:31AM

Looking at the figures for The Pilot Training School, I'm surprised the plug wasn't pulled on them at least 4 years ago. They've had a multi-million Euro deficit for that time at least.

http://cashiq.net/company/info/IE/IE357712

If a sensible person was going to fork out big bucks, they would have done a company search, and then not handed over a cent based on the available company information.

mikemac1 · 22-07-2012 10:35AM

Shame they didn't pay hour by hour or work out some plan.

But you don't have to train with a troubled Irish company.
Lots of flight schools in the UK, there is one in Oxford that has been running for decades

bnt · 22-07-2012 04:55PM

By the sounds of it (from the PPRuNe thread I linked to), the PTC was basically operating a Ponzi scheme towards the end. They needed new students to pay in full up front so that they could pay for the training of existing students. The flow of new students dried up, understandably, and that's the end of that.

I mean, they were basically an agency, a middleman. They didn't actually provide the bulk of training: that was done in Florida, by FIT Aviation. There are claims and counter-claims about that business relationship that will surely end up in court. PTC is claiming that FIT provided poor training that took too long, while FIT is claiming that PTC were very slow in paying for the training.

falconflyer83 on PPRuNe wrote:

To sum this up :

PTC owes money to :

- FIT for 1M€
- the IAA for 400K€
- the students for an unknown amount of money

The money has "disappeared" and the company has 10M€ in debt, but the CEO has plenty of money.

There must be a black hole somewhere, absorbing any euro or dollar floating around. And if that's the case, it will be proven as soon as the Justice investigates the accounts of PTC.

ejmaztec · 22-07-2012 05:01PM

bnt wrote: »

By the sounds of it (from the PPRuNe thread I linked to), the PTC was basically operating a Ponzi scheme towards the end. They needed new students to pay in full up front so that they could pay for the training of existing students. The flow of new students dried up, understandably, and that's the end of that.

I mean, they were basically an agency, a middleman. They didn't actually provide the bulk of training: that was done in Florida, by FIT Aviation. There are claims and counter-claims about that business relationship that will surely end up in court. PTC is claiming that FIT provided poor training that took too long, while FIT is claiming that PTC were very slow in paying for the training.

No doubt all kinds of crap involving several parties will be out of the woodwork in relation to the company, because the figures in the public domain stink to high heaven. It looks to me that whatever went on, went on for a long time. There are going to be some heads rolling.

token101 · 22-07-2012 05:09PM

Paying college fees shouldn't be a gamble FFS.

eth0 · 22-07-2012 05:09PM

You order a new car from some car company abroad and before it gets delivered that company goes bankrupt.

Like totally OMG Hellooooo?!?!?

Of course you're not entitled to a refund! serves ya right for buying a car off a foreign company and not the Irish government you should be supporting in these times of trouble. Damn capitalist.

That 100k these lads spent went somewhere, and the govt should be doing their best to extract it from wherever it went. The whole pilot industry is a bit of a scam anyway, first 50k+ to do a course, then 20k+ a year "pay to work" hour-building scam on a Honduran crapheap full of chickens with the landing gear attached with bailer twine and half a wing missing only then will an airline think of taking you on.

22-07-2012 05:26PM

I feel sorry for anyone caught up in this.. Loss of big money and career delayed. But it's not the public's problem.

end of the road · 22-07-2012 05:28PM

Royal Legend wrote: »

It should not be the taxpayer, there are lotsof people who have lost employment and got f all in return,

so because they couldn't get anything nobody else can.

Royal Legend wrote: »

got off their backsides my ar5e,

oh but you did of course. the parents spent money on getting their kids on a course in the hopes of getting a good job. stupidly, but they did it. hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Royal Legend wrote: »

more like their parents tried to buy them a job.

sounds like your the tippical irish begrudger. your obviously jealous because you don't and never will have the money to (buy your kids a job)

end of the road · 22-07-2012 05:33PM

Fulton Crown wrote: »

thats life ...
no it isn't. sounds like you would put up with any old thing and use the excuse ah shur thats life, the banks and the politicians screwed up this country but ah shur thats life suck it up.

Fulton Crown wrote: »

suck it up and stop expecting the taxpayer to bail you out.

no they won't.

wendell borton · 22-07-2012 05:38PM

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Is I missin sommat here ?

These goons signed up for a private course which they hoped would gain them entry to the lucrative world of commercial aviation.

Fair enough! I have no issue with that .

Then this private course goes belly up and you have assorted mothers whinging to Govt Ministers and expecting John Q Taxpayer to pick up the tab !

Hello ?

Why in the freek would they expect that.....some "entitlement" culture there .

Thank freek the Vrad sent them packing ...good to see someone in authority with some balls refusing to let John Q be bullied.

Private course Dudes.....risk involved in these things....appreciate you were unlucky.....but hey ! thats life ...suck it up and stop expecting the taxpayer to bail you out.

In fairness commercial aviationation is not what it used to be in this age of budget airlines. Airlines are cutting back on non essential services, pilot training included.

The goverment pay for 3rd level students many who leave with nothing and fas courses that leave people even less likely to find employent so why not give some help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKQJx3L_CDQ

road_high · 22-07-2012 05:38PM

Elessar wrote: »

The big mistake these guys made was paying UP FRONT that kind of money to a company for their training.

All of the pilots I know with a few brain cells between their ears paid for their training as they went along. You DO NOT cough up that kind of money for training to any company up front, ever, for anything. Just look what can happen.

In saying that, I feel for the kids involved. That's their dreams down the toilet. But it has nothing to do with the taxpayer.

That is a very good point. Who pays upfront 100% for any course, costing up to 100k? Seems crazy.

eth0 · 22-07-2012 05:47PM

mfitzy wrote: »

That is a very good point. Who pays upfront 100% for any course, costing up to 100k? Seems crazy.

For a pilot course it isn't anything out of the ordinary I think

Nodin · 22-07-2012 07:06PM

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Is I missin sommat here ?

These goons signed up for a private course which they hoped would gain them entry to the lucrative world of commercial aviation.

Fair enough! I have no issue with that .

..............

Then why are they "goons"?

opinion guy · 22-07-2012 07:16PM

See this is what happens when you start bailing out private companies like.....I dunno banks.

Every Tom, Dick & Harry wants you to bail him out later on:rolleyes:

blindsider · 22-07-2012 07:19PM

looksee wrote: »

So instead of going on the dole, which would be an acceptable form of entitlement these families went to considerable expense to put their offspring through a course which hopefully would lead to employment.

It wasn't supposed to be a gamble, like buying stocks and shares - how many people here have government secured bank accounts? There isn't a fas course in flying planes (thank god). You have to take a chance and pay up to do the course.

Of course if they did not, then the airlines would have to say sorry, no more cheap flights to the Costa Whatsit, we don't have enough pilots. They take a chance, hope to qualify at huge expense for a very skilled job and have your life in their hands.

Money was poured into the company, but no-one was keeping an eye on what they did with it. These people bought a product from what was effectively a government sponsored firm. I don't know who should be responsible, but I do think that they should be able to finish their training.

The attitude of 'obviously they are well off so **** them' is stupid and short sighted, no-one here knows what loans were taken out, or savings raided to support them. Its not as though the place is awash with jobs, these are people who have got up off their back-sides and tried to do something for themselves. You have to look a lot closer to home for the real 'entitlement culture'.

I know EI invested in the College - is that what you mean by Govt-sponsored?

EI would have a very different opinion to you - and they would have signed contracts reflecting this.

The Govt had no duty or obligation here - PTC is a private company. EI companies have gone bust in the past and the govt has not stepped in.

I don't subscribe to the 'rich parents paying for rich kids' theory, I'm sure people are losing money they can ill-afford to lose - but i don't see the connection between the Govt and tax-payers (me included) and the trainee pilots.

Sky King · 22-07-2012 07:37PM

The rich kids notion is totally inaccurate, most trainee pilots are late 20's early 30's (engineers accounts etc etc) who scrimped, saved and borrowed heavily to fund training for the job of their dreams.

This is unfortunate but they are well within their right to ask for help. They probably wont get it anyway.

Fulton Crown · 22-07-2012 08:52PM

Nodin wrote: »

Then why are they "goons"?

Not sure if I follow your strange logic Dude ?

They were goons because they paid a huge wedge in advance to a dodgy company...which even a cursory financial check would have shown up.

I say again I have no problem with this..because what they do with their own cash is their own business..

What I have a problem with is these people and their representatives haranguing
and browbeating Govt Ministers to pony up with the cash to help them finish the course.

Why ?

Can't understand the sense of entitlement there ....like if I paid a solicitor €100k up front as a deposit on a house and he went belly up/absconded ....would the taxpayer cover my loss...I think not !.

Why would they do it in the case of the trainee pilots...explain that to me Dude. ?

the groutch · 22-07-2012 09:16PM

these are probably the same people who as teenagers were doing their bagpacking in the supermarkets to get complete strangers to fund their African holiday.

SocSocPol · 22-07-2012 09:18PM

Fulton Crown wrote: »

Not sure if I follow your strange logic Dude ?

They were goons because they paid a huge wedge in advance to a dodgy company...which even a cursory financial check would have shown up.

I say again I have no problem with this..because what they do with their own cash is their own business..

What I have a problem with is these people and their representatives haranguing
and browbeating Govt Ministers to pony up with the cash to help them finish the course.

Why ?

Can't understand the sense of entitlement there ....like if I paid a solicitor €100k up front as a deposit on a house and he went belly up/absconded ....would the taxpayer cover my loss...I think not !.

Why would they do it in the case of the trainee pilots...explain that to me Dude. ?

Your loss dude would be like covered like dude by the like dude Law Society dude like

Cash Aid for the stranded "Pilots"

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