Reasons guests may have to avoid church weddings

Foggy.nelson

pwurple wrote: »

Foggy.nelson wrote: »

Im going to a wedding next month, I'm not working at the moment and my savings are gone on general bills and other stuff. I'm expected to get a present even tho I can't afford it, I've been told money will be grand. It's my other halves family, her parents said I don't need to(being nice) other half pressuring me to get one. I'd be just to go to the afters, as I'll be standing around like a tool while the family members do there stuff , also I'm being made go to the church which is something I'm against expecting guests to do in this day of age... Weddings make people selfish if u ask me

Don't go to that wedding. Seriously. I do not know why the heck people go to events if they don't want to be there. If I can't afford to go somewhere I do not go. Simple as. And what's the issue with the ceremony? You want to skip the actual wedding part and just go for the food? Charming altogether.

I think we can all agree that both of these two things are bad manners:
1) expecting a gift at your wedding.
2) not giving a gift for a wedding you attend.

I have no want to go to a mass, if it was a ceremony if have no problem being there to see the vows and wedding stuff but excuse me for not wanting to listen to the word of god, and it's not always as simple as go or don't go, sometimes u have to go for family etc

pwurple

Foggy.nelson wrote: »

I have no want to go to a mass, if it was a ceremony if have no problem being there to see the vows and wedding stuff but excuse me for not wanting to listen to the word of god, and it's not always as simple as go or don't go, sometimes u have to go for family etc

I don't think they will be trying to convert you on the sneaky... Non-christians won't be pointed out and laughed at. Seriously, please don't go with that attitude. I would have hated someone to go to my wedding and not wanted to be there. You mention other halves so I assume you are married. Were there people at yours who you thought didn't want to be there? Do something else that day, or else start appreciating that they are accepting you as part of the family. Plenty of wifes and husbands are completely rejected by their in-laws.

See the discussion above about providing a top table or else elope for a good example of that in the making...

Foggy.nelson

pwurple wrote: »

Foggy.nelson wrote: »

I have no want to go to a mass, if it was a ceremony if have no problem being there to see the vows and wedding stuff but excuse me for not wanting to listen to the word of god, and it's not always as simple as go or don't go, sometimes u have to go for family etc

I don't think they will be trying to convert you on the sneaky... Non-christians won't be pointed out and laughed at. Seriously, please don't go with that attitude. I would have hated someone to go to my wedding and not wanted to be there. You mention other halves so I assume you are married. Were there people at yours who you thought didn't want to be there? Do something else that day, or else start appreciating that they are accepting you as part of the family. Plenty of wifes and husbands are completely rejected by their in-laws.

See the discussion above about providing a top table or else elope for a good example of that in the making...

I'll be going to the whole thing, I can't just refuse to go, I'm just not big on the wedding business. I'll be enjoying it come night fall I'm sure but I do no people directly affected by the catholic church and I've been to non religious funerals because if such, I think a note at the end of the invite should say if you feel uneasy about goin to the church etc then meet up or pictures whenever.

rainbowtrout

Foggy.nelson wrote: »

I have no want to go to a mass, if it was a ceremony if have no problem being there to see the vows and wedding stuff but excuse me for not wanting to listen to the word of god, and it's not always as simple as go or don't go, sometimes u have to go for family etc

I'm an atheist and the way I see it is that my friends/family have chosen to celebrate their wedding in a particular way. I don't see it as me participating in a mass, if anything I just tune out for the prayers etc, and just listen to the important bits. I'm not being asked to actively participate in anything religious, just attend a wedding ceremony. I'd say the same if I had a friend of another faith who chose to get married in a mosque/synagogue, I wouldn't believe in that either but would still attend out of respect for my friend.

TheTurk1972

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'm an atheist and the way I see it is that my friends/family have chosen to celebrate their wedding in a particular way. I don't see it as me participating in a mass, if anything I just tune out for the prayers etc, and just listen to the important bits. I'm not being asked to actively participate in anything religious, just attend a wedding ceremony. I'd say the same if I had a friend of another faith who chose to get married in a mosque/synagogue, I wouldn't believe in that either but would still attend out of respect for my friend.

I would be much the same. Total atheist. I'll even stand up. kneel down, bless myself or whatever because I respect the beliefs of the people i am in the church with. I'm in their domain not mine. I can't get over how some Atheists really go out of their way to be offended by other peoples beliefs.
Makes them worse than even cult members if you ask me.

Foggy.nelson

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'm an atheist and the way I see it is that my friends/family have chosen to celebrate their wedding in a particular way. I don't see it as me participating in a mass, if anything I just tune out for the prayers etc, and just listen to the important bits. I'm not being asked to actively participate in anything religious, just attend a wedding ceremony. I'd say the same if I had a friend of another faith who chose to get married in a mosque/synagogue, I wouldn't believe in that either but would still attend out of respect for my friend.

I would be much the same. Total atheist. I'll even stand up. kneel down, bless myself or whatever because I respect the beliefs of the people i am in the church with. I'm in their domain not mine. I can't get over how some Atheists really go out of their way to be offended by other peoples beliefs.
Makes them worse than even cult members if you ask me.

Im more getting at how people who have been abused by the catholic church who might not want to be in the church. And even family members etc who might not want to be there

rainbowtrout

Foggy.nelson wrote: »

Im more getting at how people who have been abused by the catholic church who might not want to be in the church. And even family members etc who might not want to be there

That's fair enough, but staying away won't change the fact that your friends/family have chosen this way to celebrate their marriage. Vegans don't stay away from weddings because beef or salmon is on the menu and it goes against their beliefs that their friends eat meat. They just go for the veggie option. Not trying to belittle what you are saying, but attending is celebrating the couple's marriage, not a show of support for the catholic church.

iguana

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That's fair enough, but staying away won't change the fact that your friends/family have chosen this way to celebrate their marriage. Vegans don't stay away from weddings because beef or salmon is on the menu and it goes against their beliefs that their friends eat meat. They just go for the veggie option. Not trying to belittle what you are saying, but attending is celebrating the couple's marriage, not a show of support for the catholic church.

I can see what he's getting at. I've been to 2 weddings where as the day went on it was very obvious that a guest (each someone from the bride's childhood) was having a reaction that could be described as a form of post traumatic stress. In both cases the guest in question was someone who was abused in that particular church and being in the building for the first time in over a decade was not something they were able to cope with despite thinking they could on the lead up to the day.

While I think people should have a church wedding if that is their preference it may be worth bearing in mind that for some people it's not as simple as 'live and let live' when it comes to being in a (particular) church. On the other hand I don't doubt that similar reactions can happen if someone is faced with a long avoided relative that they are avoiding for similar reasons. And it's not really the bride and groom's responsibility to know what secret trauma each and every guest might be carrying and magically know to avoid anything that might trigger bad memories.

iguana

Split off from other thread as it had gone off topic.

TheTurk1972

Foggy.nelson wrote: »

Im more getting at how people who have been abused by the catholic church who might not want to be in the church. And even family members etc who might not want to be there

I have been there too. I have had friends abused and family members abused by a member of the church. But I know that not all people involved in a particular religion are responsible. In fact most of them aren't.
Get over yourself. Use your head and don't be looking to be offended.

Foggy.nelson

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

Get over yourself. Use your head and don't be looking to be offended.

No one is looking to be offended, its a discussion. What do you actually mean get over it?? How am I even offended??

pwurple

Oh for goodness sake. I know people who have been abused by their own uncles or fathers. Should I ban all men from my life and my childrens, just in case?

I don't see any reason to put a note in everyones invite saying if you have a problem with stories being read to you in a building with a pointy roof, better meet for photos instead. It is the height of childishness to expect this. I have been to weddings of various faiths, and I show the appropriate respect at each of them. To do otherwise is to insult the couple.

Show some respect to the couple who are including you in something personal to them, and if you can't find it in yourself to manage that, then Don't fookin Go to any of it. Skipping the ceremony and appearing for the free food is obnoxious behaviour.

rainbowtrout

iguana wrote: »

I can see what he's getting at. I've been to 2 weddings where as the day went on it was very obvious that a guest (each someone from the bride's childhood) was having a reaction that could be described as a form of post traumatic stress. In both cases the guest in question was someone who was abused in that particular church and being in the building for the first time in over a decade was not something they were able to cope with despite thinking they could on the lead up to the day.

While I think people should have a church wedding if that is their preference it may be worth bearing in mind that for some people it's not as simple as 'live and let live' when it comes to being in a (particular) church. On the other hand I don't doubt that similar reactions can happen if someone is faced with a long avoided relative that they are avoiding for similar reasons. And it's not really the bride and groom's responsibility to know what secret trauma each and every guest might be carrying and magically know to avoid anything that might trigger bad memories.

That's quite a specific example and to be honest something that has never really crossed my mind with regard to weddings but I agree it's not the responsibility of the bride and groom to know all of these things and be able to accommodate each of their guests accordingly.

If the guest in question has had an experience which was personally traumatic but it's not something that they wish to disclose to the bride and groom then they should just give some excuse as to why they can't attend the church part. No one will be all that bothered anyway. There are always loads of people milling around at a wedding and people coming late that you don't see at the church even though they were there. On the other hand if it's a more general dislike of the catholic church where the invited guest hasn't been personally traumatised by it and it's more about protesting against the church I'd be inclined to say just go and attend to show support for the couple.

Gatica

I am not Catholic and I find the abuse suffered at the hands of religious leaders shocking.. However, I've gone to the weddings and funerals of family and friends at the Church. I'm not there or not-there to make a statement or otherwise, I'm simply showing support for the family who's grieving at a funeral and the couple when they're getting married. There's no need to take part in the ceremony at all. I sit at the back, I stand with everyone, I don't bother kneeling, I don't go up for communion, I shake hands for peace with ppl around me... I choose to do so, but I'm sure if I didn't and just sat they wouldn't be offended.
I have had no personal bad experience at the hands of the church, but if I had and didn't want to go, I'd simply not go to the ceremony, and not make a big deal about my friends choosing to marry in a church.
It's just as, if not more, selfish to expect them to forego their religious beliefs or upbringing for the sake of the atheists in their group of friends, as it is for them to expect abused people to sit through a ceremony in the church.

I'm sure if you didn't go they'd not even notice... there's already so many at the ceremony and no one's gonna remember who was or wasn't there. It's not like it's an intentional slight on their part. Yes, it generally would be a bit crass to miss the actual ceremony (the most important part of the day, in my opinion) and show up for dinner. However, as already pointed out by Iguana there are circumstances where this is understandable.

Sleepy

I find churches to be disgusting places that represent a disgusting organisation but I'll still go to them for a friends wedding. I bring my camera and occupy myself trying to get nice shots of the couple getting married which I find helps me ignore the surroundings (and I usually end up with at least 2/3 good shots to give to the couple afterwards).

krankykitty

I'm not religious and when I'm invited to a church wedding of a Catholic friend, I will go along and sit & stand with the others (however I won't kneel or otherwise get involved). I find apart from the actual wedding vows bit, the whole thing is long and boring, though if my friends are Catholic and actually believe in it, I'm happy to support them.

However, I find myself getting a bit irritated when attending the church wedding of people I know never step foot inside a church and who don't actually believe in God, the religion or indeed don't really mean the vows they're saying (bringing up kids as catholic etc). It makes the whole thing a bit "charadey" and it makes the whole experience more of a chore, for me anyway. In situations like this the ceremony is my least favourite part of the day, whereas when I'm at a ceremony that's true to the people who are getting married (be that religious or civil) I would enjoy the ceremony part.

analucija

I find ceremonies of any kind boring. I'm an atheist but I have no problem stepping in a church or any other religious building. I'll attend a wedding or a funeral of somebody who is important to me anywhere. It doesn't bother me if they are religious or not.

I find funny people finding churches disgusting, considering there are often some superb examples of art in them. I would consider not going into St. Peters basilica or Blue Mosque for example because they are religious buildings silly at best.

Sleepy

analucija - the Vatican is the most stomach churning place I've ever been. Precisely *because* it's full of so much beautiful art, precious metals and jewels.

The deity the occupants of that building claim to worship would never have allowed such an accumulation of wealth in his/her/it's name: it would have been shared amongst the poor, the meek, the needy etc. That the same bunch of deluded old men that control such vast wealth spend their time preaching to others as to how their lives should be lived whilst sitting on enough wealth to end world hunger is unforgivable (and that's without even getting into many of the crimes they've committed / covered up within those walls).

analucija

Sleepy wrote: »

analucija - the Vatican is the most stomach churning place I've ever been. Precisely *because* it's full of so much beautiful art, precious metals and jewels.

The deity the occupants of that building claim to worship would never have allowed such an accumulation of wealth in his/her/it's name: it would have been shared amongst the poor, the meek, the needy etc. That the same bunch of deluded old men that control such vast wealth spend their time preaching to others as to how their lives should be lived whilst sitting on enough wealth to end world hunger is unforgivable (and that's without even getting into many of the crimes they've committed / covered up within those walls).

And here I thought that art should be judged by the artistic value and not by the morals of the people who paid or ordered it. Is Pieta less of a masterpiece because of its subject or its location?

Sleepy

No, but it would be just as much of a masterpiece in a private or national collection were the Church to live up to the morality it preaches and sell it to feed starving children / donate to retro-viral research to undo some of the damage their stance on contraception has helped fuel in sub-saharan Africa etc.

The art is beautiful (and whilst arguably "priceless", it would find a price at auction). It's ownership by a religious organisation preaching about charity and the "meek" inheriting the earth whilst protecting paedophiles is repugnant.

Bubblefett

When my boyfriend's sister got married their aunt didn't attend because the ceremony was in the church that she got married in (she is now devoiced) and she found it too painful.

Some people won't attend services for various reasons and that's fine. But to specifically put on the invite that it's okay not to attend if you have personal reasons seems a bit silly to me.
If you don't want to go to something for good reason (be it personal or financial) fine, tell the parties involved and move on. Don't expect it to be written down

lazygal

krankykitty wrote: »

However, I find myself getting a bit irritated when attending the church wedding of people I know never step foot inside a church and who don't actually believe in God, the religion or indeed don't really mean the vows they're saying (bringing up kids as catholic etc). It makes the whole thing a bit "charadey" and it makes the whole experience more of a chore, for me anyway. In situations like this the ceremony is my least favourite part of the day, whereas when I'm at a ceremony that's true to the people who are getting married (be that religious or civil) I would enjoy the ceremony part.

This wrecks my head too, and TBH I do judge such people for having a church wedding when I know the couple hasn't attended church. I've seen this with other denominations too though, not just Catholic couples. I find it really difficult to take a ceremony like that seriously, when most of such services have nothing to do with the couple getting married and more often than not are held in the church because its a nice building or their parents would be upset to not have a church wedding.

That said, I was one of the first of my friends to have a non church wedding and at least two other couples have decided to go the same route having seen how much more personal and meaningful our ceremony was, so at least some people have a bit of integrity.

analucija

Sleepy wrote: »

No, but it would be just as much of a masterpiece in a private or national collection were the Church to live up to the morality it preaches and sell it to feed starving children / donate to retro-viral research to undo some of the damage their stance on contraception has helped fuel in sub-saharan Africa etc.

The art is beautiful (and whilst arguably "priceless", it would find a price at auction). It's ownership by a religious organisation preaching about charity and the "meek" inheriting the earth whilst protecting paedophiles is repugnant.

Again that has nothing to do with the object itself. The building or art in it is not the preaching or the actions of the organisation. It might be the medium for it but you don't label tv disgusting if you don't like the news. It is still possible to admire the skill and craftsmanship in the church without condoning the organisation.

Sleepy

I'm afraid I disagree. I can admire all the artistic merits of the contents of the building but I can't separate that from the institution.

El_Dangeroso

lazygal wrote: »

This wrecks my head too, and TBH I do judge such people for having a church wedding when I know the couple hasn't attended church. I've seen this with other denominations too though, not just Catholic couples. I find it really difficult to take a ceremony like that seriously, when most of such services have nothing to do with the couple getting married and more often than not are held in the church because its a nice building or their parents would be upset to not have a church wedding.

That said, I was one of the first of my friends to have a non church wedding and at least two other couples have decided to go the same route having seen how much more personal and meaningful our ceremony was, so at least some people have a bit of integrity.

Then you must think I'm a terrible person, both my boyfriend and I are athiests but are having a church wedding because it means a lot to my mother and given how much she has sacrificed for me it is my 'wedding gift' for her.

We're paring back the ceromony to just the wedding rites, no mass, and a family friend is the priest so it will still be very meaningful for us I hope.

lazygal

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Then you must think I'm a terrible person, both my boyfriend and I are athiests but are having a church wedding because it means a lot to my mother and given how much she has sacrificed for me it is my 'wedding gift' for her.

We're paring back the ceromony to just the wedding rites, no mass, and a family friend is the priest so it will still be very meaningful for us I hope.

I still don't get it TBH. I presume your mother had a wedding? So why does she need to have a say in yours? And you make serious promises in a Catholic wedding, even without the mass, to raise children catholic and have a marriage based on its rules, such as no artificial contraception. Why would you and your partner, as atheists, start married life by telling lies and making promises you won't keep? Are you going to perpetuate your mother's control by christening any children you might have?

As nice as it is to take your mother's feelings into account, I still cannot understand how two adults wouldn't be able to marry in a manner more suitable for their beliefs or lack thereof, and instead choose to start married life in an institute they don't believe in. I'm sure the priest is a grand fella, but how could any ceremony that's in direct conflict with people who are atheist mean anything to you?

pwurple

We are non-believers as well. A-la-carte 100%. I go to funerals, weddings, christmas mass. We didn't have a church wedding, but we did have a priest. I would be fairy annoyed if someone told me our ceremony wasn't personal or meaningful. It was.

We went for a priest partially because my husbands mum and my dad are religious, and it meant a lot to them. It was even slightly trailblazing the other direction to go that way, as my husband siblings were either married in civil ceremonies, or long term partners and children with no marriage. None of mine were married. Eyebrows were raised that we were going that way.

iguana

I've deleted the off topic postings. I made this thread for the discussion of why people may not want to attend church weddings. So many threads turn into this debate I thought it would be helpful to have a thread this debate can happen on instead of taking other threads off-topic.
If people want to discuss other religious ceremonies take it to the appropriate forums, this forum only deals with weddings and civil partnerships.

Sleepy

pwurple wrote: »

I would be fairy annoyed if someone told me our ceremony wasn't personal or meaningful.

I think the problem many of us have with this is that if you're making vows you don't have any intention of taking seriously in one breath and then making solemn ones with your next, it somewhat cheapens / diminishes the sincerity of the latter vow no matter how seriously it's being made.

Having a church wedding as a non-believer, to me, is allowing societal pressure to conform to diminish the most important part of the wedding day.

Gatica

I think no one can judge how meaningful a ceremony is to someone. Most of my friends are not regular church goers, they've all had church weddings, whether for themselves or their families. I've always enjoyed attending them even if I don't fully take part, the hour didn't really drag and it looked very pretty.
One of our friends was atheist and said it to the priest so for the part of the ceremony that says that you promise to raise the kids Catholic, she said "he does" (about her partner)
They said they'd looked into having a civil ceremony but didn't want two separate ceremonies, registrar office and some humanist one after. They wanted one wedding, one ceremony and couldn't do this on the Saturday with the HSE registrar. Unfortunately having the standard church wedding was just a lot simpler.
None of us minded. Don't think anyone in our group had any strong feelings about being inside the Church building. Some of our Asian friends thought it was really interesting to see an Irish Church wedding. No one concentrated on judging as to why they were having their ceremony there etc...

pwurple

Oh for goodness sake. I had a massive post addressing this already deleted Sleepy and Gatica, and my main point has been snipped from above.

I am personally insulted by many of the posts here, but my right to reply has been removed, so I don't know what to say.

The exact choice I made, has been called:

"charadey" and it makes the whole experience more of a chore

find it really difficult to take a ceremony like that seriously

how could any ceremony <snip> mean anything to you

it cheapens / diminishes the sincerity of the latter

This is all offensive and insulting stuff that I'm taking fairly personally, as we are talking about my wedding here. But, it's also off topic. No idea why my responses were removed, but that stuff left. Apologies iguana, I don't mean to diss the modding, but I'm feeling hard done by here.

Gatica

not entirely sure why I'm being mentioned above.
I'm pretty sure the main thing I posted about was wrt to education and that has been removed due to being off topic.

I don't think your vows are any less personal, I think you look into the eyes of the person you are marrying and you honestly say "I do" to the main part, which is you take them to be your partner in sickness and in health etc...

Don't see anything wrong with doing things to please your parents either. Wouldn't do it myself probably, but my family knows I'm stubborn and a bit selfish that way anyway. My OH isn't the church type either, but if wasn't marrying me would've probably had a church wedding. His parents, mother in particular, are proper believers, go to mass every Sunday and know everyone in the parish. It would mean a lot to them to have their kids marry in a Church and probably means a lot less to him not to marry in a Church...

iguana

pwurple wrote: »

Oh for goodness sake. I had a massive post addressing this already deleted Sleepy and Gatica, and my main point has been snipped from above.

I am personally insulted by many of the posts here, but my right to reply has been removed, so I don't know what to say.
This is all offensive and insulting stuff that I'm taking fairly personally, as we are talking about my wedding here. But, it's also off topic. No idea why my responses were removed, but that stuff left. Apologies iguana, I don't mean to diss the modding, but I'm feeling hard done by here.

The posts about education were removed as they weren't about weddings. That topic can be discussed on a lot of boards forums; Parenting, Education, Humanities, Christianity, A&A or even After Hours if you want to brave a serious discussion over there. But this isn't the right place for it to become a topic.

krankykitty

pwurple wrote: »

Oh for goodness sake. I had a massive post addressing this already deleted Sleepy and Gatica, and my main point has been snipped from above.

I am personally insulted by many of the posts here, but my right to reply has been removed, so I don't know what to say.

The exact choice I made, has been called:

"charadey" and it makes the whole experience more of a chore

find it really difficult to take a ceremony like that seriously

how could any ceremony <snip> mean anything to you

it cheapens / diminishes the sincerity of the latter

This is all offensive and insulting stuff that I'm taking fairly personally, as we are talking about my wedding here. But, it's also off topic. No idea why my responses were removed, but that stuff left. Apologies iguana, I don't mean to diss the modding, but I'm feeling hard done by here.

The topic is about reasons someone would have to avoid a church wedding. Nobody's saying you're not taking your marriage vows sincerely, but that the addition of the church, when neither you nor your partner believes, thats bringing another element into the day (that some guests may find superfluous or tedious). At the end of the day its up to you what wedding you have, but I gave my opinion as to why some guests might not enjoy it. And yes, people participating in religious ceremonies they don't believe in does perpetuate the hold the CC has over our society so there's another reason a guest might feel irritated attending one, and want to avoid.

Sorry if this all over the place, on phone..

krankykitty

I'd also be very interested in hearing what Real Catholics make of having people marry in their church who not only are not practicing Catholics but also don't actually believe in god? It actually feels a little disrespectful to me. It would be like me (not a Muslim) turning up at a mosque to get married in a muslim ceremony all the while stating a disbelief in Allah and not being a practicing Muslim? I just don't get it, but horses for courses.

Ickle Magoo

I'm an atheist and I am certainly no fan of religion in general but I see absolutely no point in refusing to attend a church wedding...surely you would be boycotting your friends big day and having absolutely no political impact on the church whatsoever which makes no sense.

There will always be some people with an issue with your chosen wedding location - I wouldn't be planning my wedding around catering for them. If they don't want to come, no skin off my nose - I wouldn't mention it on the invitation or anything else. They either want to share in your big day or they consider something else should take precedent, whether that's a prior engagement or political statement I wouldn't be losing any sleep over.

Malari

Does everyone who gets married in a church actually have a religious ceremony? I mean is it possible to rent the building for whatever ceremony you like? Just struck me as people have mentioned separating the church from the associated art.

lazygal

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'm an atheist and I am certainly no fan of religion in general but I see absolutely no point in refusing to attend a church wedding...surely you would be boycotting your friends big day and having absolutely no political impact on the church whatsoever which makes no sense.

There will always be some people with an issue with your chosen wedding location - I wouldn't be planning my wedding around catering for them. If they don't want to come, no skin off my nose - I wouldn't mention it on the invitation or anything else. They either want to share in your big day or they consider something else should take precedent, whether that's a prior engagement or political statement I wouldn't be losing any sleep over.

I wouldn't boycott the ceremony, I've never not attended a wedding ceremony of a friend if I'm invited to the whole day. But I have heard so many couples making religious vows, having religious readings and using religious buildings and celebrants to marry, despite having little or no time for church attendance, and in some cases actively mocking the pre marriage course, priest and religion, that its quite difficult to take such ceremonies seriously. Most of the couples I know who married in the past few years are not religious and in some cases have actually done count me out or don't believe in God. So why they then expect a religious ceremony to be taken seriously is a mystery, because most of them are only having such ceremonies because the church is nice, their parents couldn't countenance a non church wedding or they just didn't bother looking at another route to marry.

I've listened to a colleague of mine slag the priest who married them, moan about the premarriage course taking up a weekend and whine about the music being restricted to religious songs. I pointed out that no one's obliged to have a church wedding, there's other options to marry, and he looked at me like I had two heads. His argument was his parents wanted the big white church wedding so they just went along with it.

Ickle Magoo

I don't understand what you mean by "take seriously"? I don't view it as my place to grade the "seriousness" of my friends chosen wedding venue/ceremony - tbh if I thought that little of them I wouldn't attend their wedding. I have no idea why people have the ceremony they have, whether it's because they think the place will look good in photos, because they promised a family relative that's what they'd do or that they happen to be marrying a religious person - I only know that they have requested I be there to share in their big day, I don't see it necessary to judge beyond that.

The fact of the matter is that it's very traditional here to have a church wedding, it's the "expected" thing. We were never going to have a church wedding and some made absolutely no secret of their disapproval. I'm lucky, I come from a long line atheists and agnostics and church weddings/funerals/christenings aren't the norm in my family. While it wasn't an issue for me, I can absolutely understand that others feel pressurised or even obliged to do it that way, especially given all the other issues such as allocation of school places that a young family here can face if they snub relations with their local parish church/priest...

Sleepy

pwurple wrote: »

Oh for goodness sake. I had a massive post addressing this already deleted Sleepy and Gatica, and my main point has been snipped from above.

I am personally insulted by many of the posts here, but my right to reply has been removed, so I don't know what to say.

The exact choice I made, has been called:
This is all offensive and insulting stuff that I'm taking fairly personally, as we are talking about my wedding here. But, it's also off topic. No idea why my responses were removed, but that stuff left. Apologies iguana, I don't mean to diss the modding, but I'm feeling hard done by here.

My own comment in there isn't meant as any kind of personal insult, it's my opinion on what you're doing. If you're insulted by that, I'll apologise for that but I can't apologise for my opinion that what you're doing is cheapening your wedding vows.

If you can explain how you can square the circle of making your marriage vows "before god" when you don't believe in one or promising to raise any children that may come out of your marriage to a religion you don't believe in I'd be interested to hear that explanation. From where I'm standing, it means you lied in the same few breaths as you married your other half with and that, for me, would be a non-runner. I'd feel like I was calling the sincerity of my wedding vows into question by lying in the ceremony.

Yes, I understand the family pressure to marry in a church where the older generations still believe in religion but the very purpose of a marriage is the joining of yourself and your other half in the formation of a new family unit. If you can't stand up to the other family members over how you get married, how are you going to do it when the issue of your children getting christened / taking first communion / being confirmed gets raised? Or will you go along with that too and indoctrinate your children into a belief system that you yourself have rejected?

Malari wrote: »

Does everyone who gets married in a church actually have a religious ceremony? I mean is it possible to rent the building for whatever ceremony you like? Just struck me as people have mentioned separating the church from the associated art.

The church would never allow this, I'm not by any means suggesting it's true of pwurple but the church are well aware of the number of weddings they perform for those who have no faith in their beliefs but want the pretty building for the wedding day. They make a nice chunk of change out of the donations to the celebrant, pre-marriage course and letters of freedom fees etc. that they get to charge these couples, why would they give that up?

Malari

Sleepy wrote: »

The church would never allow this, I'm not by any means suggesting it's true of pwurple but the church are well aware of the number of weddings they perform for those who have no faith in their beliefs but want the pretty building for the wedding day. They make a nice chunk of change out of the donations to the celebrant, pre-marriage course and letters of freedom fees etc. that they get to charge these couples, why would they give that up?

Well they wouldn't be giving up on it, that's why I said rent. You'd expect to pay more if you were renting the use of a building, rather than making a donation to it.

lazygal

Malari wrote: »

Well they wouldn't be giving up on it, that's why I said rent. You'd expect to pay more if you were renting the use of a building, rather than making a donation to it.

But the church wants to make sure they keep the numbers up, which is why Catholic marriage ceremonies include a promise to raise children Catholic, a very, very valuable promise to the church as invariably people who make that promise will baptise their children, do communions/confirmations and then those children marry in a church, make the same promises and on it goes, which keeps the collection plates full and means donations to priests for certs etc keep rolling in. There's generations of donations to collect from such people, whereas if you're only using the building on a one-off basis, the church isn't getting as much profit out of you.

Sleepy

Well that, and also, to match the figures they collect so discreetly now, they'd be having to rent the churches out for around a grand a shot which might arouse some media interest...

partyguinness

We had a civil wedding far various reasons.

1. We are not religious (or hypocrites)
2. It allowed us to keep numbers to a minimum
3. We did not want costs running out of control.

Boskowski

TheTurk1972 wrote: »

I would be much the same. Total atheist. I'll even stand up. kneel down, bless myself or whatever because I respect the beliefs of the people i am in the church with. I'm in their domain not mine. I can't get over how some Atheists really go out of their way to be offended by other peoples beliefs.
Makes them worse than even cult members if you ask me.

No way would I do that. It's one thing listening but a totally different thing pretending. That's not even being respectful, I'd find that just fake or at best trying to not stand out.
What's wrong with just sitting there quiet and respectful? I'd find it actually disrespectful to put on a fake show.

Edit: btw I'm not saying what you're doing is fake I'm saying I'd feel fake. There is no rights or wrongs here. You do what you feel is right I do what I feel is right and religious people may or may not agree with either of us.

pontia

you lot would be one table to avoid at a wedding,barrel of laughs

Sleepy

pontia wrote: »

you lot would be one table to avoid at a wedding,barrel of laughs

Yeah, Catholics, great bunch of lads.

All that condemning others to burn in hell, homophobia, sexism, blood-drinking and wealth hording is great craic donthcaknow? :rolleyes:

pwurple

Sleepy wrote: »

My own comment in there isn't meant as any kind of personal insult, it's my opinion on what you're doing. If you're insulted by that, I'll apologise for that but I can't apologise for my opinion that what you're doing is cheapening your wedding vows.

If you can explain how you can square the circle of making your marriage vows "before god" when you don't believe in one or promising to raise any children that may come out of your marriage to a religion you don't believe in I'd be interested to hear that explanation. From where I'm standing, it means you lied in the same few breaths as you married your other half with and that, for me, would be a non-runner. I'd feel like I was calling the sincerity of my wedding vows into question by lying in the ceremony.

Yes, I understand the family pressure to marry in a church where the older generations still believe in religion but the very purpose of a marriage is the joining of yourself and your other half in the formation of a new family unit. If you can't stand up to the other family members over how you get married, how are you going to do it when the issue of your children getting christened / taking first communion / being confirmed gets raised? Or will you go along with that too and indoctrinate your children into a belief system that you yourself have rejected?

I think that telling someone their wedding was "cheapened" is an utterly abhorant and rude thing to say to anyone Sleepy. You have no clue what you're talking about regarding my wedding or marriage.

I didn't go to a church, pretty venues make no difference to me. I had a catholic wedding, by a priest, outdoors. I did vow to bring up my children as catholic, and I am doing so. Baptism and the rest. I have no problem doing so.

In particular I value a catholic education highly (for the multiple reasons that were deleted). It was one I had myself, and I don't consider myself undereducated.

I find no disconnect in teaching my children to be critical thinkers, and being christian. If they come to the same conclusion I did about religion that I did, then so be it. If they stick with it, then maybe they can have the comfort and solace from a faith I never had. I lost a sibling at the age of 8, and found bereavment very difficult to cope with that age, especially without a belief in a benevolent higher power.

I told no lies at my wedding.

Sleepy

Sorry if my view offends you but tbh, I'd find your notion that indoctrinating children into a religion that you don't even believe in yourself to be an abhorant one myself.

How can you find no disconnect between teaching children to be critical thinkers whilst indoctrinating them into a faith that has fought wars over their stance that their dogma must be adhered to and adherents have no business interpreting the Bible themselves (i.e. they're utterly opposed to critical thinking)?

No lies at your wedding? You swore vows in the name of something you don't believe in. Perhaps it's a lie of omission but I think you're lying to yourself if you believe that. I'm sure you'll find that offensive too but I'd rather be honest than pander to you.

analucija

Catholic religion is part of the culture, like it or not. People celebrate Christmas, St. Patrick, I know plenty of non-believers who give up something for Lent. And on similar note, dressing your children for Halloween probably doesn't mean you believe in whatever pagan tradition it's meant to celebrate.

What somebody says or how they say it isn't the most important, it's what they mean and how serious they are about each other. For that reason I really couldn't give a damn what form of ceremony somebody goes for and if they believe in every bit that is being said.

Sleepy

It's a part of Ireland's culture that's rapidly dying out as the population becomes more educated. Most consider this a good thing. Some believers are obviously dismayed at this and we may well find pockets of resistance emerging in support of the religion akin to what we see in the American bible-belt, though in such a small, educated, liberal country, I really can't see the extremities of their fundamentalism being reached here.

There are those (I'm guess you're one of them pwurple?) who fear that morality requires a deity in order for it to be taught to children. Personally I reject this and would rather explain the benefits of living in a harmonious society to my children than fall back on the old "stealing/murder/lying is wrong because God/Allah/the Flying Spaghetti Monster says so" explanation used by theists. A morality based on intelligent analysis of society is far less likely to be thrown aside than one based on fear of retribution from a deity the child will ultimately figure out is (at best) extremely unlikely to have existed outside of the minds of men.