Frequency Changes at Three Rock

Simply TV

Hi All,
Just an update to confirm the frequency changes that are happening at three rock.
excerpt from an mail shot from Saorview today.

Frequency Change at Three Rock
Viewers in the greater Dublin area receive their SAORVIEW signal from either Three Rock or Kippure. Both sites transmit on the same frequency and the receiver does not know which transmission site is being received.
RTÉNL plans to change frequency at Three Rock very shortly. There is no longer a requirement to operate this site as a Single Frequency Network (SFN) with Kippure.
On 10th July 2012, Three Rock will change from channel 54 to channel 30. Service from this site will cease at 09.00 hrs and return at 13.00 hrs. Following this frequency change, viewers who no longer receive channel 54 will have to re-scan their receivers in order to receive from channel 30. This change will coincide with the EPG change also planned for this date.
SAORVIEW plans to inform the public of this change in the lead up to 10th July through the SAORVIEW website and through public information announcements on all SAORVIEW TV services.

This should cause a fair bit of confusion to the masses..!!!:cool::cool:

Glencarraig

So would somebody about to install a group C/D aerial for Three Rock need a different aerial? Apologies for my ignorance of such matters.

Sponge Bob

Not ignorant at all, you mustn't install a group C/D as it may pick up 4G Mobile Telephone Interference apart from being 'wrong'. Best install a Group A from the Off.

The Cush

Simply TV wrote: »

excerpt from an mail shot from Saorview today.

Frequency Change at Three Rock
Viewers in the greater Dublin area receive their SAORVIEW signal from either Three Rock or Kippure. Both sites transmit on the same frequency and the receiver does not know which transmission site is being received.
RTÉNL plans to change frequency at Three Rock very shortly. There is no longer a requirement to operate this site as a Single Frequency Network (SFN) with Kippure.
On 10th July 2012, Three Rock will change from channel 54 to channel 30. Service from this site will cease at 09.00 hrs and return at 13.00 hrs. Following this frequency change, viewers who no longer receive channel 54 will have to re-scan their receivers in order to receive from channel 30. This change will coincide with the EPG change also planned for this date.
SAORVIEW plans to inform the public of this change in the lead up to 10th July through the SAORVIEW website and through public information announcements on all SAORVIEW TV services.

This should cause a fair bit of confusion to the masses..!!!:cool::cool:

Why the sudden change of frequency at Three-Rock, less than 2 weeks notice? The retune events at Mt Leinster/Clermont Carn gets almost 12 months notice. Could the change not have happened at ASO, next Oct. Any plans for an LTE trial from Three-Rock?

Glencarraig

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Not ignorant at all, you mustn't install a group C/D as it may pick up 4G Mobile Telephone Interference apart from being 'wrong'. Best install a Group A from the Off.

This is what I read from the saorview site ....Three Rock TV Transmitter,
Receiving Saorview from the Three Rock Transmitter will require a green tipped UHF Aerial also known as a Group C/D UHF Aerial. The polarity is Horizontal

I had intended mounting the aerial in my attic. would I get a better signal with green or black aerial ?

Simply TV

You would be better with the black wideband aerial. Depending on where exactly you are and what buildings or obstacles are around you will dictate whether you should mount it in the attic or not.

Sponge Bob

Saorview telling a fifth of the population to install the WRONG aerial is crazy. A group A or (less optimally) a wideband should be the advice, not a C/D. Ridiculous situation.

Does anyone know a Dublin TD who can ask Rabbitte/Saorview what the hell they are at????

Simply TV

Sponge Bob, Group A isn't the answer either as what happens if they leave Mux 2 where it is and a group A won't pick it up..A wide Band is the only answer for Dublin. A log periodical aerial is perfect and I personally have had great success with the mini Log aerial. Lovely and discreet for an outdoor aerial with great gain for the odd place where you have not ideal line of sight.

Also 4G won't be anywhere near those frequencies for a C/D aerial.

shinobi

Simply TV wrote: »

Also 4G won't be anywhere near those frequencies for a C/D aerial.

800MHz & 2.6 GHz are of the bandwidths to be used by 4G. So Type C/D Frequencies would be affected in the 800MHz range.

I wonder in the long term, given this will all Frequencies in this range be switched? Or will it only be densly populated areas where the 4G may be rolled out?
This would save a lot of cost & embarrasment later on down the line.

Sponge Bob

Simply TV wrote: »

Also 4G won't be anywhere near those frequencies for a C/D aerial.

You might think so but no. An 800mhz plus LTE uplink transmitter (eg your mobile dongle) can interfere right down to c.CH50 and certainly to CH53. Mux 2 will head down to Band A too.

http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/949731/annexes/Dynamics-of-3GPP-LTE-uplink.pdf

lucernarian

What channel would they use for Mux 2? Using C34 after switchover seems like a good plan?

I'm quite suprised this has happened. And the allocations Three Rock were given are co-channel with Mt. Leinster in Group A.

Clermont Carn's already lost half its allocation to the spectrum sell-off and the rest is all above C52 so there'll be fun and games when that comes up for negotiation.

Kippure's got Three Rock's analogue allocation and also C37. Surely that could be used and have the SFN maintained? What reasons would RTE have for determining that the SFN is no longer wanted or useful? I thought it was relatively easy for the equipment to maintain sync.

Gerry Wicklow

Sounds like it's going to be another total dogs dinner that will then take a further year to undo.:(

Sponge Bob

The dogs dinner was caused by Comreg and their short sighted 4G licence conditions with the auction due next month.

As early indications are that there will be a massive shortfall in income from the 'digital divvy' they obviously decided that a new operator would not enter the market if they thought they had to pay do aerial work on 100's of 1,000's of homes.

Anybody who paid to install a group C/D 3Rock aerial since 2009 should send the bill to Comreg for a refund. They were fully aware of Potential LTE interference since 2009 and chose to deny it.

Gerry Wicklow

So basically the planning permission style "what flood plain?" mentally is alive and well in government circles.

The Cush

Glencarraig wrote: »

This is what I read from the saorview site ....Three Rock TV Transmitter,
Receiving Saorview from the Three Rock Transmitter will require a green tipped UHF Aerial also known as a Group C/D UHF Aerial. The polarity is Horizontal

Hi Glencarraig

Can you link to where on the Saorview site they recommend a Group C/D aerial?

The reason I ask is I haven't come across where they recommend a specific group aerial for a particular transmitter, even the Saorview checker only lists the frequency and polarisation, never the aerial group.

RTÉNL did once list the aerial groups for the main transmitters, back in 2009 IIRC.

Glencarraig

I must apologise to anbody involved with Saorview regarding my earlier post, that quote was not from saorview but another information site. I have since checked the tvtrade,ie site and saw to following.

he above map shows the main Saorview Coverage & Transmitters, the colour code of the best UHF Aerial to use and their catchment area.
The table above shows the Channel Range & Polarity of each of the Transmitters in Ireland. The Final column shows the UHF group colour code for the most appropriate aerial for the transmitter. Of course it is possible to use a Wide band UHF (either the high Grid or standard 10 element contract aerial) which will work on all transmitters.

The table above shows the range of UHF TV Aerials available, their frequency range and the colour code associated with each aerial. View Coastal Transmitter Map URL="http://www.tvtrade.ie/saorview-coverage.html"]Here[/URL


I am totally confused now but wonder if I use a wideband aerial am I going to pull in a weaker signal from Kippure as well as the signal from Three Rock which would lead to a duplication of channels when downloaded.

coylemj

RTE NL did recommend a Group C/D aerial for Three Rock DTT but only up to May 2010 after which the frequency table with the aerial group recommendations was removed.

Here is the May 2010 edition, you can see the frequency table on P.7

The Cush

Glencarraig wrote: »

I am totally confused now but wonder if I use a wideband aerial am I going to pull in a weaker signal from Kippure as well as the signal from Three Rock which would lead to a duplication of channels when downloaded.

There won't be duplication of channels, only the channels from the transmitter with the best signal are stored on an auto scan/tune.

If you only require Saorview from Three-Rock go with a Group A aerial from July 10th. If you want Saorview before that date go with a wideband. My recommendation is wait and to go with a Group A.

Regarding the tables you posted from the tvtrade website, this frequency change is happening so quickly they haven't yet updated their site. There's been no public announcement/press release on the frequency change with a week and half to go.

The question is why isn't this happening at ASO, why is all this happening in a narrow two week period?

The Cush

coylemj wrote: »

RTE NL did recommend a Group C/D aerial for Three Rock DTT but only up to May 2010 after which the frequency table with the aerial group recommendations was removed.

Here is the May 2010 edition, you can see the frequency table on P.7

Yes that was the document I was referring to in my previous post, originally published Mar 2009, revised in May 2010 with the removal of Boxer and commercial DTT. The Oct 2010 (current) revision removed transmitter/frequency/aerial information, haven't seen an aerial group recommendation from RTÉNL/Saorview since.

Glencarraig

Thanks for that info Cush, I can see that this is going to cause untold confusion among the ordinary folk. I'm in no rush to get Saorview, so can wait until after July 10, I'm still a slave to UPC but will be booting them at next renewal, just want to get all the cables and stuff in place.

Sponge Bob

The Cush wrote: »

The question is why isn't this happening at ASO, why is all this happening in a narrow two week period?

4G spectrum auction closing date is the 20th of July. Something must have come up at the 'Workshop' early this month ...or by legal threat. A "Responses to Questions" document is expected this week from Comreg which may help clarify the indecent haste to clear the upper part of the UHF band in Dublin.

The UK consultation on MITCO (the Interference Mitigation entity) which will receive £180m to deal with 2.3m homes.....it kicked off 2 months back and is most instructive!

In Ireland 3Rock serves fully 28.5% of the (2006 population) or 4,234,925 persons in 1.5m households ( aka Homes) 28.5% of 1.5m households is 428k households.

Earmarking a similar Mitigation amount would be (2.3m/428k=5.37) and UK £180m / 5.37 = £33.5m or €41.5m That's €41.5m just to sort out Dublin

see > http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/949731/annexes/Deloitte.PDF

And 3Rock is in Rabbittes constituency and he doesn't want the punters all queueing at his office giving it loads and saying Jeez Wheres me telly gone Pahh??

Nor do the mobile operators have any intention of finding €41.5m cash to deal with the mess. ( see Mitco model p4) and Pat then backstopping beyond that amount.

So RTE were told to do something/anything and maybe a few squiddlys will go their way for the inconvenience/towards the deficit from Pats back pocket.

People at equal risk in rural areas and in the Clonmel TX area and possibly down as low as Ch50 in Cork on Collins can feck off of course.

Simpler to tell RTE to shag off quietly and dodge the mess....except that this is Ireland and they cannot dodge the mess because of over reliance on Mobile Broadband in rural areas.

This is one that Rabbitte hopes will go away when RTE dodge the issue....it won't.

1. He will have to explain why they need new aerials ( even in Tallaght)...cheaper than the filters but still.

2. He will have to explain why the laws of physics are different in Clonmel once LTE is launched there (on the same frequency as 3Rock before the change)

3. And he will have to explain why Labours Way was to take an anticipated €500m from 4g licences, give it to the IMF, and not give a penny back to the consumer.

I also look forward to the response to the Mitco consultation from Ofcom...due shortly after 10 July I understand.

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote: »

4G spectrum auction closing date is the 20th of July. Something must have come up at the 'Workshop' early this month ...or by legal threat. A "Responses to Questions" document is expected this week from Comreg which may help clarify the indecent haste to clear the upper part of the UHF band in Dublin.

Can't see why anything with the auction process that would force RTÉNL to abandon broadcasting spectrum they're perfectly entitled to use.

Can't see anything in the auction process that would force them to change frequencies at such short notice considering
- that part of the spectrum isn't available for mobile services
- ASO doesn't happen until the end of Oct
- new mobile licences don't start at the end of Feb next
- the process includes the possibility of a delay to ASO
- Kippure will continue to use that range of frequencies

therefore interference/mitigation issues wouldn't be a problem pre-ASO, so the change could've taken place at ASO.

As I speculated earlier in the thread is there a possibility that an LTE trial is planned from Three-Rock between now and ASO that could potentially interfere with DTT from Three-Rock in the lead up to ASO and RTÉNL/Comreg are accomodating the trail by moving frequency at short notice. Without such a change the potential interference to DTT from such a trial in the final run in to ASO in a large urban area could have a very negative public/political impact. You could of course give everyone in the coverage area an LTE filter but the logistics and cost would probably rule that out, cheaper and quicker to move frequencies.

Again as I said previously the reason for the short notice frequency change could be entirely different.

Sponge Bob

The Cush wrote: »

Again as I said previously the reason for the short notice frequency change could be entirely different.

Indeed.

We haven't been troubled with the precise rationale and neither have the 28.5% of homes in Ireland who found out they probably had the 'wrong' aerial at c.2 weeks notice.

I doubt whether widebands were ever recommended for 3Rock and they are known to be crap for Band A anyway.

Cesium Clock

RTE is ****e on sky, 9e, saorview , analogue , player, etc,

Ran by idiots just going through the motions of a European law laid down to them,

VHF RTE with no TV3 , TG4, stone age TV ,

Now we have a new service that changes before its thoughtout and launched

Complete joke

4 tv channels 1 mux me heeds in a mess it's. So complicated let's hide at 9 east

Did you take or ask for my advice ? ...?

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote: »

We haven't been troubled with the precise rationale and neither have the 28.5% of homes in Ireland who found out they probably had the 'wrong' aerial at c.2 weeks notice.

I doubt whether widebands were ever recommended for 3Rock and they are known to be crap for Band A anyway.

Less than 2 weeks notice, the public haven't been officially informed yet.

Wideband aerials were recommended by RTÉNL for Three-Rock 2-3 years ago for combined analogue/DTT reception, Group C/D for DTT only.

There may be many Group A aerials out there already for analogue RTÉ from Three-Rock which also worked with TV3 when it launched and maybe people chose not to upgrade to wideband when TG4 launched.

Late last year I installed a wideband aerial on my sister's house in Dublin and because they required the analogue channels for one TV and VCR luckily I didn't install a Group C/D for Saorview or I'd have take a trip up soon to replace the aerial to restore Saorview on their main TV, they don't subscribe to cable.

Gerry Wicklow

Cesium Clock wrote: »

....

Now we have a new service that changes before its thoughtout and launched
.....

What's worse is it HAS been launched several times but it seems no one told RTÉ.

Aepos

This is really going to screw up all the folks with early Panasonics who use the Hotel files to get things working!!

Ae

Bazzer2

Hadn't RTÉ Technical always advocated the use of a wideband aerial for Three Rock ever since the launch of TG4 (TnaG) on analogue in 1996?

MarkK

Sponge Bob wrote: »

...28.5% of homes in Ireland who found out they probably had the 'wrong' aerial at c.2 weeks notice.

You undermine your arguments with hyperbole like this.

Most in the area are on Cable or Sky, or are still on analogue so will be unaffected.
Many will also continue to get service from Kippure and will notice no difference.

Bazzer2

For anyone on UPC in Dublin, it might be interesting to keep an eye on the analogue relay of Channel Four on UHF channel 30.

Those who may currently experience co-channel interference from Kippure VHF will see that element of CCI disappear, but when the Three Rock DTT transmitter kicks in with increased power, it may create a problem.

lucernarian

MarkK wrote: »

You undermine your arguments with hyperbole like this.

Most in the area are on Cable or Sky, or are still on analogue so will be unaffected.
Many will also continue to get service from Kippure and will notice no difference.

DTT coverage from Kippure northwards will be nothing compared to VHF analogue coverage, the directional characteristics of the UHF broadcasts from Kippure and the max ERP of 63 kW compared to 500 kW will mean it will offer poor coverage northwards. I think the power is down 10dB on max power in the northwards direction.

jamescc

So I think that I have a wide band aerial would I have to get a new one now

marno21

Surely if the interference is bad on Three Rock C54, it's going to be much worse on Kippure seeing as the TX is further away and substantially weaker than analogue.

A lot of the southside will likely still get good signal on a Group C/D seeing as how high the power is in comparison with analog

MarkK

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

DTT coverage from Kippure northwards will be nothing compared to VHF analogue coverage, the directional characteristics of the UHF broadcasts from Kippure and the max ERP of 63 kW compared to 500 kW will mean it will offer poor coverage northwards. I think the power is down 10dB on max power in the northwards direction.

According to the Saorview Coverage checker, Kippure is the preferred transmitter for parts of Dublin, such as Cabra and Palmerstown, so it can't be that bad.

Ronnie Raygun

jamescc wrote: »

So I think that I have a wide band aerial would I have to get a new one now

Highly unlikely.

lucernarian

MarkK wrote: »

According to the Saorview Coverage checker, Kippure is the preferred transmitter for parts of Dublin, such as Cabra and Palmerstown, so it can't be that bad.

Maybe so, and they even show parts of Louth as being better served by Kippure but I am going on the directional plots that RTENL offered the commercial multiplex bidders when they were planning their license applications. The broadcasting power on UHF in every other direction is much lower than it is to the southwest of Kippure, roughly. Kippure is the better site to cover counties further afield from Dublin so maybe that has a significant bearing.

The Cush

This from Aertel 169 - RTÉNL Technical Information , essential engineering works at Three-Rock this week. In preparation from the frequency change next Tuesday?

Service Notification:
RTÉNL - Three Rock, Co. Dublin

Due to essential engineering works there will be some disruptions to Saorview between 10.30am and 1.30pm on Tuesday 3rd July.

This essential work will affect the Saorview service from this transmission site.

RTÉNL apologise for any inconvenience caused by this necessary work.

Service Notification:
RTÉNL - Three Rock, Co. Dublin

Due to essential engineering work, all radio, analogue TV and Saorview services will be on reduced power between 9am & 5pm on 3rd, 4th & 5th July.

RTÉNL apologise for any inconvenience caused by this necessary work.

Simply TV wrote: »

excerpt from an mail shot from Saorview today.

Frequency Change at Three Rock
...
SAORVIEW plans to inform the public of this change in the lead up to 10th July through the SAORVIEW website and through public information announcements on all SAORVIEW TV services.

Less than a week to go and no announcement.

Gyck

Oh great. :rolleyes: Based on information on the tvtrade.ie site I purchased a group CD aerial from them about a week ago.

pipkato

I'm one of those unfortunates with an early Panasonic PZ81 TV getting my signal from Three Rock. Does this change mean I'll lose access to my Saorview digital channels? If so, is there any workaround?

Thanks.

The Cush

Gyck wrote: »

Oh great. :rolleyes: Based on information on the tvtrade.ie site I purchased a group CD aerial from them about a week ago.

Register a complaint with Saorview - http://www.saorview.ie/contact/

Maybe tvtrade will do an exchange if you haven't already installed it.

Gyck

The Cush wrote: »

Register a complaint with Saorview - http://www.saorview.ie/contact/

Maybe tvtrade will do an exchange if you haven't already installed it.

I'll be getting on to them about it alright. I've already installed the aerial (in my attic) so its pristine (aside from a little blood on the reflector - those things are razor sharp!)

Sponge Bob

C/D was set in WRC 06 and by ComReg in 2007 as well.

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote: »

C/D was set in WRC 06 and by ComReg in 2007 as well.

Three-Rock was allocated 4 UHF channels in Group A and 4 in Group C/D at GE-06 so a wideband aerial should've been the recommendation for DTT.

Kippure was allocated different frequencies at GE-06 but when Comreg published its list of frequencies for DTT in 2007 the Kippure frequencies were the same as the Three-Rock allocation in Group CD to create an SFN.

Three-Rock is now moving to one of its GE-06 Group A allocations - Ch 30. The other Three-Rock allocations in Group A are 23, 26 and 34.

Peter Rhea

The coverage map has had red areas attributed to Three Rock for a good while now, so they must have had some change in mind leading up to switchover or maybe just better use of the transmitting aerials when analogue is switched off?

The Cush

Peter Rhea wrote: »

they must have had some change in mind leading up to switchover or maybe just better use of the transmitting aerials when analogue is switched off?

They just haven't bothered telling anyone about it (except maybe the trade in a recent email) with less than a week to go with people still buying the incorrect aerial as we see in Gyck's post above.

TV Trade still haven't updated their site, do they know about the change? (pm'd Digital Satellite TV aka TvTrade.ie)

We don't know the reason for the change as RTÉNL haven't given their reasons.

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

TV Trade still haven't updated their site, do they know about the change? (pm'd Digital Satellite TV aka TvTrade.ie)

Got this message back from Dave @ Tvtrade.ie. (expletives removed as requested )

Hi Cush,
Saorview haven't uttered a dicky bird at all to us about this. Only spotted it on boards yesterday. Was waiting to update the info on the website once our graphics guy was in today. The site has been updated. [snip] The first incling we got was from boards.ie, complete and utter joke. [snip]

Did they never hear of 'do it once and do it right'?

Anyway, info correct now. Putting it in as black for now with further info in the table below it. At this rate, we'll end up with a black map of Ireland on the website

Dave.

http://www.tvtrade.ie/digital-tv-aerial-selection-guide.html

The Cush

This from Aertel 169 RTÉNL Technical Information

Re-scan message

In order to accommodate essential upgrade work, viewers receiving the SAORVIEW service are asked to re-scan their televisions or set-top-boxes after 2pm on Tuesday 10th July. Instructions will be found in your TV or set-top box manual. For more information go to the SAORVIEW website or call the information helpline 1890 222 012:

After rescanning, viewers should see a slight change to the channel line up on their EPG. RTÉ News Now will swap places with 3e so that the new line-up will be:
• 3e on position 5, and
• RTÉ News Now on position 6.

This change has been made at the request of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland.

Short Term signal outage on 10th July (UHF channel 54 to UHF channel 30)
In order to undertake the necessary works viewers in the greater Dublin area that receive the SAORVIEW service from the Three Rock transmission site will, unfortunately, experience a service outage from 09:00 to 13:00 hrs on the 10th July. When the service restores at 14:00 hrs affected receivers must be re-scanned to receive SAORVIEW service.

This change coincides with the EPG change also planned for this date.

Antenna

I wonder to what extent will this change lead to a deterioration of RTE1 analogue pictures from Three Rock which is on the lower adjacent channel 29?
(considering the high power of Three Rock DTT)
Digital adjacent to analogue is much more likely to cause problems for analogue than even a significantly stronger analogue adjacent to the received analogue,
This issue would be much more noticeable in the case of old TVs (i.e. dating from the 1980s) still in use, as they tended to have less adjacent channel selectivity than more modern sets.

Also anyone still receiving BBC1 analogue from Divis in the Dublin area - that is on the upper adjacent Channel 31. Expect that to fade into the noise!

NobodyImportant

Thank God there was a wideband on sale in Sat World when i was there 2 weeks ago otherwise i would have bought a C/D aerial and be replacing it this weekend!

lucernarian

All is not necessarily lost with the group C/D aerials, they will probably still perform somewhat at Ch. 30. Hopefully most people who have installed them will notice no real difference to their Saorview reception.

Tony

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

All is not necessarily lost with the group C/D aerials, they will probably still perform somewhat at Ch. 30. Hopefully most people who have installed them will notice no real difference to their Saorview reception.

I agree