Unpopular wrestling opinions

laoch na mona

CSF wrote: »

Why waste storylines on below-par characters like the Bellas? The only 2 worth worrying about are AJ and Paige and AJ is getting the a Punk backlash.

I'm sure it's gonna be face Paige taking the title from Nikki Bella at Wrestlemania and I'm sure for that they'll up their game a bit to get her over as the top diva face for the year to come.

why not have decent women characters? it just seems like a missed opportunity to me

Stereomaniac

WWE are institutionally sexist when it comes to in-ring opportunities, I think that's pretty obvious.

Insect Overlord

Stereomaniac wrote: »

WWE are institutionally sexist when it comes to in-ring opportunities, I think that's pretty obvious.

Same for racial stereotypes/foreigners too, at least up until recently.

Stereomaniac

Until recently? It might as well be 1986 all over again with the way Alexander Rusev is portrayed.

Palo Alto

AND IT'S AWESOME.

jaykhunter

laoch na mona wrote: »

why not have decent women characters? it just seems like a missed opportunity to me

I absolutely agree. Sadly, the best you can hope for is that the women not take the constant physical and sexual abuse men hurl at them. There's two female stereotypes in WWE: The pretty girls who might show some tenacity, and the large, stern, dominant ones. And they've gotten rid of the latter.

CSF

laoch na mona wrote: »

why not have decent women characters? it just seems like a missed opportunity to me

You need to have women who are good at wrestling and acting to match them. On the main roster there is only AJ and Paige. There's no use giving these great character enhancing storylines to people who won't be able to carry the ball.

Now there may well be a recruitment issue there, and that could well be a gender thing, but from what's there, the closest thing you've got is Natty and she just doesn't seem able for the acting side of it and is suited to playing her part in tv but not PPV matches.

Will there be an influx of female wrestlers with the ring skills who could carry a PPV worthy feud? I have no idea I'm not that well up, but there is no point in giving great storylines to women who on talent alone would be released if they were the opposite gender, merely for the sake of gender equality.

You've got your Paige, and AJ and then the Bellas seem to have celebrity star quality with very little talent to match it, so you can see why WWE are sticking with them but not putting too much effort into it.

A good Mania title feud for Paige and I'm happy, because she deserves it.

Bounty Hunter

Its weird from reading the past page of the thread It seems the women are either poor in ring, have no character or both and yet these days we actually tend to have 2 Divas matches on most PPVS (Title match plus a side Divas story be it The Bellas feud, Total Divas vs non Total Divas, Fandangos dance partners nonsense, Face diva team vs Heel Diva team etc).

Don't think NXT's women are the finished article or anything but at least until they get called up to the main roster (see Emma and to a lesser extent Paige... well in as much as they dropped her Anti Diva schtick upon call up) they have characters.

rovert

I view Charlotte Flair as the Trojan horse in terms of possibly changing the main roster's portrayal of the women. If it doesn't change with her arrival then it won't ever until Vince McMahon and Kevin Dunn leave at least.

CSF

rovert wrote: »

I view Charlotte Flair as the Trojan horse in terms of possibly changing the main roster's portrayal of the women. If it doesn't change with her arrival then it won't ever until Vince McMahon and Kevin Dunn leave at least.

I don't watch NXT but I've looked at clips and she looks good.

The problem though if AJ leaves is you're actually not increasing your talent pool to work with at all. You can build it up to a big PPV match with Paige and that'll be great, and the Bellas might add a bit of TV time along the way, but then there's just nowhere to go.

The only way things are gonna start to change is when you have a batch of a few people come through at once, who people both want to watch in matches at PPVs and people who we want to watch their feuds develop every week on Raw.

It's similar enough to the tag team division where even if a great one comes along, there isn't much to do with them, except the standard of matches from the tag division is significantly higher at the moment.

rovert

You should really watch NXT in general, CSF if you can.

Charlotte vs Natayla from NXT Arrival is a good few people's Match on of Year online. It really resonated with people.

CSF

rovert wrote: »

You should really watch NXT in general, CSF if you can.

Charlotte vs Natayla from NXT Arrival is a good few people's Match on of Year online. It really resonated with people.

Tbh I don't even watch Smackdown very often. Wrestling is a distant 2nd to football for me so generally my commitment to it is limited to Raw on a Tuesday morning and PPVs on a Monday morning. Smackdown on a Friday only if I've my younger brother staying over.

Natalya is an awkward one. Good wrestler but she just has no acting skills whatsoever. You couldn't put her in the title picture. Has there been a diva before with a manager? One that wasn't a total pisstake anyway.

Scavenger XIII

CSF wrote: »

Has there been a diva before with a manager?

Nattie with Tyson as her manager-but-not-really would be amazing.

Don't even acknowledge it, just have him always steal the spotlight and run his mouth - fits right it with his current shtick.

Though you would eventually have to have her boss him back or it wouldn't work long-term I guess.

DM_7

AJ is not a game changer like Charlotte could be. AJ is genuinely entertaining in her acting and can have a decent match but she does not come across as a legit athlete or fighter.

Charlotte has that ability and if WWE were ever interested in using Divas as more than Divas, using them as wrestlers she could be the one to make it work. Put her in with Paige in a real feud that is booked like two people who want to fight each other and beat each other it would be great.

Its not a new thing for WWE to have women of that ability or presence but maybe the flair name is something that will encourage them to be more 'real'.

As seen in UFC an interest in women fighting exists in sports but its probably not something Vince wants.

rovert

DM_7 wrote: »

As seen in UFC an interest in women fighting exists in sports but its probably not something Vince wants.

That's why I am citing Nattie-Charlotte. As it was so sports based. The build up was like a Rhonda Rousey UFC Countdown Special. Motives and consequences were established and then after their match NXT explored the fallout with the winner and the loser.

jaykhunter

rovert wrote: »

I view Charlotte Flair as the Trojan horse in terms of possibly changing the main roster's portrayal of the women. If it doesn't change with her arrival then it won't ever until Vince McMahon and Kevin Dunn leave at least.

Both excellent points, especially with Vince & Dunn. Hope for women being portrayed with an ounce of respect on mainstream television rests with Aitch and Steph.

rovert

jaykhunter wrote: »

Both excellent points, especially with Vince & Dunn. Hope for women being portrayed with an ounce of respect on mainstream television rests with Aitch and Steph.

Steph by most accounts is her father's daughter in terms of her philosophy on Wrestling. I've never remembered hearing any disagreement between Steph and Vince. When Stephanie was Head of Creative she just carried out Vince's vision seemngly.

Charlotte is going be interesting on the main roster if gets called up in the next few months. Her reputation backstage in NXT is someone scared of their own shadow. She is riddled with self doubt and a lack of confidence. She's far from the entitled second/third generation Wrestler type. She takes criticism really to heart too. For example after her match that airs this week on NXT TV with a non-contracted indie Wrestler Mia Yim, someone who went out to dinner Charlotte her after the match JOKED that she gave nothing Yim in the match. Charlotte really got up upset at that comment. Essentially she didn't have the maturity as a worker or politically to handle a cross purposes situation of NXT officials wanting her to dominantly beat Yim ahead of her NXT Special match with Sasha Banks and while herself and others wanting Yim to shine enough in the match to get a NXT contract.

In short I don't think she has the wherewithal (yet) to cope with main roster politics and the pressure of live TV. I envision her flopping initially like Paige did. That's all before I mention my issues with her selling and offence.

Stereomaniac

I would like to see A.J kept with the championship as long as possible (I know she lost it to Brie at Survivor Series). Until someone decent comes along to take the championship, she's the real deal, as far as the women's division is concerned. I know I have kind of razzed on her in the Becky Lynch thread, but I think Sasha Banks could be good when she comes up, as the kind of character who looks at all of the other women and just points out all of their faults. I can remember hearing about one disagreement between Stephanie and Vince. Who could forget the proposed angle where he impregnated her? That would have been a sight to behold had it played out on television. I dream of a parallel universe where all of these angles that never got going are being played out ad infinitum.

rovert

Stereomaniac wrote: »

I would like to see A.J kept with the championship as long as possible (I know she lost it to Brie at Survivor Series). Until someone decent comes along to take the championship, she's the real deal, as far as the women's division is concerned. I know I have kind of razzed on her in the Becky Lynch thread, but I think Sasha Banks could be good when she comes up, as the kind of character who looks at all of the other women and just points out all of their faults. I can remember hearing about one disagreement between Stephanie and Vince. Who could forget the proposed angle where he impregnated her? That would have been a sight to behold had it played out on television. I dream of a parallel universe where all of these angles that never got going are being played out ad infinitum.

That's a fair enough cop on Steph and Vince but in fairness I was thinking/talking about them disagreeing on things other than them.

I am rehashing what I have said in the past but Sasha is WAY better than Charlotte but Charlotte due to her surname and WWE's promotional push Charlotte gets the buzz. What I have never really mentioned publicly is that Sasha and Charlotte are the real life Bret and Shawn of NXT. All very secondary school. But they were best friends until the time of NXT Arrival when they had a massive falling out. The (mildly dated) picture below represents the divide in the NXT women's locker room Charlotte, Alexa and Dana Brooke as one group & then Sasha's crew - most of the rest of the locker room. However don't take it too literally there's a lot of intermingling between the two groups still. But the BFFs fizzled out and broke up for a reason. Also I first heard the NXT R Evolution Women's match was going to be Banks vs Charlotte vs Lynch vs Bayley as Sasha and Charlotte didn't really want to work together as relations were so poor. They still kind of don't hence the lack of them interacting on NXT TV in the build to their match or trading banter on social media.

CSF

DM_7 wrote: »

AJ is not a game changer like Charlotte could be. AJ is genuinely entertaining in her acting and can have a decent match but she does not come across as a legit athlete or fighter.

Charlotte has that ability and if WWE were ever interested in using Divas as more than Divas, using them as wrestlers she could be the one to make it work. Put her in with Paige in a real feud that is booked like two people who want to fight each other and beat each other it would be great.

Its not a new thing for WWE to have women of that ability or presence but maybe the flair name is something that will encourage them to be more 'real'.

As seen in UFC an interest in women fighting exists in sports but its probably not something Vince wants.

Yeah you could have a great feud there, but unfortunately then when they're done feuding, they both have to go do something else and its just not out there for them. Its why the divas division can only be concentrated on for a few months a year. I thought AJ and Paige was good, but then there is nothing else entertaining for them to do, other than feud with the ****ty Bellas. You need 5 or 6 people that people will want to watch in a PPV match before you have a division really worth devoting time into.

That isn't there at the moment so it makes 100% sense to concentrate on the men where there is a premium of talent, the likes of which haven't been seen since the Attitude Era IMO, with the in ring quality actually being much better.

Should a Dolph Ziggler, a Sandow or a Luke Harper lose their spot on a PPV to Cameron, Eva Marie or Alicia Fox because of a perceived need for gender equality on the card? Hell no.

CastorTroy

rovert wrote: »

NXT Divas pic

Is that THE Blue Pants or just someone wearing blue pants?

Stereomaniac

rovert wrote: »

That's a fair enough cop on Steph and Vince but in fairness I was thinking/talking about them disagreeing on things other than them.

I am rehashing what I have said in the past but Sasha is WAY better than Charlotte but Charlotte due to her surname and WWE's promotional push Charlotte gets the buzz. What I have never really mentioned publicly is that Sasha and Charlotte are the real life Bret and Shawn of NXT. All very secondary school. But they were best friends until the time of NXT Arrival when they had a massive falling out. The (mildly dated) picture below represents the divide in the NXT women's locker room Charlotte, Alexa and Dana Brooke as one group & then Sasha's crew - most of the rest of the locker room. However don't take it too literally there's a lot of intermingling between the two groups still. But the BFFs fizzled out and broke up for a reason. Also I first heard the NXT R Evolution Women's match was going to be Banks vs Charlotte vs Lynch vs Bayley as Sasha and Charlotte didn't really want to work together as relations were so poor. They still kind of don't hence the lack of them interacting on NXT TV in the build to their match or trading banter on social media.

Shawn and Bret were the real life Shawn and Bret. :P But I know what you mean.

Vision of Disorder

Just a few things on divas:

1) The Bellas, while still hardly stellar (or any better than average), have improved immeasurably in the ring. Clever enough to cosy up to two of the top men in the company too of course.

2) I find AJ one of the least convincing actresses I've ever seen.

3) There are people in the Diva division that more could be done with. Their ability is almost irrelevant as long as they're booked in cheesy 30 second segments and basic 2 minute matches though.

JP Liz V1

Alicia and Natalya should be used more and given a reign of the Diva title

CSF

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Alicia and Natalya should be used more and given a reign of the Diva title

Why? They've no personality to work with. Their male equivalent which ironically for Natalya may be her husband, couldn't even dream of a title run

DM_7

CSF wrote: »

Yeah you could have a great feud there, but unfortunately then when they're done feuding, they both have to go do something else and its just not out there for them. Its why the divas division can only be concentrated on for a few months a year. I thought AJ and Paige was good, but then there is nothing else entertaining for them to do, other than feud with the ****ty Bellas. You need 5 or 6 people that people will want to watch in a PPV match before you have a division really worth devoting time into.

That isn't there at the moment so it makes 100% sense to concentrate on the men where there is a premium of talent, the likes of which haven't been seen since the Attitude Era IMO, with the in ring quality actually being much better.

Should a Dolph Ziggler, a Sandow or a Luke Harper lose their spot on a PPV to Cameron, Eva Marie or Alicia Fox because of a perceived need for gender equality on the card? Hell no.

Gender equality doesn't come into it for me. Talent and opportunity do.

Yes a Sandow or Harper should lose a spot if the talent exists in the divas division to make it happen. Its a non issue in the sense that the divas tend to have two spots that could be used better anyway.

The value in Divas made look like athletes would be that they could have a real feud that is made to look important and as Rovert mentioned, has consequences.

You are right, without a pool of talent it can't happen even, if a will existed. I have a hunch that the girls they have are likely to be much better than we currently perceive because of how WWE use and portray them. Look at Gail Kim as an example of someone who can go in the ring but you would never think it based on her time in WWE.

JP Liz V1

CSF wrote: »

Why? They've no personality to work with. Their male equivalent which ironically for Natalya may be her husband, couldn't even dream of a title run

And the Bellas have personality

CSF

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

And the Bellas have personality

Nikki does. She plays her role well enough. Granted, because it seems like it might be her actual personality. Brie on the other hand, no.

Stereomaniac

I find Brie to be far more enjoyable to watch, but I find that I can view Divas as being "real" sometimes.

Moneymaker

The Bella's have been fine recently for me personally.

It's when they were doing 10 minute+ segments that it was real train wreck TV.

At least they realised how badly they bombed and changed things up.

Nikki is a good heel imo.