Atheist Alexander Aan jailed today in Indonesia

funky penguin

bluewolf wrote: »

is this the crazy irish muslim convert who was in the paper? on a one man crusade saying "let's all give islam a go"?

Can we still have Christmas?

Dades

funky penguin wrote: »

Can we still have Christmas?

I don't see why not. What does Santa's birthday have to do with religion?

bluewolf wrote:

is this the crazy irish muslim convert who was in the paper? on a one man crusade saying "let's all give islam a go"?

The letter discussed here...

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I don't believe there is anything in Irish law which prevents use of Sharia law where all parties wish to adhere to it and where it does not breach Irish law.

An excellent point.

Muslims can do whatever they want as long as they adhere to Irish law.

@ Irish Islamic Vanguards, you're not suggesting the law be changed or not applied to certain "communities", are you? It's bad enough we have one religion in this country that thinks the law doesn't apply to it.

robindch

BeerSteakBirds wrote: »

[...] disgusting people like you [...]

Cut out the personal comments please.

Irish Islamic Vanguards

BeerSteakBirds wrote: »

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

Hold on a second - Indonesia is a predominantly Muslim country, with Islamic principles firmly tied into its constitution. The gentleman in question Alexander Aan carried out an act that is prohibited by law in that land - he did what he did knowing the risks and now should rightly take his punishment, he's fortunate its so lenient! Mr Nugent and others should realize that their liberal approach to things sacred is by no means the norm, they are a minuscule radical fringe movement in global terms and should be treated as such. That they think they can change laws in other countries because they find them offensive is laughable

Someone should have explained the concept of a country, it's culture and it's sovereign laws and the consequences of breaking those laws to disgusting people like you who wished to subvert the laws of Denmark over some cartoons of Mohammed causing murder, arson and vandalism in the name of religion. The people of Denmark are too lenient.

I think you're forgetting one thing, no Muslim country makes the boast of liberal equality like you do - so obviously they cannot be held accountable in the same way.

Irish Islamic Vanguards

Dades wrote: »

funky penguin wrote: »

Can we still have Christmas?

I don't see why not. What does Santa's birthday have to do with religion?

bluewolf wrote:

is this the crazy irish muslim convert who was in the paper? on a one man crusade saying "let's all give islam a go"?

The letter discussed here...

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I don't believe there is anything in Irish law which prevents use of Sharia law where all parties wish to adhere to it and where it does not breach Irish law.

An excellent point.

Muslims can do whatever they want as long as they adhere to Irish law.

@ Irish Islamic Vanguards, you're not suggesting the law be changed or not applied to certain "communities", are you? It's bad enough we have one religion in this country that thinks the law doesn't apply to it.

Muslims can do whatever they want, so long as they follow Irish law - therein lies the caveat. Irish law is based on principles that are often at odds with Islam so there is a clear disconnect with your statement of freedom and reality on the ground. Given that Ireland is now a diverse society, amendments must be made to meet the needs and convictions of its Muslim minority.

oldrnwisr

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

Given that Ireland is now a diverse society, amendments must be made to meet the needs and convictions of its Muslim minority.

Amendments such as?

MagicMarker

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Amendments such as?

Stoning women? The death penalty for homosexuality? You know, the usual stuff.

coffee_cake

MagicMarker wrote: »

Stoning women? The death penalty for homosexuality? You know, the usual stuff.

and for apostasy

Irish Islamic Vanguards

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Amendments such as?

That of course would be a community decision, not that of an individual. But off hand I should imagine sharia compliant contracts, marriage and social affairs would be a start toward the inclusiveness that Muslims deserve. Remember, we are asking for no more or less than the constitution offers - the right to practice our religion in all spheres unimpeded.

Sarky

Which doesn't work when aspects of that religion contravene basic human rights. but you knew that already. As long as it's within Irish law, you can do whatever you like. Those are the rules. If you don't like that, you can try to change the law, or you can find a country more suitable to your sensitivities.

Rev Hellfire

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

That of course would be a community decision, not that of an individual. But off hand I should imagine sharia compliant contracts, marriage and social affairs would be a start toward the inclusiveness that Muslims deserve. Remember, we are asking for no more or less than the constitution offers - the right to practice our religion in all spheres unimpeded.

As long as your contracts respect Irish law you are free to do as you wish, this holds true for all other religion and groups.

robindch

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

Remember, we are asking for no more or less than the constitution offers - the right to practice our religion in all spheres unimpeded.

Well, my religion requires me to spike the drinks of every person I see regardless of age, to force all kids I meet to eat rashers and to throw stones at men who wear religious clothing or have beards.

Do you support me in my right to practice my religion in all spheres unimpeded?

coffee_cake

complaining that the law is a problem while in the same breath referring to the constitution

Irish Islamic Vanguards

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

As long as your contracts respect Irish law you are free to do as you wish, this holds true for all other religion and groups.

I guess what is being requested here is that you observe Irish law in dealing with Muslims. Article 44 clearly allows for the free practice of religion in the public sphere, however the application of Irish law impinges on that right in so many different ways.

Irish Islamic Vanguards

robindch wrote: »

Well, my religion requires me to spike the drinks of every person I see regardless of age, to force all kids I meet to eat rashers and to throw stones at men who wear religious clothing or have beards.

Do you support me in my right to practice my religion in all spheres unimpeded?

Yawn

oldrnwisr

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

That of course would be a community decision, not that of an individual. But off hand I should imagine sharia compliant contracts, marriage and social affairs would be a start toward the inclusiveness that Muslims deserve. Remember, we are asking for no more or less than the constitution offers - the right to practice our religion in all spheres unimpeded.

That's a pretty ambiguous answer. Can you be more specific?

What is it about the current legislative environment which needs to be changed regarding the issues above.

You are already guaranteed by the constitution the freedom of religion. What consitutional amendments are you suggesting?

You know it's really strange that you're talking about inclusiveness for Muslims in society while demanding that the law treats you differently.

Sarky

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

Yawn

That's not a valid response to a yes or no question. Why so afraid of answering?

coffee_cake

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

Muslims can do whatever they want, so long as they follow Irish law - therein lies the caveat. Irish law is based on principles that are often at odds with Islam so there is a clear disconnect with your statement of freedom and reality on the ground. Given that Ireland is now a diverse society, amendments must be made to meet the needs and convictions of its Muslim minority.

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

Yawn

if that's your attitude after all your demands, yawn to them too

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

essentially silencing dissenting opinion

indeed

oldrnwisr

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

I guess what is being requested here is that you observe Irish law in dealing with Muslims. Article 44 clearly allows for the free practice of religion in the public sphere, however the application of Irish law impinges on that right in so many different ways.

OK, two things.

To repeat my previous post can you specify how current Irish law impinges on your rights.

Secondly, currently Irish law and the law of most secular countries is designed such that all religious groups must accede to it equally. If you're suggesting that allowances be made for your religion then other religions must be granted similar allowances. Now let us suppose that two religions have two diamterically opposed requirements for changes to the law. To whom should the law bend?

Dades

Speaker as a secularist, I can think of no worse reason to change the laws of our country then to pander to religious groups.

Furthermore - and no disrespect to you personally, IIV - given that Islam is completely at odds with an equal, secular society I'm hard pushed to think of a worse religion to pander to.

I'm not really sure what you hope to achieve posting here, tbh. You're unlikely to find a more vehement opposition to what you suggest anywhere on Boards - with the exception of After Hours (I wouldn't go there!).

robindch

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

robindch wrote: »

Well, my religion requires me to spike the drinks of every person I see regardless of age, to force all kids I meet to eat rashers and to throw stones at men who wear religious clothing or have beards. Do you support me in my right to practice my religion in all spheres unimpeded?

Yawn

Would you like to answer the question, or would you prefer to admit, by default if you don't reply, that your claim that "the right to practice [...] religion in all spheres unimpeded" is preposterous?

Serves him right trying to push his non beliefs down people's throats.

Since all religions are based on false gods, no laws should take religion into consideration except to ensure people have the right to worship their false gods.
I guess i better not head to Indonesia anytime soon!

Rev Hellfire

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

I guess what is being requested here is that you observe Irish law in dealing with Muslims. Article 44 clearly allows for the free practice of religion in the public sphere, however the application of Irish law impinges on that right in so many different ways.

Absolutely, but each article in the constitution does not exist separately but rather as a complementary whole. Hence article 44 does not provide religion with a trump card but one which is tempered within the bounds of Irish law and constitution as a whole.

For example whilst the death penalty may be demanded by a religion exercising article 44 it is prohibited by the 21st amendment.

Irish Islamic Vanguards

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

That of course would be a community decision, not that of an individual. But off hand I should imagine sharia compliant contracts, marriage and social affairs would be a start toward the inclusiveness that Muslims deserve. Remember, we are asking for no more or less than the constitution offers - the right to practice our religion in all spheres unimpeded.

That's a pretty ambiguous answer. Can you be more specific?

What is it about the current legislative environment which needs to be changed regarding the issues above.

You are already guaranteed by the constitution the freedom of religion. What consitutional amendments are you suggesting?

You know it's really strange that you're talking about inclusiveness for Muslims in society while demanding that the law treats you differently.

Irish law and society already treats us differently by not making provision for religious conviction in the public sphere. The fact that Muslims must adhere to laws that are religiously at odds with belief is in fact a breach of the constitutional commitment to respect and religious freedom. I'd like to see changes and perhaps more autonomy with regard to the application of sharia within our community. Again, no more or less than the constitution affords us.

oldrnwisr

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

Irish law and society already treats us differently by not making provision for religious conviction in the public sphere. The fact that Muslims must adhere to laws that are religiously at odds with belief is in fact a breach of the constitutional commitment to respect and religious freedom. I'd like to see changes and perhaps more autonomy with regard to the application of sharia within our community. Again, no more or less than the constitution affords us.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear with my previous posts. Allow me to repeat the question.

What laws in this country are impinging on your religious beliefs and in what way?

Specifics please.

robindch

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

The fact that Muslims must adhere to laws that are religiously at odds with belief is in fact a breach of the constitutional commitment to respect and religious freedom.

Would you like to answer the question I've asked twice above?

Or would you prefer to admit defeat by not answering?

Galvasean

Sarky wrote: »

That's not a valid response to a yes or no question. Why so afraid of answering?

It's quite obvious why he (and many other Muslims when put under the same spotlight) are reluctant to answer; because if they were to answer truthfully and unambiguously the barbarism of their religion would be exposed and no right thinking member of a civilized society would support their views.

Dades wrote: »

I'm not really sure what you hope to achieve posting here, tbh. You're unlikely to find a more vehement opposition to what you suggest anywhere on Boards - with the exception of After Hours (I wouldn't go there!).

On the contrary, I would strongly recommend a visit to After Hours to see how the Irish laypeople respond to such motives (not just us snoot atheists in our ivory towers). While he's at it I would also recommend a trip to the politics forum as there are plenty of people there with great knowledge of the Irish law system who I'm sure could offer interesting insights on his position.

Irish Islamic Vanguards

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

That of course would be a community decision, not that of an individual. But off hand I should imagine sharia compliant contracts, marriage and social affairs would be a start toward the inclusiveness that Muslims deserve. Remember, we are asking for no more or less than the constitution offers - the right to practice our religion in all spheres unimpeded.

That's a pretty ambiguous answer. Can you be more specific?

What is it about the current legislative environment which needs to be changed regarding the issues above.

You are already guaranteed by the constitution the freedom of religion. What consitutional amendments are you suggesting?

You know it's really strange that you're talking about inclusiveness for Muslims in society while demanding that the law treats you differently.

I apologize for the ambiguity but as I have stated, it is a community NOT an individual concern. However, I would like to see changes to marital laws, employment laws etc. if not in wider society then certainly within our own community. I do not want Irish law telling me that I cannot have 4 wives but can have as many illegitimate partners as I want.

Sarky

How many illegitimate partners do you want? And who's forcing you to have them?