Atheist Alexander Aan jailed today in Indonesia

Michael Nugent

Indonesian civil servant Alexander Aan was jailed today for sharing material on Facebook about the Prophet Mohammad.

Please contact the Indonesian embassy demanding his immediate release, and ask the Irish Government to urgently raise the issue with the Indonesian authorities.
http://atheistalliance.org/media/website/indonesian_contact.pdf

In Ireland, Senator Ivana Bacik and Senator Jillian Von Turnhout have raised Aan’s case in the Seanad in February, and called on the Tanaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs Eamon Gilmore to raise the issue with the Indonesian authorities.

Cases like this also show the urgency of Ireland repealing our own new blasphemy law. Islamic states led by Pakistan have praised the new Irish law at the United Nations. And when the Indonesian blasphemy law was constitutionally challenged in 2010, the existence of the new Irish blasphemy law was cited in its support.

Alexander Aan is a 32-year-old Indonesian civil servant who started an atheist group on Facebook on which he published articles about Mohammad and questioned the existence of God. He was beaten up by his work colleagues then arrested for blasphemy. He was today jailed for two and a half years and fined Rp 100m (about $10,000).

Aan was originally charged with blasphemy and persuading others to embrace atheism, but was instead convicted under the Electronic Information and Transactions Law of deliberately spreading information inciting religious hatred and animosity.

This shows the dangers of mixing the ideas of blasphemy and incitement to religious hatred, as prosectors can easily interchange one with the other. The law should protect people, not ideas. And it should protect people from actual harm, but not from being offended.

We have consistently highlighted this case as part of our overall campaign to repeal blasphemy laws, including in this talk at the European Atheist Convention in Cologne in Germany last month, on the topic ‘Why we must combat blasphemy laws’.

christmas2012

I hear thats getting off lightly considering what they do to each other over there on a casual basis..

Hope he gets justice the poor guy..Sounds terrible what happened..

recedite

Indonesian consul; Mr Ray Sison
e-mail; indonesianconsul@ireland.com

MagicMarker

Anyone want to do up a draft template? I'm no wordsmith...

Sarky

Sent. That a country could laud Ireland's blasphemy law as anything other than f*cking retarded is just sad. Actually implementing and enforcing it to arrest people? Bloody hell, I don't have the words to describe how disgusting that is.

dlofnep

Notable mention too Hazma Kashgari in Saudi Arabia. Highlight two for the price of one.

Beruthiel

I have dropped Mr. Sison a heart tugging e-mail and expect to hear that Mr. Aan will be out of jail by the end of the day.

Rev Hellfire

Do people really expect email campaigns to have any effect?

nozzferrahhtoo

Hard to say really. Perhaps not. Perhaps. The only thing I can say with at least some notable degree of certainty is that doing absolutely nothing likely will have no effect.

Beruthiel

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Do people really expect email campaigns to have any effect?

No. Not often.
But sometimes, on a rare occasion they do.

recedite

Its not so much the eloquence of the e-mail, more the volume of mail representing an international support.
The first such campaign I ever got involved in was when I sent some postcards (before e-mail) to the Burmese military junta in support of Aung San Suu Kyi. The postcards were being handed out to people by Amnesty International. I'm pretty sure the only reason she's alive today is because people from outside that country took an interest in the case and the injustice there. Looking forward to seeing Bono present her with an Amnesty Int. award this week in Dublin.

sbsquarepants

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Cases like this also show the urgency of Ireland repealing our own new blasphemy law. Islamic states led by Pakistan have praised the new Irish law at the United Nations. And when the Indonesian blasphemy law was constitutionally challenged in 2010, the existence of the new Irish blasphemy law was cited in its support.

How embarrasing is that!
It's enough to make you want to crawl under a rock somewhere.

The whole idea of religious laws is a bit blasphemous in itself i think - is the very act of passing a law forbidding blasphemy, not akin to suggesting that <insert your gods name here> isn't all powerfull enough to deal with dissenters himself? Isn't that blasphemy? Retards!!

Michael Nugent

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Do people really expect email campaigns to have any effect?

Not on their own, but there have been cases of international pressure generally helping to have people released in cases like this, and email campaigns are one part of that wider international pressure.

As an aside, international pressure on Ireland is also helpful in the campaign to have our blasphemy law repealed. Irish politicians are used to brazening out nonsensical positions at home, but don't like having to defend the indefensible when they are working with their international colleagues.

Michael Nugent

sbsquarepants wrote: »

How embarrasing is that!
It's enough to make you want to crawl under a rock somewhere.

It's even worse than it sounds.

The Islamic states at the United Nations had for years been trying to have defamation of religion made a crime internationally.

When Ireland passed our new blasphemy law, the Islamic states started to incorporate the definition of blasphemy that was used in our law as what they wanted implemented internationally.

International pressure has since caused the Islamic states to start backing away from the defamation of religion tactic, but they are now re-inventing it in the guise of incitement to hatred of religion instead of defamation of religion.

Lucy8080

incitement to hatred of religion?

where did they get that terminology from michael?

biko

Muslims are the most easily offended "race" and have the harshest laws against free speech against religion.
A bad mix.


Just google "court blasphemy" and 99% hits will be from Muslim countries.

SeanW

Multicultual Lefty wrote:

But, but, but, Islam is the religion of peace! Who is to say that our way is better than theirs?

:rolleyes:

Just thought I'd get that argument out of the way!

qrrgprgua

Its important that People have a right to voice their beliefs (be them pro or contra religion)
This is a major violation of basic human rights.

But as usual muslim fundamentalism never sees faith for what it is.

Sarky

Typical atheist response :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Bacon and Cabbage

Did they just pick the first guy in the phonebook or what?

Irish Islamic Vanguards

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Indonesian civil servant Alexander Aan was jailed today for sharing material on Facebook about the Prophet Mohammad.

Please contact the Indonesian embassy demanding his immediate release, and ask the Irish Government to urgently raise the issue with the Indonesian authorities.
http://atheistalliance.org/media/website/indonesian_contact.pdf

In Ireland, Senator Ivana Bacik and Senator Jillian Von Turnhout have raised Aan’s case in the Seanad in February, and called on the Tanaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs Eamon Gilmore to raise the issue with the Indonesian authorities.

Cases like this also show the urgency of Ireland repealing our own new blasphemy law. Islamic states led by Pakistan have praised the new Irish law at the United Nations. And when the Indonesian blasphemy law was constitutionally challenged in 2010, the existence of the new Irish blasphemy law was cited in its support.

Alexander Aan is a 32-year-old Indonesian civil servant who started an atheist group on Facebook on which he published articles about Mohammad and questioned the existence of God. He was beaten up by his work colleagues then arrested for blasphemy. He was today jailed for two and a half years and fined Rp 100m (about $10,000).

Aan was originally charged with blasphemy and persuading others to embrace atheism, but was instead convicted under the Electronic Information and Transactions Law of deliberately spreading information inciting religious hatred and animosity.

This shows the dangers of mixing the ideas of blasphemy and incitement to religious hatred, as prosectors can easily interchange one with the other. The law should protect people, not ideas. And it should protect people from actual harm, but not from being offended.

We have consistently highlighted this case as part of our overall campaign to repeal blasphemy laws, including in this talk at the European Atheist Convention in Cologne in Germany last month, on the topic ‘Why we must combat blasphemy laws’.

Hold on a second - Indonesia is a predominantly Muslim country, with Islamic principles firmly tied into its constitution. The gentleman in question Alexander Aan carried out an act that is prohibited by law in that land - he did what he did knowing the risks and now should rightly take his punishment, he's fortunate its so lenient! Mr Nugent and others should realize that their liberal approach to things sacred is by no means the norm, they are a minuscule radical fringe movement in global terms and should be treated as such. That they think they can change laws in other countries because they find them offensive is laughable

Galvasean

Can't tell if troll or Poe...

Irish Islamic Vanguards

Dear me, disagreement is met by the banal troll label - grow up! The reality, despite the claims of 1st year college students, is that religion - in particular Islam - is on the rise. Ireland now boasts Islam as the fastest growing religion, a fact that the government in Ireland must recognize and eventually make provision for in terms of rights.

We believe it is time Muslims in Ireland pushed for greater inclusiveness and application of Sharia both within our own community and in private contracts.

http://islamicvanguards.com/?p=179

Galvasean

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

grow up!

That's rich coming from someone who would gladly see people who offer dissenting view points locked in prison and considers that lenient.

Irish Islamic Vanguards

Galvasean wrote: »

That's rich coming from someone who would gladly see people who offer dissenting view points locked in prison and considers that lenient.

given that Nugent et al would relegate religion to the private sphere - essentially silencing dissenting opinion - I'm not really sure why you'd find objection with my position.

Rev Hellfire

I don't believe there is anything in Irish law which prevents use of Sharia law where all parties wish to adhere to it and where it does not breach Irish law.

Sarky

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

given that Nugent et al would relegate religion to the private sphere - essentially silencing dissenting opinion - I'm not really sure why you'd find objection with my position.

It's easy to object to stupid positions. Your position is stupid, and therefore objectionable.

You're not very good at this.

MagicMarker

Yay, a new friend to laugh at play with.

is this the crazy irish muslim convert who was in the paper? on a one man crusade saying "let's all give islam a go"?

Rasheed

Michael Nugent wrote: »

In Ireland, Senator Ivana Bacik and Senator Jillian Von Turnhout have raised Aan’s case in the Seanad in February, and called on the Tanaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs Eamon Gilmore to raise the issue with the Indonesian authorities.

Where the hell did these senators come out of? I thought I was reading about senators in Austria or somewhere out there.

BeerSteakBirds

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

Hold on a second - Indonesia is a predominantly Muslim country, with Islamic principles firmly tied into its constitution. The gentleman in question Alexander Aan carried out an act that is prohibited by law in that land - he did what he did knowing the risks and now should rightly take his punishment, he's fortunate its so lenient! Mr Nugent and others should realize that their liberal approach to things sacred is by no means the norm, they are a minuscule radical fringe movement in global terms and should be treated as such. That they think they can change laws in other countries because they find them offensive is laughable

Someone should have explained the concept of a country, it's culture and it's sovereign laws and the consequences of breaking those laws to disgusting people like you who wished to subvert the laws of Denmark over some cartoons of Mohammed causing murder, arson and vandalism in the name of religion. The people of Denmark are too lenient.

funky penguin

bluewolf wrote: »

is this the crazy irish muslim convert who was in the paper? on a one man crusade saying "let's all give islam a go"?

Can we still have Christmas?

Dades

funky penguin wrote: »

Can we still have Christmas?

I don't see why not. What does Santa's birthday have to do with religion?

bluewolf wrote:

is this the crazy irish muslim convert who was in the paper? on a one man crusade saying "let's all give islam a go"?

The letter discussed here...

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I don't believe there is anything in Irish law which prevents use of Sharia law where all parties wish to adhere to it and where it does not breach Irish law.

An excellent point.

Muslims can do whatever they want as long as they adhere to Irish law.

@ Irish Islamic Vanguards, you're not suggesting the law be changed or not applied to certain "communities", are you? It's bad enough we have one religion in this country that thinks the law doesn't apply to it.

robindch

BeerSteakBirds wrote: »

[...] disgusting people like you [...]

Cut out the personal comments please.

Irish Islamic Vanguards

BeerSteakBirds wrote: »

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

Hold on a second - Indonesia is a predominantly Muslim country, with Islamic principles firmly tied into its constitution. The gentleman in question Alexander Aan carried out an act that is prohibited by law in that land - he did what he did knowing the risks and now should rightly take his punishment, he's fortunate its so lenient! Mr Nugent and others should realize that their liberal approach to things sacred is by no means the norm, they are a minuscule radical fringe movement in global terms and should be treated as such. That they think they can change laws in other countries because they find them offensive is laughable

Someone should have explained the concept of a country, it's culture and it's sovereign laws and the consequences of breaking those laws to disgusting people like you who wished to subvert the laws of Denmark over some cartoons of Mohammed causing murder, arson and vandalism in the name of religion. The people of Denmark are too lenient.

I think you're forgetting one thing, no Muslim country makes the boast of liberal equality like you do - so obviously they cannot be held accountable in the same way.

Irish Islamic Vanguards

Dades wrote: »

funky penguin wrote: »

Can we still have Christmas?

I don't see why not. What does Santa's birthday have to do with religion?

bluewolf wrote:

is this the crazy irish muslim convert who was in the paper? on a one man crusade saying "let's all give islam a go"?

The letter discussed here...

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I don't believe there is anything in Irish law which prevents use of Sharia law where all parties wish to adhere to it and where it does not breach Irish law.

An excellent point.

Muslims can do whatever they want as long as they adhere to Irish law.

@ Irish Islamic Vanguards, you're not suggesting the law be changed or not applied to certain "communities", are you? It's bad enough we have one religion in this country that thinks the law doesn't apply to it.

Muslims can do whatever they want, so long as they follow Irish law - therein lies the caveat. Irish law is based on principles that are often at odds with Islam so there is a clear disconnect with your statement of freedom and reality on the ground. Given that Ireland is now a diverse society, amendments must be made to meet the needs and convictions of its Muslim minority.

oldrnwisr

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

Given that Ireland is now a diverse society, amendments must be made to meet the needs and convictions of its Muslim minority.

Amendments such as?

MagicMarker

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Amendments such as?

Stoning women? The death penalty for homosexuality? You know, the usual stuff.

MagicMarker

MagicMarker wrote: »

Stoning women? The death penalty for homosexuality? You know, the usual stuff.

and for apostasy

Irish Islamic Vanguards

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Amendments such as?

That of course would be a community decision, not that of an individual. But off hand I should imagine sharia compliant contracts, marriage and social affairs would be a start toward the inclusiveness that Muslims deserve. Remember, we are asking for no more or less than the constitution offers - the right to practice our religion in all spheres unimpeded.

Sarky

Which doesn't work when aspects of that religion contravene basic human rights. but you knew that already. As long as it's within Irish law, you can do whatever you like. Those are the rules. If you don't like that, you can try to change the law, or you can find a country more suitable to your sensitivities.

Rev Hellfire

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

That of course would be a community decision, not that of an individual. But off hand I should imagine sharia compliant contracts, marriage and social affairs would be a start toward the inclusiveness that Muslims deserve. Remember, we are asking for no more or less than the constitution offers - the right to practice our religion in all spheres unimpeded.

As long as your contracts respect Irish law you are free to do as you wish, this holds true for all other religion and groups.

robindch

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

Remember, we are asking for no more or less than the constitution offers - the right to practice our religion in all spheres unimpeded.

Well, my religion requires me to spike the drinks of every person I see regardless of age, to force all kids I meet to eat rashers and to throw stones at men who wear religious clothing or have beards.

Do you support me in my right to practice my religion in all spheres unimpeded?

complaining that the law is a problem while in the same breath referring to the constitution

Irish Islamic Vanguards

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

As long as your contracts respect Irish law you are free to do as you wish, this holds true for all other religion and groups.

I guess what is being requested here is that you observe Irish law in dealing with Muslims. Article 44 clearly allows for the free practice of religion in the public sphere, however the application of Irish law impinges on that right in so many different ways.

Irish Islamic Vanguards

robindch wrote: »

Well, my religion requires me to spike the drinks of every person I see regardless of age, to force all kids I meet to eat rashers and to throw stones at men who wear religious clothing or have beards.

Do you support me in my right to practice my religion in all spheres unimpeded?

Yawn

oldrnwisr

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

That of course would be a community decision, not that of an individual. But off hand I should imagine sharia compliant contracts, marriage and social affairs would be a start toward the inclusiveness that Muslims deserve. Remember, we are asking for no more or less than the constitution offers - the right to practice our religion in all spheres unimpeded.

That's a pretty ambiguous answer. Can you be more specific?

What is it about the current legislative environment which needs to be changed regarding the issues above.

You are already guaranteed by the constitution the freedom of religion. What consitutional amendments are you suggesting?

You know it's really strange that you're talking about inclusiveness for Muslims in society while demanding that the law treats you differently.

Sarky

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

Yawn

That's not a valid response to a yes or no question. Why so afraid of answering?

Irish Islamic Vanguards

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

Muslims can do whatever they want, so long as they follow Irish law - therein lies the caveat. Irish law is based on principles that are often at odds with Islam so there is a clear disconnect with your statement of freedom and reality on the ground. Given that Ireland is now a diverse society, amendments must be made to meet the needs and convictions of its Muslim minority.

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

Yawn

if that's your attitude after all your demands, yawn to them too

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

essentially silencing dissenting opinion

indeed

oldrnwisr

Irish Islamic Vanguards wrote: »

I guess what is being requested here is that you observe Irish law in dealing with Muslims. Article 44 clearly allows for the free practice of religion in the public sphere, however the application of Irish law impinges on that right in so many different ways.

OK, two things.

To repeat my previous post can you specify how current Irish law impinges on your rights.

Secondly, currently Irish law and the law of most secular countries is designed such that all religious groups must accede to it equally. If you're suggesting that allowances be made for your religion then other religions must be granted similar allowances. Now let us suppose that two religions have two diamterically opposed requirements for changes to the law. To whom should the law bend?

Dades

Speaker as a secularist, I can think of no worse reason to change the laws of our country then to pander to religious groups.

Furthermore - and no disrespect to you personally, IIV - given that Islam is completely at odds with an equal, secular society I'm hard pushed to think of a worse religion to pander to.

I'm not really sure what you hope to achieve posting here, tbh. You're unlikely to find a more vehement opposition to what you suggest anywhere on Boards - with the exception of After Hours (I wouldn't go there!).