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Mens Rights Thread

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,740 ✭✭✭ iptba


    sharper wrote: »
    the notion of some type of "masculine" group makes me feel quite uneasy.
    Not sure who was talking about a "masculine" group. Some were talking about a masculist group: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism

    Aside: my recollection is that the masculism page on wiki used to have a longer list of grievances. I wonder what happened there. The Men's rights wiki now looks the more interesting/thorough page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_rights

    ETA: neither of them now discuss the prison rape issue.

    ETA: here's what the page looked like last year: http://web.archive.org/web/20110715170309/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism


  • Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭ Woodward


    sharper wrote: »
    I have precisely zero interest in any type of "men's rights" movement and the notion of some type of "masculine" group makes me feel quite uneasy.

    Nor do I have any interest in battling or counter-weighting feminists.

    However, equal right does interest me a lot and so does a more balanced "equal rights" movement composed of both and women.


    The masculinists are primarily concerned with deconstructing male stereotypes. They object to the traditional male gender role and stereotype


    EDIT: The Mens Rights Movement has many women, one of our most respected bloggers is a youtuber called GirlWritesWhat. We do not push for special treatment or gender specific laws, just equal treatment in law and changing the man bad/woman good stereotype which is so prevalent


  • Site Banned Posts: 222 ✭✭ bee_keeper


    iptba wrote: »
    Women and feminists are in the driving seat in terms of how gender issues and gender politics are presented in education, and in terms of research that goes on in the gender field.

    they also own the debate when it comes to the media , bar john watters ( who is too ecentric to be taken seriously ) , i cant think of one journalist in this country who dares to question the feminist gospel


  • Site Banned Posts: 222 ✭✭ bee_keeper


    yawha wrote: »
    Which organisations? Which campaigns? Which writers? Which articles?

    julie bindel has made a career out of spewing bile against men

    our version of her would be susan mckay


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭ Madam_X


    Kevin Myers questions feminism. Actually I've seen a number of people throughout the Independent newspapers group do so.

    And Julie Bindle attacks women too.

    It's easy to name-check crazies. McKay is nowhere near as bad as Bindle.


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  • Site Banned Posts: 222 ✭✭ bee_keeper


    Onixx wrote: »
    Kevin Myers questions feminism. Actually I've seen a number of people throughout the Independent newspapers group do so.

    And Julie Bindle attacks women too.

    It's easy to name-check crazies. McKay is nowhere near as bad as Bindle.

    bindel only attacks conservative women who dont fall into line with her own world view , ghastly woman

    kevin myers writes about issues other than feminism , bindel and mckay do not in the vast majority of cases and besides , myers is almost universally demonised for doing so while bindel is a heroine amongst the sisterhood


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭ Madam_X


    You don't have to be conservative to not fall into line with her worldview - any rational woman would think she's a crackpot.
    Myers discusses other issues - what's the relevance of that? You said only Waters questions feminism - you're incorrect, myers does too. He is not almost universally demonised just because he's unpopular (he's also well liked) and who's Bindle a heroine to? Other nut-jobs no doubt. Unless you think all feminists or feminist-leaning or non traditional women are crackpots...?

    I mostly associate McKay with writings about child abuse tbh.


  • Site Banned Posts: 222 ✭✭ bee_keeper


    Onixx wrote: »
    You don't have to be conservative to not fall into line with her worldview - any rational woman would think she's a crackpot.
    Myers discusses other issues - what's the relevance of that? You said only Waters questions feminism - you're incorrect, myers does too. He is not almost universally demonised just because he's unpopular (he's also well liked) and who's Bindle a heroine to? Other nut-jobs no doubt. Unless you think all feminists or feminist-leaning or non traditional women are crackpots...?

    I mostly associate McKay with writings about child abuse tbh.

    the feminist movement has given cover and legitimacy to deeply unpleasant creatures like bindel , a female bully can get away with any amount of carnage by labelling herself a feminist , ive witnessed it myself , ive seen men brought to breaking point , when they finally decided to fight back , they were branded mysoginists who had a problem with women

    id liken it to israeli agression , any criticism is dismissed as anti semetism


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭ Madam_X


    A woman who calls herself a feminist is absolutely despised in fairness. There are tit for tats being offered here (myself no exception) and the reality is somewhere in the middle.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭ christmas2012


    fathers rights aside,dont men have all the rights,which is why mens rights movements were never set up in the first place..


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  • Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭ Woodward


    fathers rights aside,dont men have all the rights,which is why mens rights movements were never set up in the first place..

    They were set up, they just didnt receive as much support at a governmental level as the feminist groups.

    As for rights there are many areas where men are discriminated against such as reproductive rights, divorce settlements, domestic violence laws, and sexual harassment laws, health care, genital integrity and more


  • Site Banned Posts: 222 ✭✭ bee_keeper


    Onixx wrote: »
    A woman who calls herself a feminist is absolutely despised in fairness. There are tit for tats being offered here (myself no exception) and the reality is somewhere in the middle.

    despised where ?

    from what i can see , any woman who publically identifys as a feminist can be pretty sure to be handled with kid gloves


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,740 ✭✭✭ iptba


    bee_keeper wrote: »
    they also own the debate when it comes to the media , bar john watters ( who is too ecentric to be taken seriously ) , i cant think of one journalist in this country who dares to question the feminist gospel
    I think you're right about the media in general.

    Except I do think Kevin Myers and Ian O'Doherty in the Irish Independent, should be counted among the people who challenge it, like Onixx suggested.

    But RTE, for example, generally give feminists an easy ride.


  • Site Banned Posts: 222 ✭✭ bee_keeper


    iptba wrote: »
    I think you're right about the media in general.

    Except I do think Kevin Myers and Ian O'Doherty in the Irish Independent, should be counted among the people who challenge it, like Onixx suggested.

    But RTE, for example, generally give feminists an easy ride.

    RTE has always been ran by liberals

    ian o doherty is a prat who few have anytime for


  • Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭ Woodward


    bee_keeper wrote: »
    RTE has always been ran by liberals

    I would disagree here. It has always seemed to me to be very conservative, pro church, anti-sex etc...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭ Madam_X


    It doesn't matter what you think of O'Doherty - you said people in the media here don't challenge feminism. He does. Plus he likes to think he's anti liberal for a lot of issues.

    Feminists are of course on the receiving end of absolute vitriol - much directed at their appearance, sexuality, and their assumed position as man-haters and wack-jobs (when they're likely to be neither).

    But the issue of men's rights is a very valid one of course - however, as long as it is hijacked by people not actually presenting the issues in themselves and suggesting ways to challenge them, but instead using them as a platform to blame all feminists, take pot-shots as to how it would be this and this if you reversed the genders (making women immediately feel a degree of hostility) and even saying women overall have it better, not much progress will be made. If you'd like women to get involved and to disprove the theories that they're only out for themselves (not true) stop making them feel like they have to defend themselves.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,838 ✭✭✭ py2006


    There are some very dubious and deluded characters who refer to themselves as feminists, when in reality they are clueless as to what the movement is about. They are not doing themselves nor the feminist movement any favours. It is for that reason that a lot of men (and women)are very wary of a woman who will announce herself as a feminist.

    In my own experience, there is a lot of double standards when this whole issue is discussed and that is why you will hear a lot of men saying, "if the genders were reversed...".


  • Site Banned Posts: 222 ✭✭ bee_keeper


    Woodward wrote: »
    I would disagree here. It has always seemed to me to be very conservative, pro church, anti-sex etc...

    your joking , a report came out last week which showed how hundred of children had died in the care of the HSE this past number of years , the story got the bare minimum of coverage

    contrast this with the endless discussion over church abuse ( not defending church abuse btw )

    priests = fair game
    social workers = liberal sacred cows

    RTE supports the labour party , is extremley pro public sector , the liberal agenda in general , europe , multiculturalism and the democrats in the usa


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,327 ✭✭✭ Madam_X


    A suspicion that the editorial meetings at RTE comprise "Go easy on social workers, go to town on priests" is downright paranoia. And "liberal" as a negative is downright... what rednecks in the deep south say. Liberal agenda - what the hell is that?
    RTE seems neither liberal nor conservative IMO. Still got the angelus and religious (catholic leaning) programmes. Used to be heavily unionised all right but those days are over.

    Py, wariness of all feminism across the board is just ignorance and laziness. There are numerous types of feminism and degrees of militancy. It's a dirty word now that women can feel compelled to apologise for - "I'm no feminist", like "I'm no atheist"... the way some like to depict all atheists as arrogant Dawkins types.


  • Site Banned Posts: 222 ✭✭ bee_keeper


    Onixx wrote: »
    A suspicion that the editorial meetings at RTE comprise "Go easy on social workers, go to town on priests" is downright paranoia. And "liberal" as a negative is downright... what rednecks in the deep south say. Liberal agenda - what the hell is that?
    RTE seems neither liberal nor conservative IMO. Still got the angelus and religious (catholic leaning) programmes. Used to be heavily unionised all right but those days are over.

    Py, wariness of all feminism across the board is just ignorance and laziness. There are numerous types of feminism and degrees of militancy. It's a dirty word now that women can feel compelled to apologise for - "I'm no feminist", like "I'm no atheist"... the way some like to depict all atheists as arrogant Dawkins types.


    you didnt think the story about children dieing in the care of the HSE was sligtlty undercovered


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  • Registered Users Posts: 852 ✭✭✭ PrincessLola


    py2006 wrote: »

    In my own experience, there is a lot of double standards when this whole issue is discussed and that is why you will hear a lot of men saying, "if the genders were reversed...".

    Discrimination and gender relations are not two even sides of the same coin you realize, its not as simple as 'if genders were reversed', it never will be.
    You have to take into account issues like privilege and history.
    People who seriously think men are represented poorly in tv and movies need to have along hard think to themselves. Outside of idiotic 90s sitcoms, it really doesn't hold up to much scrutiny.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭ yawha


    Discrimination and gender relations are not two even sides of the same coin you realize, its not as simple as 'if genders were reversed', it never will be.
    You have to take into account issues like privilege and history.
    People who seriously think men are represented poorly in tv and movies need to have along hard think to themselves. Outside of idiotic 90s sitcoms, it really doesn't hold up to much scrutiny.
    I find a lot of the time that "if the genders were reversed" is used lazily and without much thought.

    I mean, say a woman rapes a man and he gets ridiculed since society doesn't fully accept female on male rape. This doesn't mean that "if the genders were reversed", that a male perpetrator would be locked up for years and the victim sympathized with by all. More likely her entire sexual history would be brought up in court, and the perp acquitted because she was asking for it, if she even reported it in the first place.

    And a lot of the time when it comes to presentation of dumb or sexually objectified men it's pure speculation as to what people's reaction might be to "if the genders were reversed". A lot of the time when I hear that reaction I can think of numerous examples where the genders are reversed and there's not nearly the reaction that some would lead you to believe there would be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,740 ✭✭✭ iptba


    Discrimination and gender relations are not two even sides of the same coin you realize, its not as simple as 'if genders were reversed', it never will be.
    You have to take into account issues like privilege and history.
    Bringing in things like that makes things quite subjective. There's been a lot of human history and a lot of ways it can be interpreted! And even privilege isn't as straightforward as some might make out (how about that nice privilege not to have to do military service or be conscripted that has existed almost universally in the past and isn't that much different now).

    Bringing history into it may lead to discrimination being justified as some other group were discriminated against in the past. The problem with this is that it can lead to a cycle of tit-for-tats.
    People who seriously think men are represented poorly in tv and movies need to have along hard think to themselves. Outside of idiotic 90s sitcoms, it really doesn't hold up to much scrutiny.
    Really? Trying to analyse how a gender in portrayed in the media is quite a big area, as one can see from all the work in the gender field. One counterexample that was mentioned on another thread on tGC forum in the last few days was domestic violence and how it invariably has in the past and still currently follows the model of male perpetrator/female victim.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭ Monty Burnz


    yawha wrote: »
    More likely her entire sexual history would be brought up in court, and the perp acquitted because she was asking for it, if she even reported it in the first place.
    This used to happen 30 years ago. Not so much today. And don't alleged victims have anonymity now too?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭ yawha


    Um, yes it indeed does happen today.

    You're saying the majority of female rape victims report their rapes, that male rapists get prosecuted often and there is no victim blaming or reference to a woman's sexual history in court?

    Victims have anonymity from the general public AFAIK, not sure what that has to do with anything.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭ Monty Burnz


    yawha wrote: »
    Um, yes it indeed does happen today.

    You're saying the majority of female rape victims report their rapes, that male rapists get prosecuted often and there is no victim blaming or reference to a woman's sexual history in court?
    Can you please give some examples from some recent court cases? It should be pretty easy if your claim is correct.
    yawha wrote: »
    Victims have anonymity from the general public AFAIK, not sure what that has to do with anything.
    It means that the alleged victim is offered a protection that they did not receive in the past.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,740 ✭✭✭ iptba


    Regarding rape: I remember reading that although rates of conviction for rape can look low, they aren't particularly low when one compares them to lots of other crimes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭ twinQuins


    [...] privilege and history [...]

    You mean generalisations that suit your argument. I'm growing to hate this "privelege" nonsense as it ignores individual circumstances.

    It's convenient to talk about "male privelege" as if every man is treated the same and will always, always be better off than a woman. No. Bull****. Human society is far more nuanced than that.

    Yes, I'm having a rant here, no I don't care, I'm sick of holding my tongue to keep the peace.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭ Piliger


    People who seriously think men are represented poorly in tv and movies need to have along hard think to themselves. Outside of idiotic 90s sitcoms, it really doesn't hold up to much scrutiny.

    Well clearly you don't spend much time watching tv. Either that or you just wilfully ignore what you don't want to see.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,838 ✭✭✭ py2006


    Onixx wrote: »
    Py, wariness of all feminism across the board is just ignorance and laziness.

    That is not what I said.

    I am not wary of the feminist movement. I am wary of a woman who declares herself a feminist especially when it is out of context of a discussion or whatever. Not that it happens a lot.

    I am neither ignorant or lazy thank you very much.


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