Thornley

fitz

leftleg wrote: »

I really couldn't care less what he writes about the IRFU; Its the rubbish he spouts about Kidney that makes everyone's blood boil.

Hes paid to write unbiased fact and all he seems to be able to expel lately is crooked Kidney love-in rubbish.

As I'm sure Justin will point out, he's paid to write stuff that people will read, as that's what'll sell papers.

Personally, I think the best way to do that is provide balance analysis and objective criticism. That's not what Thornley is currently offering up on the topic of the Irish team under Kidney.

JustinDee

leftleg wrote: »

I really couldn't care less what he writes about the IRFU; Its the rubbish he spouts about Kidney that makes everyone's blood boil.

Hes paid to write unbiased fact and all he seems to be able to expel lately is crooked Kidney love-in rubbish.

People are claiming he is tilted so as not to peeve off the IRFU and get interviews, access etc. However he writes plenty slamming the union itself.
I was just saying he writes what people will read.
As it happens now, he's writing and you're still reading so Gerry Thornley is happy.

fitz

JustinDee wrote: »

People are claiming he is tilted so as not to peeve off the IRFU and get interviews, access etc. However he writes plenty slamming the union itself.
I was just saying he writes what people will read.
As it happens now, he's writing and you're still reading so Gerry Thornley is happy.

Like I said earlier on, I don't think it's an access thing, and Gerry's clearly not afraid to be critical of the IRFU, probably because, as you've alluded to, a professional union isn't going to revoke credentials for him disagreeing with them.

However, I think he knows he's onto a winner with the openness shown to him by the current Irish team setup, and it's stopping him criticising because he either doesn't want to upset that particular apple-cart, or because his personal relationships are clouding his objectivity.

Whatever about other teams or areas of the sport that he writes about, he's no longer a credible pundit when it comes to the current Irish team, and in particular, it's management.

irishbucsfan

In fairness Thornleys ego-jobbing of Irish management gas given him access to very good info when the Irish squad are in camp. I think the only time I've seen him get something wrong when predicting a team is Toner on the bench over McCarthy during the 6 Nations.

If you ignore his opinions and just lift the info then he does make a decent contribution. And if you couple that with the opportunity for us boredsies to get angry and give out about him regularly then I suppose he makes as big a contribution as DM or WoC or Fanning or Toland or McQuilkin or any if the other truly decent rugby wordsmiths.

JustinDee

fitz wrote: »

Like I said earlier on, I don't think it's an access thing, and Gerry's clearly not afraid to be critical of the IRFU, probably because, as you've alluded to, a professional union isn't going to revoke credentials for him disagreeing with them.

However, I think he knows he's onto a winner with the openness shown to him by the current Irish team setup, and it's stopping him criticising because he either doesn't want to upset that particular apple-cart, or because his personal relationships are clouding his objectivity.

Whatever about other teams or areas of the sport that he writes about, he's no longer a credible pundit when it comes to the current Irish team, and in particular, it's management.

Having a bash at the IRFU and having a bash at the national coach - No difference between the two.
IRFU carries out all accreditation. The IRFU media and communications manager and their department handles all media interaction with IRFU, players and management.

leftleg

JustinDee wrote: »

Having a bash at the IRFU and having a bash at the national coach - No difference between the two.
IRFU carries out all accreditation. The IRFU media and communications manager and their department handles all media interaction with IRFU, players and management.

ok so Gerry is not biased at all because he says some bad things about the IRFU??

Do the IRFU pick the team?
Do the IRFU make the team play systems and selections??

If so what the hell do the coaching ticket do?

irishbucsfan

JustinDee wrote: »

Having a bash at the IRFU and having a bash at the national coach - No difference between the two.

But of course that's YOUR opinion!

fitz

JustinDee wrote: »

Having a bash at the IRFU and having a bash at the national coach - No difference between the two.

No difference? Ah here, Justin...
There's no difference between criticising those making strategic decisions on rules for employing NIQ players with a view to development of indigenous talent, and criticising the performance of the coach of the national team, who has no role in those strategic development decisions? C'mon.

JustinDee wrote: »

IRFU carries out all accreditation. The IRFU media and communications manager and their department handles all media interaction with IRFU, players and management.

I met Karl in Welly, at The Establishment, the night before the squad headed home from the WC. Chatted for about 40 minutes, lovely chap.
What I'm saying is that I'm sure that side of it is handled completely professionally, and accreditation isn't going to be revoked for petty reasons...

...BUT! My point is that once people get talking, they're more likely to be a bit more open with the fella that isn't criticising than the guy who is. It's human nature, and that has to be accepted. It's a context in which we need to read Thornley's output.

CatFromHue

fitz wrote: »

I met Karl in Welly, at The Establishment, the night before the squad headed home from the WC. Chatted for about 40 minutes, lovely chap.
What I'm saying is that I'm sure that side of it is handled completely professionally, and accreditation isn't going to be revoked for petty reasons...

Come on down to The Establishment for

$5 STEINLAGER PURE UNTIL THE ALL BLACKS SCORE*

$5 GUINNESS UNTIL IRELAND SCORE*

*from kick off

http://www.theestablishment.co.nz/

Interesting drinks promotion.......the Guinness is poor to say the least though over there.

JustinDee

leftleg wrote: »

Do the IRFU pick the team?
Do the IRFU make the team play systems and selections??

Do the management and players co-ordinate liaison with the print, TV or photo media?
No, they don't. Interviews and access are run by IRFU.

fitz

JustinDee wrote: »

Do the management and players co-ordinate liaison with the print, TV or photo media?
No, they don't. Interviews and access are run by IRFU.

Similarly though, Justin, the IRFU aren't the ones who do the talking in the interviews once the access is organised. The suggestion that access would be revoked because of critical articles isn't credible, but you have to accept that what a journo writes may impact the reception he gets when he does subsequently gets talking to the people he's written about. People are simply pointing out, correctly imo, that in Thornley's case, this results in him not criticising the Irish team.

leftleg

JustinDee wrote: »

Interviews and access are run by IRFU.

Again you have answered nothing here; this is a statement about nothing.

Gerry makes an attack on the IRFU in an article; wow wee;

Gerry writes nice things about Declan;

Gerry requests an interview with Declan through the IRFU;

The IRFU ask Declan does he (love) want to do an interview with said (favourite) journalist.

Declan gladly accepts interview;

IRFU set up time and place for both to interview;

Interview takes place; journalist asks nice questions and gets lovely answers which he prints in certain newspaper;

Game over;

The IRFU are like a doorman or a letterbox in this whole episode;

Anything said about the IRFU by said journo is irrelevant to the topic being discussed and the only intention of its mention imo is to take this thread off topic.

fitz

leftleg wrote: »

Again you have answered nothing here; this is a statement about nothing.

Gerry makes an attack on the IRFU in an article; wow wee;

Gerry writes nice things about Declan;

Gerry requests an interview with Declan through the IRFU;

The IRFU ask Declan does he (love) want to do an interview with said (favourite) journalist.

Declan gladly accepts interview;

IRFU set up time and place for both to interview;

Interview takes place; journalist asks nice questions and gets lovely answers which he prints in certain newspaper;

Game over;

The IRFU are like a doorman or a letterbox in this whole episode;

Anything said about the IRFU by said journo is irrelevant to the topic being discussed and the only intention of its mention imo is to take this thread off topic.

I wouldn't assume that Kidney gets asked about who he wants to give an interview too.
I think Justin is taking exception, mostly, to the suggestion that the IRFU would shut down peoples access if they were criticising the coach.
And he's right, it's a silly suggestion really, that would only give the shut-out journo more ammo.

totallegend

JustinDee wrote: »

IRFU carries out all accreditation. The IRFU media and communications manager and their department handles all media interaction with IRFU, players and management.

You keep saying this; has anyone suggested otherwise?

leftleg

fitz wrote: »

I think Justin is taking exception, mostly, to the suggestion that the IRFU would shut down peoples access if they were criticising the coach.

Again its irrelevant;

Gerry has slamed the IRFU in the past and has not been castigated in anyway; so that is a non story;

The story here is that Gerry never has a bad word to say about anything to do with Kidney;

Any gripes JD has with regard to stuff said on here re his employers is totally irrelevant to this whole conversation.

totallegend

fitz wrote: »

I wouldn't assume that Kidney gets asked about who he wants to give an interview too.
I think Justin is taking exception, mostly, to the suggestion that the IRFU would shut down peoples access if they were criticising the coach.
And he's right, it's a silly suggestion really, that would only give the shut-out journo more ammo.

That was never suggested; only Justin himself brought that into the conversation. What was brought up was the David Kelly situation in 2006, when players refused to talk to him, but his media accreditation was never revoked. The IRFU would never refuse a pass to the rugby correspondent from the Indo/Times/Examiner, no matter what he wrote.

JustinDee

leftleg wrote: »

Again its irrelevant;
Gerry has slamed the IRFU in the past and has not been castigated in anyway; so that is a non story;
The story here is that Gerry never has a bad word to say about anything to do with Kidney

Any gripes JD has with regard to stuff said on here re his employers is totally irrelevant to this whole conversation.

Lol, it is not "irrelevant".

People are claiming that to say something bad about the coach or management results in them getting no more access or possibly even accreditation. I was saying this isn't the case as having a go at the union is the exact same. The management and players do not co-ordinate interviews or access. The union does. That is why.
I don't have any gripes with the posts on this. Its just an internet forum and I'm just giving you a scope of where all this sits.

leftleg

JustinDee wrote: »

People are claiming that to say something bad about the coach or management results in them getting no more access or possibly even accreditation. I was saying this isn't the case as having a go at the union is the exact same. The management and players do not co-ordinate interviews or access. The union does.

So if Declan Kidney doesnt want to talk to a journalist; does he have any choice in the matter??

Podge_irl

CatFromHue wrote: »

Come on down to The Establishment for

$5 STEINLAGER PURE UNTIL THE ALL BLACKS SCORE*

$5 GUINNESS UNTIL IRELAND SCORE*

*from kick off

http://www.theestablishment.co.nz/

Interesting drinks promotion.......the Guinness is poor to say the least though over there.

I've a feeling a lot of people will be on the Guinness :-(

Podge_irl

I really don't think Thornley gives Kidney an easy ride on order to maintain his access. I don't think it's a calculated approach at all. I think he genuinely believes what he writes.

JustinDee

leftleg wrote: »

So if Declan Kidney doesnt want to talk to a journalist; does he have any choice in the matter??

Anyone can turn an interviewer down for any reason. Thing is, it doesn't happen. Interviews are arranged around camp, in camp, on captains run day, pre-match and post-match and the players/management attend them. It really is that simple.

What people here tend to forget is the sheer number of correspondents covering the sport here. Check out the different names covering rugby union in the three main Irish broadsheets, for example.
There is a considerable rush to get something in print but individual and attributable to the correspondent who penned it. They all, understandly, want to be read.

I've plenty to say myself about certain articles or coverage of certain areas but I'd prefer to keep that within my own little humble circle. Regarding what I've described up until now, I'm not sticking up for any of the pundits. Just pointing out how things run with media relations. Its actually not that different to any other pundit covering politics, music, movies, theatre etc.

irishbucsfan

Justin originally says the IRFU don't control the media so there's no way they're responsible for Kidneys attitude.

But then he says Kidney couldn't be responsible because the IRFU control the media?

justsomebloke

mod warning. Please do not quote articles from newspapers as it is currently not permissible on boards. some posts have been edited to remove articles, if I have missed any please report the post and I will remove any remaing

JustinDee

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Justin originally says the IRFU don't control the media so there's no way they're responsible for Kidneys attitude

??
I've never once mentioned Declan Kidney's attitude.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But then he says Kidney couldn't be responsible because the IRFU control the media?

Again . . . ??
Media relations are co-ordinated. No media is "controlled...". Regardless of conspiracies involving toe-stepping, there is actually a significant difference in what I said.

leftleg

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Justin originally says the IRFU don't control the media so there's no way they're responsible for Kidneys attitude.

But then he says Kidney couldn't be responsible because the IRFU control the media?

welcome to the merrigoround;

chin up;

leftleg

JustinDee wrote: »

??

Media relations are co-ordinated. No media is "controlled...". Regardless of conspiracies involving toe-stepping, there is actually a significant difference in what I said.

so now were down to what the difference between controlled and co-ordinated is.......i have to say getting straight forward answers from you is like seeing Ireland play well lately; it never happens

totallegend

Justin is deliberately muddying the waters by trying to confuse the entirely separate issues of media accreditation (i.e. getting into press conferences, training session and the press box) and player/coach access (i.e. getting meaningful interviews and content).

All journalists will get accreditation, decent access is another issue.

DeDoc

leftleg wrote: »

On EOS in RWC 2007

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2007/0918/1190060014681.html


Granted, the Springboks and the Wallabies had altogether longer-term priorities. Jake White brought over a largely second string team. John Connolly and his brains trust were trying different combinations with a view to getting the balance of their squad right. They were building toward this World Cup.

11 of the 22 on duty in Croke Park that day were involved in the 22 for the World cup final. Two more (Pierre Spies and Jean de Villiers) almost certainly would have been barring injury. Only 2 starters and one sub, were in my opinion, 'experimental' in any way - Jaco Pretorius, Bevin Fortuin Chiliboy Ralapele. Others like BJ Botha and Albert Van den Berg were seasoned professionals who were comfortable at that level.

As for Australia - 13 of that 22 were in the 22 that lost to England in the WC QF, and only Tai McIsaac (starting) and Josh Valentine (bench) were any way really experimental -the rest were all squad players. Granted Giteau was played at nine, but I recall him being quite good there on tour.

GerM

DeDoc wrote: »

It is easy to make fun of the Anthony Horgan selection - but who else was fit and available at the time?

Sorry to drag things backwards but this one stuck out a little. EOS left Dempsey on the bench for the game who had played a fair bit on the wing for Ireland at that point or could have slotted in at 15 with Murphy moving to the wing. Trimble was in form and playing well in Ulster. John Kelly was doing well that season too. Rob Kearney was having a break out season at winger too although was possibly too raw at that point. Anthony Horgan was genuiney the last winger I'd have selected. They could also have left Shaggy on the wing and brought in a centre.

I know hindsight is a wonderful thing but the selection raised serous eyebrows at the time even before the game.

JustinDee

totallegend wrote: »

Justin is deliberately muddying the waters by trying to confuse the entirely separate issues of media accreditation (i.e. getting into press conferences, training session and the press box) and player/coach access (i.e. getting meaningful interviews and content)

I flipping well am not trying to muddy anything, "totallegend".
Player/coach access is the same as anything else.

totallegend wrote: »

All journalists will get accreditation, decent access is another issue.

Rubbish. Each accreditation is applied for match-to-match for each and every journalist, regardless of outlet. Everyone has "decent access", as I have already described.
Not everyone does interviews or even wants to do interviews.

You've experience or some insight into this area, have you?