Illegal Bog-cutting, no enforcement.

MadsL

It seems that environmental legislation counts for very little when confronted with sheer greed. 9 out of 53 protected bogs in Ireland are being irreparably damaged by continuing illegal extraction.

An Taisce press release.

“Taoiseach asked to stand over his promise on protected bogs”


Environmental organisations, An Taisce and Friends of the Irish Environment, have asked the Taoiseach to stand over his promise to defend bogs protected under law.

Peat is now being illegally extracted on 9 of the 53 protected bogs in spite of the Taoiseach's pledge that the law would be upheld.

We are asking the Taoiseach to prove he was, and is, sincere in his pledge to uphold the law.

“Because the law is not being enforced, turf contractors are being emboldened. Starting with unlawful cutting on one or two protected bogs, the situation quickly rose to 9, and without a commitment to uphold the law, the situation could spiral out of control”, the environmental organisations have warned, saying the Government's peatland protection programme risks being shredded unless the Taoiseach acts quickly and firmly.

Fines from Europe are becoming inevitable as breaches of European law are at issue. These fines will be paid for by the country not the illegal turfcutters and unless action is taken, Ireland risks losing the goodwill of member states such as the Netherlands and Germany for an apparent couldn't-care-less attitude on this issue.

The environmental organisations have eyewitness reports of members of An Garda Siochana laughing and joking as they apparently stand by watching the law being broken. While the organisations are not willing to release their sources, they say they have received too many such reports to be in any doubt about their authenticity.

Those breaking the law face no sanctions apparently, note An Taisce and FoIE, saying that it does not seem that names are being recorded with a view to prosecutions. No turf-cutting machines are being seized - in fact, there appear to be no consequences whatsoever - and all this in spite of new legislation which the Government announced was enacted specifically to cope with illegal extraction on what is around 2 per cent of Ireland's peatland.

An Taisce and FoIE also note that a home insulation and energy enhancement programme was to be offered to turfcutters - but there has been a wholesale lack of progress on this issue over the past 6 months, despite promises in the intervening period that lost ground would be recovered.

A decision was made in September 2011 to offer a home insulation / energy package to households, and this programme offers by far the best solution to the turf-cutting impasse when economic, environmental and social considerations are weighed together.

The problem seems to be resources. In spite of the millions upon millions now being talked about for annual compensation payments, there appears to be no resources for home insulation / energy enhancement. There is a hopeless mismatch between what the Government says it wants to do and how it is deploying resources.

Nidot

I can hardly say that I'm surprised. The law was brought because of an EU directive. It was not brought in with consultation of the stake-holders (i.e. the turf cutters) who have accepted payment in order to desist from this activity but have not bee given any incentive to actually stop the cutting of turf.

If the government actually thought that paying-off a selection of people and getting them to promise they wouldn't continue to cut turf was really going to work then whoever was negotiating on the government behalf must of been the most naiive Irish person alive (possibly the same person in the room when the bank guarantee was given who questionned the banks about their liquidity).

MadsL

Nidot wrote: »

I can hardly say that I'm surprised. The law was brought because of an EU directive. It was not brought in with consultation of the stake-holders (i.e. the turf cutters) who have accepted payment in order to desist from this activity but have not bee given any incentive to actually stop the cutting of turf.

If the government actually thought that paying-off a selection of people and getting them to promise they wouldn't continue to cut turf was really going to work then whoever was negotiating on the government behalf must of been the most naiive Irish person alive (possibly the same person in the room when the bank guarantee was given who questionned the banks about their liquidity).

I notice 3/4 of the 'turfcutters' wanted the payment, not alternative cutting rights elsewhere. I'd love to know the number of 'active' turf-cutters; probably a handful of the 1400 people registered for the payment. For active turfcutters this is a business, not a tradition.

View

Nidot wrote: »

I can hardly say that I'm surprised. The law was brought because of an EU directive. It was not brought in with consultation of the stake-holders (i.e. the turf cutters) who have accepted payment in order to desist from this activity but have not bee given any incentive to actually stop the cutting of turf.

Three points:

1) The EU Directive was agreed to by Ireland,
2) The relevant bogs were designated by our government based on scientific advice not by the EU.
3) Paying someone IS an incentive to stop doing something.

MadsL

accepted payment in order to desist from this activity but have not bee given any incentive to actually stop the cutting of turf.

How morally corrupt can you get?

1. Be shown through scientific evidence that turf-cutting damages a valuable ecologically resource, and a rare one at that. Also be shown that bogs are carbon-sinks, absorbing CO2 and helping counter-balance climate change.

2. Not care, citing sepia toned prints of old fellas footing turf, and getting onto the local TD. Whine about rights.

3. Take a payment to stop the practice.

4. Carry on anyway.


Sickening. Full powers of the law should come to bear on these parasites.

lmimmfn

I disagree with the whole thing anyway, just another plan to have everyone dependent on oil/gas.

nice_guy80

people need turf to heat their homes

simple as

K-9

It's 53 bogs!

MadsL

nice_guy80 wrote: »

people need turf to heat their homes

simple as

Sorry, but bollix. This isn't about briquettes from Bord Na Mona, this is a bunch of gob****es tearing up protected bogs (2 per cent of Ireland's peatland) with machines and selling the turf. After taking payments and saying they will stop.

lmimmfn wrote: »

I disagree with the whole thing anyway, just another plan to have everyone dependent on oil/gas.

Would you ever bother to do a bit of reading and educate yourself as to why these bogs (just 2% of bogs) are protected.
http://www.ipcc.ie/inforaisedbogfs.html

the_syco

nice_guy80 wrote: »

people need turf to heat their homes

This is the reason why most Gardai will do sweet f**k all about people cutting up the bogs. I dare say that half of the senior Gardai in the locality of said bogs will have some sort of plot of the bog themselves, or access to one.

MadsL

Originally Posted by nice_guy80
people need turf to heat their homes

How many homes in Ireland need to cut up a protected bog rather than use packaged briquettes or coal/logs (or God forbid, electricity) to heat their homes. This type of absolute codology will end up with the taxpayer forking out millions in fines to the EU.

Does anyone seriously swallow the guff talked about the bogs? This isn't evictions, it is simply trying to get rural Ireland to grow up and take some responsibility for their actions. Dublin and other cities banned non-smokeless coal and no-one is freezing to death iirc.

my friend

MadsL wrote: »

How many homes in Ireland need to cut up a protected bog rather than use packaged briquettes or coal/logs (or God forbid, electricity) to heat their homes

'packaged briquettes' ???

what do you think these are made from? :pac:

meglome

my friend wrote: »

'packaged briquettes' ???

what do you think these are made from? :pac:

Not from protected bogs I'd imagine.

MadsL

'packaged briquettes' ???

what do you think these are made from?

You might want to read about the different types of bog.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raised_bog#Raised_bog

The protected bogs are raised bogs, not the blanket bog that BNM package and sell.

Of course the misinformationists like Ming won't tell you that.

Pete_Cavan

nice_guy80 wrote: »

people need turf to heat their homes

simple as

Maybe in the 1950's and 60's when most people used open fires and solid fuel fired back-boiler heating systems, today the vast majority of houses have central heating systems which provide space and water heating. Most of those using turf will only use it for heating a room (i.e. an open fire or stove) and will have another source of heating for the rest of the house and the hot water. Turf has a low clarorific content and is very limited as a domestic fuel, even if turf is the primary source of heat in a house, they will still require other sources to provide hot water (most likely an electric immersion) so the idea that people "need" turf is not true.

And thats before we get into the unsustainability of harvesting a fuel which takes hundreds of years to develop, and the environmental damage caused by destroying a carbon sink, damaging an area which stores water preventing flooding of other areas and obliterating a rare habitat.

Welease

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Maybe in the 1950's and 60's when most people used open fires and solid fuel fired back-boiler heating systems, today the vast majority of houses have central heating systems which provide space and water heating. Most of those using turf will only use it for heating a room (i.e. an open fire or stove) and will have another source of heating for the rest of the house and the hot water. Turf has a low clarorific content and is very limited as a domestic fuel, even if turf is the primary source of heat in a house, they will still require other sources to provide hot water (most likely an electric immersion) so the idea that people "need" turf is not true.

And thats before we get into the unsustainability of harvesting a fuel which takes hundreds of years to develop, and the environmental damage caused by destroying a carbon sink, damaging an area which stores water preventing flooding of other areas and obliterating a rare habitat.

You would be surpised at home many people still use it as a primary heat source for both heating and water in their houses.. each and everyone of my neighbours does (Kildare). Drive through the countryside and look at the amount of people with large turf sheds will testify to that. One of the primary reasons is cost, we have just put in a new Stanley oven burner (at a cost of over €5k) because it costs about 1/3 to heat our house compared to using our oil based system while providing better heat throughout the day (as we can keep the system running all day).

However, as previously said there are enough non protected bogs which should be able to provide this fuel source, people don't need to cut into the protected bogs especially when it's a small percentage of overall usable bog..

Much like a lot of issues in Ireland, this comes down to enforcement (or lack of) of rules that are already in place..

MadsL

Welease wrote: »

this comes down to enforcement (or lack of) of rules that are already in place..

Sorry, but this comes down to sheer moral fibre. You accept a payment to stop doing something (make a promise) and then do it anyway, knowing that other people (the taxpayer) will get fined for your behaviour.

More moral integrity in a slug.

Electricity, oil, prepackaged turf, wood logs, wood pellets, coal and gas are all alternatives and easily accessed or converted.

the_syco

MadsL wrote: »

Dublin and other cities banned non-smokeless coal and no-one is freezing to death iirc.

Never knew people mined coal for home use...

Welease wrote: »

However, as previously said there are enough non protected bogs which should be able to provide this fuel source

Unfortunately, it's down to what people have been using for the past 100 years. A plot that my grandfather used was passed down to an uncle, and so forth.

The latter point is also very important, as (and I stand to be corrected) partitioned off to people living in a radius of said bog, so I wonder how people not near said bog can access it to cut turf, as to do so would be cutting turf from someone elses plot.

MadsL

the_syco wrote: »

Unfortunately, it's down to what people have been using for the past 100 years. A plot that my grandfather used was passed down to an uncle, and so forth.

The latter point is also very important, as (and I stand to be corrected) partitioned off to people living in a radius of said bog, so I wonder how people not near said bog can access it to cut turf, as to do so would be cutting turf from someone elses plot.

And there is the complete con, machines are cutting what used to be individuals footing turf, and cutting large sections of bog. It may be shared, but these machine-owners are making money at it.

If I tell you my grandfather used to train pitbulls to fight for sport, does that give me rights to do the same?

Welease

MadsL wrote: »

Sorry, but this comes down to sheer moral fibre. You accept a payment to stop doing something (make a promise) and then do it anyway, knowing that other people (the taxpayer) will get fined for your behaviour.

More moral integrity in a slug..

Welcome to real life.. It could be argued that the vast majority of people don't have the perfect moral charachter you seek.. Pay less tax than you should, break the speed limit in a car, fail to clean up some litter. etc. All moral/legal failings to various degrees, and thats why agencies exist to deal with these transgressions.
If (or when) it becomes a big enough issue the relevant authorities will do something about it and stop it in a heartbeat.. If you waiting for these "moral slugs" to see the light then you are likely in for a long wait. I don't condone them cutting protected bogs, but I doubt they will suddenly see the light and stop without any intervention from state agencies.

MadsL wrote: »

Electricity, oil, prepackaged turf, wood logs, wood pellets, coal and gas are all alternatives and easily accessed or converted.

Why would I need to convert across? 98% of the bogs are legally harvested and people purchase fuel from there. As for why people want to stay with peat, well in my case (and the case of the bulk of my neighbours) it offers the best legal solution regarding output vs cost (about 1/3 the cost of oil).

MadsL

Welease wrote: »

Welcome to real life.. It could be argued that the vast majority of people don't have the perfect moral charachter you seek.. Pay less tax than you should, break the speed limit in a car, fail to clean up some litter. etc. All moral/legal failings to various degrees, and thats why agencies exist to deal with these transgressions.
If (or when) it becomes a big enough issue the relevant authorities will do something about it and stop it in a heartbeat.. If you waiting for these "moral slugs" to see the light then you are likely in for a long wait. I don't condone them cutting protected bogs, but I doubt they will suddenly see the light and stop without any intervention from state agencies.

I am a realist and do believe in enforcement. However there is something particularly odious about us making a payment to these people and them pocketing the money and carrying on regardless. It feels rather treacherous and unpatriotic to me. That's why environmental groups are calling for enforcement. If it were up to me, I think fraud charges would be in order.

Why would I need to convert across? 98% of the bogs are legally harvested and people purchase fuel from there. As for why people want to stay with peat, well in my case (and the case of the bulk of my neighbours) it offers the best legal solution regarding output vs cost (about 1/3 the cost of oil).

I included prepackaged turf in my list. If it comes from a legal source, grand (well, as grand as an unsustainable fossil fuel gets)

MadsL

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0521/1224316456680.html

PRIVATE AIRCRAFT contractors are being hired by the State to work alongside the Defence Forces in gathering evidence against illegal turfcutters.

A total of 10 separate flights have been flown by a private company over boglands this year costing €13,148 with more flights expected over the coming month.

So, not content wth destroying the environment, these gobsh1te are costing the state further 1000s of euro. I'm all for enforcement, but where are the prosecutions?

Also why don't they use drones for this - surely cheaper.

Turfcutters who stop cutting on affected bogs are entitled to a concession worth €23,000, spread over 15 years, with an initial once-off payment of €500.

€1500 a year for the next 15 years! Given you can get bales of briquettes for about 2.50 by buying in bulk that's 600 bales a year, or buying in bulk about 10 tons of loose briquette. Jesus, that's one warm house.

Independent TD Luke Flanagan, a spokesman for the Turf Cutters and Contractors Association, said that the surveillance of bogs was a poor use of public funds. “I think it is a complete and utter waste of money, turfcutters aren’t exactly going around murdering people.

A response worthy of a twelve year old, how is this man a TD?. I used to like him, he just sickens me now. "well, huh, nobody died" - no, but they are shafting the Irish taxpayer you are supposed to be representing. Absolute moral cowardice and popularism of the worst kind.

goose2005

MadsL wrote: »

Also why don't they use drones for this - surely cheaper.

Not likely. €1,300 for a flight is bargain-basement as it is.

MadsL

TD Luke Flanagan has continued to defend his comments likening the cutting of turf on raised bogs to the resistance movement against the Nazis. Yesterday, he likened the turfcutters’ plight to that of black civil rights hero, Rosa Parks.

Yesterday, on Shannonside Radio, he used Parks as another example to explain why law breaking should sometimes take place.

"There are occasions that during the tyranny of the state that the law needs to be broken. I could have used Rosa Parks, refusing to sit at the back of a bus, as an example of where the law got it wrong," he said.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/nine-of-53-protected-bogs-being-cut-illegally-194704.html

Jesus Christ, how stoned was Flanagan when he did this interview. Turfcutters being discriminated against like Blacks in 50s America are they? What an absolute joke.

MadsL

Galway turfcutters claim they are being intimidated by low flying aircraft that are checking to see if the turf cutting ban is being adhered to.

Up to 50 turfcutters gathered in protest in Loughrea last evening [May 22] where the European Affairs Minister was officiated at a meeting.

Minister Lucinda Creighton was addressing a public meeting and Q&A session on the upcoming referendum on the European Fiscal Treaty.

The group has now cut turf in Barroughter, Ardraigue and Killimor raised boglands and began working on Clonmoylan at the weekend.

Speaking to Galway Bay FM news, Dermot Moran of the local bogs action group says
turfcutters asked the Minister to intervene against the EU ban

http://www.galwaynews.ie/25946-galway-turfcutters-protest-loughrea-treaty-meeting

Can someone clarify that these guys have accepted payments?

Apparently, enforcement of the law is 'intimidation'. In which case should we lobby to take Gardai off the streets?

Tora Bora

goose2005 wrote: »

Not likely. €1,300 for a flight is bargain-basement as it is.

Yearra, sure whats a few million here, when at the end of the day all those criminals cutting a few barrow loads of turf, can be caught and the full rigour of the law applied to them:cool:
I mean it's not as if, we need the money for any other higher priority cause, like hospital waiting times etc,.
No not at all, ............ let the peasants line up in the hospital corridors, while the state focuses it's attention on the bog cutters of Ireland.

Nody

Tora Bora wrote: »

Yearra, sure whats a few million here, when at the end of the day all those criminals cutting a few barrow loads of turf, can be caught and the full rigour of the law applied to them:cool:
I mean it's not as if, we need the money for any other higher priority cause, like hospital waiting times etc,.
No not at all, ............ let the peasants line up in the hospital corridors, while the state focuses it's attention on the bog cutters of Ireland.

Seeing how they are paid 23k per head to stop cutting turf spending 1.6k to catch them doing it seems like a good deal to me; stop the payment, fine them and you've got a nice saving right there and then...

Tora Bora

Nody wrote: »

Seeing how they are paid 23k per head to stop cutting turf spending 1.6k to catch them doing it seems like a good deal to me; stop the payment, fine them and you've got a nice saving right there and then...

Don't pay them the €23k. Don't spend another €1.6k trying to catch them cutting afterwards.
That's €24.6k saved right there. Now move on them there trollies, with the sick and wounded on them;)
Meanwhile them hardy boys are out there cutting turf, reducing imports of oil, helping the balance of payments:cool:
They are also getting good cardiovascular excercise ........... cutting down even more on hospital demands:P
WIN, WIN, WIN .....................

MadsL

Tora Bora wrote: »

Yearra, sure whats a few million here, when at the end of the day all those criminals cutting a few barrow loads of turf, can be caught and the full rigour of the law applied to them:cool:
I mean it's not as if, we need the money for any other higher priority cause, like hospital waiting times etc,.
No not at all, ............ let the peasants line up in the hospital corridors, while the state focuses it's attention on the bog cutters of Ireland.

You sound like Ming, yada yada nobody died. Whataboutery gets us nowhere.

As there are such pressing other issues like hospital waiting times then lets stop enforcing all laws that carry less than six months in prison and focus all the energies there. Then in 12 months time you can come back here and complain that road deaths are through the roof and what about it.

These 'bog-cutters' of Ireland are destroying protected habitats that make up less than 1% of the bogs in Ireland. They are also taking your money and laughing in your face; if they continue, they will cost you even more in EU fines.

Environmental protection legislation cannot be negotiated away in Europe, there are specific clauses that do not allow local custom to take precedent over EU law. This "negotiate with the European bullies" is a complete red herring, and is just a ploy to appear hard done by.

MadsL

Tora Bora wrote: »

Don't pay them the €23k. Don't spend another €1.6k trying to catch them cutting afterwards.
That's €24.6k saved right there. Now move on them there trollies, with the sick and wounded on them;)
Meanwhile them hardy boys are out there cutting turf, reducing imports of oil, helping the balance of payments:cool:
They are also getting good cardiovascular excercise ........... cutting down even more on hospital demands:P
WIN, WIN, WIN .....................

And **** on their doorstep. An Irish solution?

As to good cardiovascular excercise, how much good cardiovascular excercise does it take to drive a JCB?

You have swallowed the "aul'wans footin' a bit o'turf" line again...

Atilathehun

MadsL wrote: »

Tora Bora wrote: »

Yearra, sure whats a few million here, when at the end of the day all those criminals cutting a few barrow loads of turf, can be caught and the full rigour of the law applied to them:cool:
I mean it's not as if, we need the money for any other higher priority cause, like hospital waiting times etc,.
No not at all, ............ let the peasants line up in the hospital corridors, while the state focuses it's attention on the bog cutters of Ireland.

You sound like Ming, yada yada nobody died. Whataboutery gets us nowhere.

As there are such pressing other issues like hospital waiting times then lets stop enforcing all laws that carry less than six months in prison and focus all the energies there. Then in 12 months time you can come back here and complain that road deaths are through the roof and what about it.

These 'bog-cutters' of Ireland are destroying protected habitats that make up less than 1% of the bogs in Ireland. They are also taking your money and laughing in your face; if they continue, they will cost you even more in EU fines.

Environmental protection legislation cannot be negotiated away in Europe, there are specific clauses that do not allow local custom to take precedent over EU law. This "negotiate with the European bullies" is a complete red herring, and is just a ploy to appear hard done by.

But the plain people of Ireland told the greens to shin back up their tree at the last election. The bicycle clips, won't have a say in creating legislation in this country for years to come, thankfully.
Stop cutting turf my arse, and haul oil in from the gulf of Arabia instead. Meanwhile back at the ranch, keep the protest going on at the Shell site in Mayo.
Talk about too many eejits with far too little to do!!!

lmimmfn

MadsL wrote: »

They are also taking your money and laughing in your face

I have more of an issue with my money going to bail out banks and developers, i say fair dues to them, better them getting cash than banks and bankers. Banks/Bankers and developers are the ones laughing at all of us.

tbh its difficult to understand you placing such emphasis on environmental issues when most of the country is struggling to get by, and im sure those turf cutters are in the same boat. The environment is important of course, but so is feeding yourself and your family and keeping your family warm. If it was large corporations taking the piss i would have an issue, but its not.

MadsL

lmimmfn wrote: »

MadsL wrote: »

They are also taking your money and laughing in your face

I have more of an issue with my money going to bail out banks and developers, i say fair dues to them, better them getting cash than banks and bankers. Banks/Bankers and developers are the ones laughing at all of us.

tbh its difficult to understand you placing such emphasis on environmental issues when most of the country is struggling to get by, and im sure those turf cutters are in the same boat. The environment is important of course, but so is feeding yourself and your family and keeping your family warm. If it was large corporations taking the piss i would have an issue, but its not.

When are people actually going to wake up to the fact that "beating the system" only actually makes life harder for everyone. These people aren't taking money from anyone except the taxpayer, just the same as welfare fraud.

joela

Well said MadsL on so many levels!

First of all let us clear up the BS about no one consulted, poor us etc. Many of these bogs were designated as far back as 1997, the designations were advertised in the papers, on the radio and where they could find owners they wrote to them. At that time the much lauded Paddy Concannon started arguing about the bogs so he and others knew bloody well what was on the cards but the FF government at the time decided they would give a 10 year "derogation" which was in fact not even legal.

Secondly the EU Directive itself was transposed into Irish law in 1997 so while we signed up to the 1992 Habitats Directive (voted in by the Irish people under various referenda) we also made it LAW. That is right LAW, Irish LAW. The guberment decided they would ignore their legal obligations, allow the turf cutters a derogation but still keep all the lovely lolly handed over by Europe. So around 2005 the EU were getting a bit annoyed with this carry on so we appeased them, to keep taking the lovely money, and designated some more bogs as SAC and also NHA with the understanding that the NHAs would be given the same protection as SAC bogs. What bloody protection:rolleyes:

So eventually the so called derogation ended, the destruction was out of hand and in the intervening years what had the turf cutters done to adapt to the ban? Nothing, sweet FA, they assumed that the government would keep ignoring their legal obligations and they could keep on destroying important natural heritage while making an undeclared income. Not only that but many of these poor turf cutters were also claiming payments from Brussels. Well that may come back to bite them on the backside because they are in danger of losing their payments under the cross compliance scheme because they are damaging a Natura 2000 site.

These people had ample time to take advantage of the derogation and change their way of heating etc. and get compensation on top of that. The thing is they don't give a crap about the rest of the country, they don't care about the importance of these habitats for flora and fauna, they don't care that they are destroying vast carbon sinks, carbon sinks that are even more important than the Amazon rainforests in terms of carbon storage. They are costing us money in more ways than one, they pollute watercourses with peat siltation which has risks to human health when passed through the water treatment systems.

The watercourses also provide habitat for fish and rare species such as the Freshwater Pearl Mussel. All of these things are adversely affected by the turf cutting activities PLUS cutting away wetlands such as raised bogs effectively removes our natural flood defences in times of heavy rainfall so next time your house is inundated with water think about the bog that used to be there protecting downstream towns and villages from flooding. Obviously building on floodplains, industrial turf extraction, forestry etc. all cause these problems too but these sites were chosen more than 10years ago by Irish scientists as the best functioning sites we had left. So if the sites were properly protected and restoration work begun in earnest we could have at least 53 sites providing free flood protection, less taxpayers money to be spent on artificial flood defences, free water filtration i.e. acting as a natural filter for our groundwater, cleaner rivers and streams, better quality water to drink, unique habitat for rare flora and fauna plus we would also have functioning carbon sinks of global importance.

Finally to say, other countries do not provide compensation for sites designated as Natura 2000. Here you have three months to appeal the decision and they provide you with money to get reports etc. done. Once the 3 months are past there is no going back, the turf cutters chose to believe they were above the law and that the rest of the country doesn't matter. In other EU countries sites are designated, people are expected to behave themselves and look after the sites as expected for the GREATER GOOD.

lmimmfn

MadsL wrote: »

When are people actually going to wake up to the fact that "beating the system" only actually makes life harder for everyone. These people aren't taking money from anyone except the taxpayer, just the same as welfare fraud.

so its fine people walking away from endebting the taxpayer with 10's of billions yet this is an absolute disgrace to the system?

Are you serious? if so if only we had such enthusiasm for the real problems in the country.

Back in 2009 we had nurses striking( again ) and people walking the streets to close down head shops while the country had already started experiencing the worst austerity since it was formed.

This country needs a good beating with the reality stick.

joela

New Report just released from Friends of the Irish Environment which is supported by aerial photographs which were taken on the 29th May. The report while unsurprisingly depressing to read is not the most shocking thing by a long shot when you take a look at the photographs. The report can be accessed here and the photos here. Some of these bogs, 7 I think, received EU Life funding for restoration and they are being literally destroyed. The blatant abuse of the law is awful but the view of the wanton illegal destruction is shocking.

robp

This is an image from the report that was just mentioned by Joela. Its an example of a bog too damaged to earn legal protection but it is the fate of the protected raised bogs until there is law enforcement.

Icepick

This was discussed on today's radio and prosecutions are going ahead.

cursai

Nothing like a good turf to warm the socks. Knowing all.the hard work paid off.

joela

cursai wrote: »

Nothing like a good turf to warm the socks. Knowing all.the hard work paid off.

So it can be damaged and eventually destroyed like the one pictured here?

cursai

joela wrote: »

So it can be damaged and eventually destroyed like the one pictured here?

Looks grand scenic to me. Maybe there is damage to the but sure its grossly less damaging than oil Wells and the damage they cause to their local area. But sure we can't see that with our own eyes and only those foreigners have to deal with.
People would be better off spending their energy on using less oil and even gas. than to be trampling on fuel worked off the land by decent people.
And no I don't think that argument that most turf cutters are companies and not private individuals. this is the kind of statement from people who haven't spend their summers working at bogs.
Altogether its better than bord ma Mona monopolising the practice for their own profit. And anybody who says they don't damage the big or only take from healthy bogs again haven't set foot on a big or worked in the areas.

antoobrien

joela wrote: »

So it can be damaged and eventually destroyed like the one pictured here?

Maybe you should take a train ride between Galway and Dublin twice a year and see the "damage" that bord na mona have done throughout the bog of allen (a raised bog). That grows back, so you'll realize that the people claiming utter destruction are talking through their rears.

IrishHomer

antoobrien wrote: »

joela wrote: »

So it can be damaged and eventually destroyed like the one pictured here?

Maybe you should take a train ride between Galway and Dublin twice a year and see the "damage" that bord na mona have done throughout the bog of allen (a raised bog). That grows back, so you'll realize that the people claiming utter destruction are talking through their rears.

Eh its utter destruction of the last remaining relatively ecologically intact bogs

antoobrien

IrishHomer wrote: »

Eh its utter destruction of the last remaining relatively ecologically intact bogs

Not really, we're talking about a couple of thousand acres of bogs. There are still hundreds of thousands of acres of bogland in ireland that are "ecologically intact".

Can somebody explain what's so special about the raised bogs anyways?

jmayo

MadsL wrote: »

So, not content wth destroying the environment, these gobsh1te are costing the state further 1000s of euro. I'm all for enforcement, but where are the prosecutions?

Also why don't they use drones for this - surely cheaper.

First off I hate when people call it bog cutting it is Turf Cutting.
Secondly drones are expensive toys that the likes of the Americans use to wipe out people they don't like.
It is way cheaper to send up someone in a Cessna and get them to fly around for an hour or two.

joela wrote: »

So it can be damaged and eventually destroyed like the one pictured here?

You do know that a fair chunk of our farmland is already what is termed reclaimed bog.

IrishHomer

antoobrien wrote: »

Not really, we're talking about a couple of thousand acres of bogs. There are still hundreds of thousands of acres of bogland in ireland that are "ecologically intact".

Can somebody explain what's so special about the raised bogs anyways?

A bog that is most common around Ireland is a man modified one as they are massively exploited for hundreds of years by drainage and in recent decades massive destruction due to new machinery/technology advances.

A raised bog that is worthy of conserving is a wetland so it is basically an ancient lake that still retains a lot of the old rased bog plant/animal communities and also has some (not all) of its unique hydrological features.

A relatively intact raised bog acts like a massive sponge it can retain water which can be handy for our tropical rainfall of recent times as it slows down the rate of rainwater ending up in streams and rivers too quickly, take away the bog and the rivers fill up and floods appear quicker. Not to mention the destruction of the river beds from peat silt accumulating killing off all the fish eggs this is main reason Salmon are so rare in parts as well as other species such as the Pearl Mussels.

Wetland birds are under immense pressure declining since the drying out and destruction of the bogs for birds such as the Curlew, Redshank, Merlin, Hen Harrier, Snipe, Whimbrel etc.

So its a similar scenario to Brazils rainforests and its all down to our ignorance and for having no appreciating for our natural environment. Its shamefull and downright embarrassing having the yob up in the Dail mouthing on every week about retaining his right to destroy the bogs. He always employs its minimal damage but he thinks the general public he preaches to are fools (maybe we are )

axel7

Turf is still the primary energy and heat source in rural Ireland, many homes have changed (in last 2-3 years) from electricity/oil to solid fuel, old-style ranges, simply because of costs of the former rising at an exponential rate. They can no longer afford it, turf cutting is not a hobby but rather a necessity. Some people on this forum are so far removed from this fact that you'd have to question whether they have any knowledge of how rural Ireland works. Please do not comment on this issue until you've a good understanding of how rural Ireland functions, and the necessities if its people.

antoobrien

IrishHomer wrote: »

A raised bog that is worthy of conserving is a wetland so it is basically an ancient lake that still retains a lot of the old rased bog plant/animal communities and also has some (not all) of its unique hydrological features.

A relatively intact raised bog acts like a massive sponge it can retain water which can be handy for our tropical rainfall of recent times as it slows down the rate of rainwater ending up in streams and rivers too quickly, take away the bog and the rivers fill up and floods appear quicker. Not to mention the destruction of the river beds from peat silt accumulating killing off all the fish eggs this is main reason Salmon are so rare in parts as well as other species such as the Pearl Mussels.

I'm very well aware of what a bog is, having saved turf on occasion. I don't know what the hell is so important about a raised bog.

By your description - there is no difference between a "raised" bog and a "normal" bog (apart from altitude implied in the name - I don't know if that is infact the case).

FYI there is no general turf cutting ban (which from your description above you seem to believe) but on a small number of raised bogs, disproportionately affecting the west of Ireland (Galway & Roscommon in particular).

Conguill

I am really sick of hearing about rural Ireland and about how anyone not from rural Ireland should mind their own business.

80% of farmer incomes comes from subsidies, rural Ireland has a better per capita representation in the Dáil than urban constituencies and rural Ireland gets a disporportionate level (relative to population) of exchequer spending. This is besides the point that a huge proportion of rural Ireland is not involved in farming or fishing but living in the countryside (extended suburbia really) and commuting.

The protected bogs are a valuable resource both as a wildlife habitat and as a carbon sink. The fact that somebody's grandfather cut fuel from one particular source does not excuse the current generation destroying this resource forever.

Additionally, these bogs are subject to EU legislation and thus the Irish government can be fined and that means less government money on the things that you and me and every other resident (urban and rural) need.

antoobrien

Conguill wrote: »

I am really sick of hearing about rural Ireland and about how anyone not from rural Ireland should mind their own business.

80% of farmer incomes comes from subsidies, rural Ireland has a better per capita representation in the Dáil than urban constituencies and rural Ireland gets a disporportionate level (relative to population) of exchequer spending. This is besides the point that a huge proportion of rural Ireland is not involved in farming or fishing but living in the countryside (extended suburbia really) and commuting.

The protected bogs are a valuable resource both as a wildlife habitat and as a carbon sink. The fact that somebody's grandfather cut fuel from one particular source does not excuse the current generation destroying this resource forever.

Additionally, these bogs are subject to EU legislation and thus the Irish government can be fined and that means less government money on the things that you and me and every other resident (urban and rural) need.

I'm heartily sick of rubbish like this - if you want it protected talk to the people that know how best to protect it - the people that actually use it, not deskbound pen pushers that have never been to a bog (or worse the anti rural an taisce).

The EU law is about conservation of the bogs, that's not the same thing as stopping turf from being cut (which you'd know if you'd ever been to a bog that is cultivated).

axel7

Conguill wrote: »

I am really sick of hearing about rural Ireland and about how anyone not from rural Ireland should mind their own business.

80% of farmer incomes comes from subsidies, rural Ireland has a better per capita representation in the Dáil than urban constituencies and rural Ireland gets a disporportionate level (relative to population) of exchequer spending. This is besides the point that a huge proportion of rural Ireland is not involved in farming or fishing but living in the countryside (extended suburbia really) and commuting.

The protected bogs are a valuable resource both as a wildlife habitat and as a carbon sink. The fact that somebody's grandfather cut fuel from one particular source does not excuse the current generation destroying this resource forever.

Additionally, these bogs are subject to EU legislation and thus the Irish government can be fined and that means less government money on the things that you and me and every other resident (urban and rural) need.

And what would happen if subsidies were not given to farmers? People would be strangled with the cost of food. Food prices would go through the roof. Farmers wouldn't settle for an 80% drop in profits, no business would. It's not as if you can decide to go without food for the week or just have it on special occasions. Any ways this is a different issue.

Who mentioned farming? The houses each side of me don't have any land. The two across the road don't farm. They all rely on turf to provide a basic necessity. What are the alternatives for these people, as I've said there's anecdotal evidence in my area, and I'm sure other's, of homes removing electrical and oil heating appliances in favour of solid-based turf systems because they can't deal with the rising costs.

Trees also act as carbon sinks, with acreage under plantation rising the whole time surely this can supplement, and in the long-term, replace the need for bogs to carry out carbon extraction.