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Illegal Bog-cutting, no enforcement.

MadsL

It seems that environmental legislation counts for very little when confronted with sheer greed. 9 out of 53 protected bogs in Ireland are being irreparably damaged by continuing illegal extraction.

An Taisce press release.

“Taoiseach asked to stand over his promise on protected bogs”

Environmental organisations, An Taisce and Friends of the Irish Environment, have asked the Taoiseach to stand over his promise to defend bogs protected under law.

Peat is now being illegally extracted on 9 of the 53 protected bogs in spite of the Taoiseach's pledge that the law would be upheld.

We are asking the Taoiseach to prove he was, and is, sincere in his pledge to uphold the law.

“Because the law is not being enforced, turf contractors are being emboldened. Starting with unlawful cutting on one or two protected bogs, the situation quickly rose to 9, and without a commitment to uphold the law, the situation could spiral out of control”, the environmental organisations have warned, saying the Government's peatland protection programme risks being shredded unless the Taoiseach acts quickly and firmly.

Fines from Europe are becoming inevitable as breaches of European law are at issue. These fines will be paid for by the country not the illegal turfcutters and unless action is taken, Ireland risks losing the goodwill of member states such as the Netherlands and Germany for an apparent couldn't-care-less attitude on this issue.

The environmental organisations have eyewitness reports of members of An Garda Siochana laughing and joking as they apparently stand by watching the law being broken. While the organisations are not willing to release their sources, they say they have received too many such reports to be in any doubt about their authenticity.

Those breaking the law face no sanctions apparently, note An Taisce and FoIE, saying that it does not seem that names are being recorded with a view to prosecutions. No turf-cutting machines are being seized - in fact, there appear to be no consequences whatsoever - and all this in spite of new legislation which the Government announced was enacted specifically to cope with illegal extraction on what is around 2 per cent of Ireland's peatland.

An Taisce and FoIE also note that a home insulation and energy enhancement programme was to be offered to turfcutters - but there has been a wholesale lack of progress on this issue over the past 6 months, despite promises in the intervening period that lost ground would be recovered.

A decision was made in September 2011 to offer a home insulation / energy package to households, and this programme offers by far the best solution to the turf-cutting impasse when economic, environmental and social considerations are weighed together.

The problem seems to be resources. In spite of the millions upon millions now being talked about for annual compensation payments, there appears to be no resources for home insulation / energy enhancement. There is a hopeless mismatch between what the Government says it wants to do and how it is deploying resources.

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Nidot

I can hardly say that I'm surprised. The law was brought because of an EU directive. It was not brought in with consultation of the stake-holders (i.e. the turf cutters) who have accepted payment in order to desist from this activity but have not bee given any incentive to actually stop the cutting of turf.

If the government actually thought that paying-off a selection of people and getting them to promise they wouldn't continue to cut turf was really going to work then whoever was negotiating on the government behalf must of been the most naiive Irish person alive (possibly the same person in the room when the bank guarantee was given who questionned the banks about their liquidity).

MadsL

Nidot wrote: »

I can hardly say that I'm surprised. The law was brought because of an EU directive. It was not brought in with consultation of the stake-holders (i.e. the turf cutters) who have accepted payment in order to desist from this activity but have not bee given any incentive to actually stop the cutting of turf.

If the government actually thought that paying-off a selection of people and getting them to promise they wouldn't continue to cut turf was really going to work then whoever was negotiating on the government behalf must of been the most naiive Irish person alive (possibly the same person in the room when the bank guarantee was given who questionned the banks about their liquidity).

I notice 3/4 of the 'turfcutters' wanted the payment, not alternative cutting rights elsewhere. I'd love to know the number of 'active' turf-cutters; probably a handful of the 1400 people registered for the payment. For active turfcutters this is a business, not a tradition.

View

Nidot wrote: »

I can hardly say that I'm surprised. The law was brought because of an EU directive. It was not brought in with consultation of the stake-holders (i.e. the turf cutters) who have accepted payment in order to desist from this activity but have not bee given any incentive to actually stop the cutting of turf.

Three points:

1) The EU Directive was agreed to by Ireland,
2) The relevant bogs were designated by our government based on scientific advice not by the EU.
3) Paying someone IS an incentive to stop doing something.

MadsL

accepted payment in order to desist from this activity but have not bee given any incentive to actually stop the cutting of turf.

How morally corrupt can you get?

1. Be shown through scientific evidence that turf-cutting damages a valuable ecologically resource, and a rare one at that. Also be shown that bogs are carbon-sinks, absorbing CO2 and helping counter-balance climate change.

2. Not care, citing sepia toned prints of old fellas footing turf, and getting onto the local TD. Whine about rights.

3. Take a payment to stop the practice.

4. Carry on anyway.

Sickening. Full powers of the law should come to bear on these parasites.

lmimmfn

I disagree with the whole thing anyway, just another plan to have everyone dependent on oil/gas.

nice_guy80

people need turf to heat their homes

simple as

K-9

It's 53 bogs!

MadsL

nice_guy80 wrote: »

people need turf to heat their homes

simple as

Sorry, but bollix. This isn't about briquettes from Bord Na Mona, this is a bunch of gob****es tearing up protected bogs (2 per cent of Ireland's peatland) with machines and selling the turf. After taking payments and saying they will stop.

lmimmfn wrote: »

I disagree with the whole thing anyway, just another plan to have everyone dependent on oil/gas.

Would you ever bother to do a bit of reading and educate yourself as to why these bogs (just 2% of bogs) are protected.
http://www.ipcc.ie/inforaisedbogfs.html

the_syco

nice_guy80 wrote: »

people need turf to heat their homes

This is the reason why most Gardai will do sweet f**k all about people cutting up the bogs. I dare say that half of the senior Gardai in the locality of said bogs will have some sort of plot of the bog themselves, or access to one.

MadsL

Originally Posted by nice_guy80
people need turf to heat their homes

How many homes in Ireland need to cut up a protected bog rather than use packaged briquettes or coal/logs (or God forbid, electricity) to heat their homes.

This type of absolute codology will end up with the taxpayer forking out millions in fines to the EU.

Does anyone seriously swallow the guff talked about the bogs? This isn't evictions, it is simply trying to get rural Ireland to grow up and take some responsibility for their actions. Dublin and other cities banned non-smokeless coal and no-one is freezing to death iirc.

my friend

MadsL wrote: »

How many homes in Ireland need to cut up a protected bog rather than use packaged briquettes or coal/logs (or God forbid, electricity) to heat their homes

'packaged briquettes' ???

what do you think these are made from? :pac:

meglome

my friend wrote: »

'packaged briquettes' ???

what do you think these are made from? :pac:

Not from protected bogs I'd imagine.

MadsL

'packaged briquettes' ???

what do you think these are made from?

You might want to read about the different types of bog.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raised_bog#Raised_bog

The protected bogs are raised bogs, not the blanket bog that BNM package and sell.

Of course the misinformationists like Ming won't tell you that.

Pete_Cavan

nice_guy80 wrote: »

people need turf to heat their homes

simple as

Maybe in the 1950's and 60's when most people used open fires and solid fuel fired back-boiler heating systems, today the vast majority of houses have central heating systems which provide space and water heating. Most of those using turf will only use it for heating a room (i.e. an open fire or stove) and will have another source of heating for the rest of the house and the hot water. Turf has a low clarorific content and is very limited as a domestic fuel, even if turf is the primary source of heat in a house, they will still require other sources to provide hot water (most likely an electric immersion) so the idea that people "need" turf is not true.

And thats before we get into the unsustainability of harvesting a fuel which takes hundreds of years to develop, and the environmental damage caused by destroying a carbon sink, damaging an area which stores water preventing flooding of other areas and obliterating a rare habitat.

Welease

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Maybe in the 1950's and 60's when most people used open fires and solid fuel fired back-boiler heating systems, today the vast majority of houses have central heating systems which provide space and water heating. Most of those using turf will only use it for heating a room (i.e. an open fire or stove) and will have another source of heating for the rest of the house and the hot water. Turf has a low clarorific content and is very limited as a domestic fuel, even if turf is the primary source of heat in a house, they will still require other sources to provide hot water (most likely an electric immersion) so the idea that people "need" turf is not true.

And thats before we get into the unsustainability of harvesting a fuel which takes hundreds of years to develop, and the environmental damage caused by destroying a carbon sink, damaging an area which stores water preventing flooding of other areas and obliterating a rare habitat.

You would be surpised at home many people still use it as a primary heat source for both heating and water in their houses.. each and everyone of my neighbours does (Kildare). Drive through the countryside and look at the amount of people with large turf sheds will testify to that. One of the primary reasons is cost, we have just put in a new Stanley oven burner (at a cost of over €5k) because it costs about 1/3 to heat our house compared to using our oil based system while providing better heat throughout the day (as we can keep the system running all day).

However, as previously said there are enough non protected bogs which should be able to provide this fuel source, people don't need to cut into the protected bogs especially when it's a small percentage of overall usable bog..

Much like a lot of issues in Ireland, this comes down to enforcement (or lack of) of rules that are already in place..

MadsL

Welease wrote: »

this comes down to enforcement (or lack of) of rules that are already in place..

Sorry, but this comes down to sheer moral fibre. You accept a payment to stop doing something (make a promise) and then do it anyway, knowing that other people (the taxpayer) will get fined for your behaviour.

More moral integrity in a slug.

Electricity, oil, prepackaged turf, wood logs, wood pellets, coal and gas are all alternatives and easily accessed or converted.

the_syco

MadsL wrote: »

Dublin and other cities banned non-smokeless coal and no-one is freezing to death iirc.

Never knew people mined coal for home use...

Welease wrote: »

However, as previously said there are enough non protected bogs which should be able to provide this fuel source

Unfortunately, it's down to what people have been using for the past 100 years. A plot that my grandfather used was passed down to an uncle, and so forth.

The latter point is also very important, as (and I stand to be corrected) partitioned off to people living in a radius of said bog, so I wonder how people not near said bog can access it to cut turf, as to do so would be cutting turf from someone elses plot.

MadsL

the_syco wrote: »

Unfortunately, it's down to what people have been using for the past 100 years. A plot that my grandfather used was passed down to an uncle, and so forth.

The latter point is also very important, as (and I stand to be corrected) partitioned off to people living in a radius of said bog, so I wonder how people not near said bog can access it to cut turf, as to do so would be cutting turf from someone elses plot.

And there is the complete con, machines are cutting what used to be individuals footing turf, and cutting large sections of bog. It may be shared, but these machine-owners are making money at it.

If I tell you my grandfather used to train pitbulls to fight for sport, does that give me rights to do the same?

Welease

MadsL wrote: »

Sorry, but this comes down to sheer moral fibre. You accept a payment to stop doing something (make a promise) and then do it anyway, knowing that other people (the taxpayer) will get fined for your behaviour.

More moral integrity in a slug..

Welcome to real life.. It could be argued that the vast majority of people don't have the perfect moral charachter you seek.. Pay less tax than you should, break the speed limit in a car, fail to clean up some litter. etc. All moral/legal failings to various degrees, and thats why agencies exist to deal with these transgressions.
If (or when) it becomes a big enough issue the relevant authorities will do something about it and stop it in a heartbeat.. If you waiting for these "moral slugs" to see the light then you are likely in for a long wait. I don't condone them cutting protected bogs, but I doubt they will suddenly see the light and stop without any intervention from state agencies.

MadsL wrote: »

Electricity, oil, prepackaged turf, wood logs, wood pellets, coal and gas are all alternatives and easily accessed or converted.

Why would I need to convert across? 98% of the bogs are legally harvested and people purchase fuel from there. As for why people want to stay with peat, well in my case (and the case of the bulk of my neighbours) it offers the best legal solution regarding output vs cost (about 1/3 the cost of oil).

MadsL

Welease wrote: »

Welcome to real life.. It could be argued that the vast majority of people don't have the perfect moral charachter you seek.. Pay less tax than you should, break the speed limit in a car, fail to clean up some litter. etc. All moral/legal failings to various degrees, and thats why agencies exist to deal with these transgressions.
If (or when) it becomes a big enough issue the relevant authorities will do something about it and stop it in a heartbeat.. If you waiting for these "moral slugs" to see the light then you are likely in for a long wait. I don't condone them cutting protected bogs, but I doubt they will suddenly see the light and stop without any intervention from state agencies.

I am a realist and do believe in enforcement. However there is something particularly odious about us making a payment to these people and them pocketing the money and carrying on regardless. It feels rather treacherous and unpatriotic to me. That's why environmental groups are calling for enforcement. If it were up to me, I think fraud charges would be in order.

Why would I need to convert across? 98% of the bogs are legally harvested and people purchase fuel from there. As for why people want to stay with peat, well in my case (and the case of the bulk of my neighbours) it offers the best legal solution regarding output vs cost (about 1/3 the cost of oil).

I included prepackaged turf in my list. If it comes from a legal source, grand (well, as grand as an unsustainable fossil fuel gets)

MadsL

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0521/1224316456680.html

PRIVATE AIRCRAFT contractors are being hired by the State to work alongside the Defence Forces in gathering evidence against illegal turfcutters.

A total of 10 separate flights have been flown by a private company over boglands this year costing €13,148 with more flights expected over the coming month.

So, not content wth destroying the environment, these gobsh1te are costing the state further 1000s of euro. I'm all for enforcement, but where are the prosecutions?

Also why don't they use drones for this - surely cheaper.

Turfcutters who stop cutting on affected bogs are entitled to a concession worth €23,000, spread over 15 years, with an initial once-off payment of €500.

€1500 a year for the next 15 years! Given you can get bales of briquettes for about 2.50 by buying in bulk that's 600 bales a year, or buying in bulk about 10 tons of loose briquette. Jesus, that's one warm house.

Independent TD Luke Flanagan, a spokesman for the Turf Cutters and Contractors Association, said that the surveillance of bogs was a poor use of public funds. “I think it is a complete and utter waste of money, turfcutters aren’t exactly going around murdering people.

A response worthy of a twelve year old, how is this man a TD?. I used to like him, he just sickens me now. "well, huh, nobody died" - no, but they are shafting the Irish taxpayer you are supposed to be representing. Absolute moral cowardice and popularism of the worst kind.

goose2005

MadsL wrote: »

Also why don't they use drones for this - surely cheaper.

Not likely. €1,300 for a flight is bargain-basement as it is.

MadsL

TD Luke Flanagan has continued to defend his comments likening the cutting of turf on raised bogs to the resistance movement against the Nazis. Yesterday, he likened the turfcutters’ plight to that of black civil rights hero, Rosa Parks.

Yesterday, on Shannonside Radio, he used Parks as another example to explain why law breaking should sometimes take place.

"There are occasions that during the tyranny of the state that the law needs to be broken. I could have used Rosa Parks, refusing to sit at the back of a bus, as an example of where the law got it wrong," he said.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/nine-of-53-protected-bogs-being-cut-illegally-194704.html

Jesus Christ, how stoned was Flanagan when he did this interview. Turfcutters being discriminated against like Blacks in 50s America are they? What an absolute joke.

MadsL

Galway turfcutters claim they are being intimidated by low flying aircraft that are checking to see if the turf cutting ban is being adhered to.

Up to 50 turfcutters gathered in protest in Loughrea last evening [May 22] where the European Affairs Minister was officiated at a meeting.

Minister Lucinda Creighton was addressing a public meeting and Q&A session on the upcoming referendum on the European Fiscal Treaty.

The group has now cut turf in Barroughter, Ardraigue and Killimor raised boglands and began working on Clonmoylan at the weekend.

Speaking to Galway Bay FM news, Dermot Moran of the local bogs action group says
turfcutters asked the Minister to intervene against the EU ban

http://www.galwaynews.ie/25946-galway-turfcutters-protest-loughrea-treaty-meeting

Can someone clarify that these guys have accepted payments?

Apparently, enforcement of the law is 'intimidation'. In which case should we lobby to take Gardai off the streets?

Tora Bora

goose2005 wrote: »

Not likely. €1,300 for a flight is bargain-basement as it is.

Yearra, sure whats a few million here, when at the end of the day all those criminals cutting a few barrow loads of turf, can be caught and the full rigour of the law applied to them:cool:
I mean it's not as if, we need the money for any other higher priority cause, like hospital waiting times etc,.
No not at all, ............ let the peasants line up in the hospital corridors, while the state focuses it's attention on the bog cutters of Ireland.

Nody

Tora Bora wrote: »

Yearra, sure whats a few million here, when at the end of the day all those criminals cutting a few barrow loads of turf, can be caught and the full rigour of the law applied to them:cool:
I mean it's not as if, we need the money for any other higher priority cause, like hospital waiting times etc,.
No not at all, ............ let the peasants line up in the hospital corridors, while the state focuses it's attention on the bog cutters of Ireland.

Seeing how they are paid 23k per head to stop cutting turf spending 1.6k to catch them doing it seems like a good deal to me; stop the payment, fine them and you've got a nice saving right there and then...

Tora Bora

Nody wrote: »

Seeing how they are paid 23k per head to stop cutting turf spending 1.6k to catch them doing it seems like a good deal to me; stop the payment, fine them and you've got a nice saving right there and then...

Don't pay them the €23k. Don't spend another €1.6k trying to catch them cutting afterwards.
That's €24.6k saved right there. Now move on them there trollies, with the sick and wounded on them;)
Meanwhile them hardy boys are out there cutting turf, reducing imports of oil, helping the balance of payments:cool:
They are also getting good cardiovascular excercise ........... cutting down even more on hospital demands:P
WIN, WIN, WIN .....................

MadsL

Tora Bora wrote: »

Yearra, sure whats a few million here, when at the end of the day all those criminals cutting a few barrow loads of turf, can be caught and the full rigour of the law applied to them:cool:
I mean it's not as if, we need the money for any other higher priority cause, like hospital waiting times etc,.
No not at all, ............ let the peasants line up in the hospital corridors, while the state focuses it's attention on the bog cutters of Ireland.

You sound like Ming, yada yada nobody died. Whataboutery gets us nowhere.

As there are such pressing other issues like hospital waiting times then lets stop enforcing all laws that carry less than six months in prison and focus all the energies there. Then in 12 months time you can come back here and complain that road deaths are through the roof and what about it.

These 'bog-cutters' of Ireland are destroying protected habitats that make up less than 1% of the bogs in Ireland. They are also taking your money and laughing in your face; if they continue, they will cost you even more in EU fines.

Environmental protection legislation cannot be negotiated away in Europe, there are specific clauses that do not allow local custom to take precedent over EU law. This "negotiate with the European bullies" is a complete red herring, and is just a ploy to appear hard done by.

MadsL

Tora Bora wrote: »

Don't pay them the €23k. Don't spend another €1.6k trying to catch them cutting afterwards.
That's €24.6k saved right there. Now move on them there trollies, with the sick and wounded on them;)
Meanwhile them hardy boys are out there cutting turf, reducing imports of oil, helping the balance of payments:cool:
They are also getting good cardiovascular excercise ........... cutting down even more on hospital demands:P
WIN, WIN, WIN .....................

And **** on their doorstep. An Irish solution?

As to good cardiovascular excercise, how much good cardiovascular excercise does it take to drive a JCB?

You have swallowed the "aul'wans footin' a bit o'turf" line again...

Atilathehun

MadsL wrote: »

Tora Bora wrote: »

Yearra, sure whats a few million here, when at the end of the day all those criminals cutting a few barrow loads of turf, can be caught and the full rigour of the law applied to them:cool:
I mean it's not as if, we need the money for any other higher priority cause, like hospital waiting times etc,.
No not at all, ............ let the peasants line up in the hospital corridors, while the state focuses it's attention on the bog cutters of Ireland.

You sound like Ming, yada yada nobody died. Whataboutery gets us nowhere.

As there are such pressing other issues like hospital waiting times then lets stop enforcing all laws that carry less than six months in prison and focus all the energies there. Then in 12 months time you can come back here and complain that road deaths are through the roof and what about it.

These 'bog-cutters' of Ireland are destroying protected habitats that make up less than 1% of the bogs in Ireland. They are also taking your money and laughing in your face; if they continue, they will cost you even more in EU fines.

Environmental protection legislation cannot be negotiated away in Europe, there are specific clauses that do not allow local custom to take precedent over EU law. This "negotiate with the European bullies" is a complete red herring, and is just a ploy to appear hard done by.

But the plain people of Ireland told the greens to shin back up their tree at the last election. The bicycle clips, won't have a say in creating legislation in this country for years to come, thankfully.
Stop cutting turf my arse, and haul oil in from the gulf of Arabia instead. Meanwhile back at the ranch, keep the protest going on at the Shell site in Mayo.
Talk about too many eejits with far too little to do!!!