Illegal Bog-cutting, no enforcement.

Uriel.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Exactly what it is. The NPWS (Dúchas then) notified a load of SACs including mine to the EU around 12-15 years ago and told the EU A "Management Plan" was "in preparation" or would be drawn up.

Then they thought they could bully people into stopping lots of activities without going to the trouble of preparing management plans, that worked to an extent until it stopped working....and then they belatedly realised they should prepare management plans ( once the road schemes ran out and the lads wanted consultancy gigs ).......shouldn't they.

Absent the management plan there is no framework to manage a managed SAC and no framework within which a management agreement with an individual landowner in that SAC should do their bit within the overall Management matrix.

Altogether an administrative farce of the highest order. I just kept cutting and never asked for any consent off anyone...and I never asked for compensation either.

You have yet to provide a shred of evidence that supports your claim that the Minister has to introduce a management plan in order to restrict activities. It is not there in the Directive and it is not there in the transposing legislation.

You have been shown this by a number of people citing the legislation.

Sponge Bob

You have posted nothing at all on the function of a management plan and I had to drag links out of you for a lot of your sources where I referenced mine unprompted.

You will have to forgive me for being amused at your last post.

Sponge Bob

Uriel. wrote: »

And for other areas, potentially including areas under 10ha see Regulation 31 of the 2011 Regs.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0477.html

S31 obviously refers to strategic infrastructure and infrastructure type developments not to family bogs. Inferring it Somehow applies to domestic turf cutters is unfounded and wrong.

Please withdraw that inference.

Uriel.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Uriel. wrote: »

And for other areas, potentially including areas under 10ha see Regulation 31 of the 2011 Regs.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0477.html

S31 obviously refers to strategic infrastructure and infrastructure type developments not to family bogs. Inferring it Somehow applies to domestic turf cutters is unfounded and wrong.

Please withdraw that inference.

LOL

Sorry I won't be withdrawing anything.
Can you show me how s31 obviously relates to strategic infrastructure or infrastructure type developments. It doesn't mention that anywhere in the Regs.

Of course if you can prove otherwise you'll be posting a link and source won't you?

I find your approach to this thread very strange. In some cases you see text that no one else can see and in other cases you fail to read text that everyone else can see. Very strange indeed.

One scenario for potentially requiring planning permission in this instance would be the Minister judging an in combo effect on on the site affecting an area of more than 10ha eg multiple cutters requesting consent to cut turf and the impact of the. Associated drainage. Minister screens for appropriate assessments and feels that An Bord Pleanala needs to make a determination. The Bord decides that an appropriate assessment is required and so exempted development status is lost and planning is required.

Uriel.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

You have posted nothing at all on the function of a management plan and I had to drag links out of you for a lot of your sources where I referenced mine unprompted.

You will have to forgive me for being amused at your last post.

A management plan is largely irrelevant to the purpose of this thread which is about illegal turf cutting. As has been cited by a number of people a management plan existing or not does not negate the requirement for consent to cut turf in these 53sites. It also does not negate the fact that cutting without the consent is an unauthorised action.

In a bigger picture, do I think SACs should have management plans.... Yeah I think long term it is a good idea and hopefully in time we'll get to that point.. But for now the law remains in respect turf cutting in these sites

joela

Sponge Bob you miss the other legislation which also applies to the turf cutters.

Those who cut turf illegally this year are also liable under the Environmental Liabilities Directive which was transposed into Irish law http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0307.html Please note that ELD is not limited to Natura 2000 sites, Habitats & Species listed in the Annexes of the Habitats Directive are protected from damage outside of Natura 2000 sites under this piece of legislation.

Sponge Bob

Uriel. wrote: »

LOL

Sorry I won't be withdrawing anything.
Can you show me how s31 obviously relates to strategic infrastructure or infrastructure type developments. It doesn't mention that anywhere in the Regs.

Well it does so go off and read it again properly.

joela wrote: »

Sponge Bob you miss the other legislation which also applies to the turf cutters.

Those who cut turf illegally this year are also liable under the Environmental Liabilities Directive which was transposed into Irish law http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0307.html Please note that ELD is not limited to Natura 2000 sites, Habitats & Species listed in the Annexes of the Habitats Directive are protected from damage outside of Natura 2000 sites under this piece of legislation.

Yes that is true Joela and the collective environmental liabilities regulations 2008 to 2011 can be used to protect Annex 1 Biome and Speciation ex geographic designation and management ...lest you think I don't know the jargon.

I would observe however that your link is to a GEOLOGICAL Carbon Sequestration amendment and that a bog is a BIOLOGICAL Carbon Sequestration mechanism.

The regulations do not apply to cutaway blanket bog where the bulk of the cutting was completed many years ago. There is no Annexed Restoration Objective for blanket bog where there is for certain raised bog ...you should know that. Consequently and as the key 'damage' is 30 years old already Environmental Liability does not apply to my bit of Blanket Bog. Sorry.

It could apply were I to start draining a new set of cutting stripes or at least I believe it could.

Pete_Cavan

Sponge Bob wrote: »

You have posted nothing at all on the function of a management plan and I had to drag links out of you for a lot of your sources where I referenced mine unprompted.

You will have to forgive me for being amused at your last post.

Perhaps you could provide a link or some evidence to support your claim that site specific Management Plans are required for the designation of SACs because Article 6(1) of the Habitates Directive does not impose this. MANAGING NATURA 2000 SITES The provisions of Article 6 of the ‘Habitats’ Directive 92/43/EEC, the documnet intended to facilitate the interpretation of Article 6, in section 2.4.What form can the necessary conservation measures take?, states;

2.4.1. Management plans
The necessary conservation measures can involve ‘if need be, appropriate management plans specifically designed for the sites or integrated into other development plans’. Such management plans should address all foreseen activities, unforeseen new activities being dealt with by Article 6(3) and (4).
The words ‘if need be’ indicate that management plans may not always be necessary.

It is obvious that management plans are not required and therefore are irrelevant to this thread. Now perhaps you can provide some real evidence to support your claims because Article 6(1) clearly isnt it.

Sponge Bob

Because the NPWS Said they Would in 1997, eg. Barroughter Bog.

http://www.npws.ie/media/npwsie/content/images/protectedsites/natura2000/NF000231.pdf

SITE MANAGEMENT AND PLANS
Plans in preparation.

Uriel.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Well it does so go off and read it again properly.

Now now, if you are going to proclaim something you have to back it up - show me the part of the Regs or P&D Regs that proves what you are saying.

Yes that is true Joela and the collective environmental liabilities regulations 2008 to 2011 can be used to protect Annex 1 Biome and Speciation ex geographic designation and management ...lest you think I don't know the jargon.

I would observe however that your link is to a GEOLOGICAL Carbon Sequestration amendment and that a bog is a BIOLOGICAL Carbon Sequestration mechanism.

The regulations do not apply to cutaway blanket bog where the bulk of the cutting was completed many years ago. There is no Annexed Restoration Objective for blanket bog where there is for certain raised bog ...you should know that. Consequently and as the key 'damage' is 30 years old already Environmental Liability does not apply to my bit of Blanket Bog. Sorry.

It could apply were I to start draining a new set of cutting stripes or at least I believe it could.

you have a lot interpretations for yourself but you don't back it up with an awful lot

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

OK, this has just turned into the same people sniping at and reporting each other. For sanity's sake, let's just end this here.