Hatred of the defence forces.

IRISHREDSTAR

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Hang on, you think we need to scrap the army but that someone needs to be kept up for shows and marching. Because those are really important, right? Ever served in any army yourself then?

I Don't think shows and marches are important as such, but they could be done by a free grouping something like the fca, we have a garda band so they could change their uniform for when we have vip visits. "Ever served in any army yourself then?" the Irish Army is not an army now is it. And I think the word serve in the context of the Irish pretend army is a bit silly the only person serving in the Irish gombeen army is the cook. We have no need for it. It's a wasted of money can they not all go home a play at army boys on the playstation and save they state a billion a year.

It wasn't me!

IRISHREDSTAR wrote: »

I Don't think shows and marches are important as such, but they could be done by a free grouping something like the fca, we have a garda band so they could change their uniform for when we have vip visits. "Ever served in any army yourself then?" the Irish Army is not an army now is it. And I think the word serve in the context of the Irish pretend army is a bit silly the only person serving in the Irish gombeen army is the cook. We have no need for it. It's a wasted of money can they not all go home a play at army boys on the playstation and save they state a billion a year.

Your opinion would be more useful if your perspective had some firm foundation. I'll refer you to the word "any" in my previous post. If you've served somewhere, that'll mean something different than if you haven't. Your definition of an army and service would also be useful, since you seem pretty confident that the Irish Army aren't one and don't do the other. Any basis for that?

IRISHREDSTAR

They should use this as there recruitment ad , better pay than armies that get shot at, cheap drink, hoildays in the sun, best of earmuffs provided free. come join the 8,500 having fun with guns, " defending the Irish state against armed aggression" from load noise

Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr. taxpayer?

It wasn't me!

IRISHREDSTAR wrote: »

They should use this as there recruitment ad , better pay than armies that get shot at, cheap drink, hoildays in the sun, best of earmuffs provided free.

Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mr. taxpayer?

Ditch the stupid fooking picture. It's not clever and it's a poor way of avoiding making an argument. Define an army. Define service. Contrast this with a factual analysis of what the Irish Army does and I'll pay attention. Until then, you haven't demonstrated a single reason anyone should take what you say seriously.

Oh yeah, still no answer. Ever served in any army?

tac foley

It is obvious that Mr Redstar [bit of a give-away, that] actually believes that he aspires to a nation that has no need to defend itself or its interests.

To him, and similar apologists for Marxist-Leninism, I have two things to say -

1. Those two nations who firmly live in the past - a past that espouses the failed edicts of Messrs Marx and Lenin, namely Cuba and North Korea - have a vastly out-of-proportion to population military.

and

2. Those who beat their swords into plows will end up plowing for those who did not.

tac

Morpheus

Normally Id say dont feed the troll, but im so f**king angry with this sh*t right now...

I got all this from a 5 minute google...

Irish Private soldier:
4 levels of pay
22 - 25K

British Private Soldier:
7 levels of pay
17 - 35K
Many more varied benefits and duty pay allowances than Irish counterpart


Us soldier:
Not worth comparing,totally different cost of living compared to EU, huge number of ranks compared to the basic ones in the DF each on different pay scales, lots of opportunity to increase pay through many more allowances and benefits than either Irish or British forces.

Also you are comparing totally different tax systems

FCA - gone since 2005 now its RDF

RDF get paid for all courses and for "annual" training and assessments and all duties, just not for normal training nights and normal training weekends.

1Bn euros?
The DF have not had a 1Bn euro budget in years, annually its always less than a Bn. the over administrated, top heavy, micro and mis managed department of health on the other hand has a 13 - 14Bn euro budget and zero accountability.

Dept of Health
When you have had PWC come into the dept of health and have them do a study with regard to bleeding more value for money from the health department and they recommend some cutting here and there and then expanding this and that and firing him and her and then actually have a Whitepaper for Health for the next ten years, drafted for govt approval and then approved by govt, which pushes all of these changes through and result in a leaner more accountable department, only then can you compare defences budget with healths budget. I can assure you no budget in this country is more watched monitored or skimped and saved on than defences. By the way, best of luck getting around IMPACT and UNITE and the following street protests and riots that come about from that one. See the army couldnt complain, they cant be members of unions... you may need us to help the gardai and emergency service to calm the tension and rioting in the streets when this happens though, but seeing how you scrapped us im sure you have an alternative solution.

You are a troll, that much is obvious, yet your uninformed opinion is one which crops up all too much amongst a certain sizeable portion of this great countrys population. I've done some research on you and see your political leanings - you and a certain hairy tree hugger TD would get along famously - but generally you follow the same pattern on boards, you MOAN about EVERYTHING. yet not once, NOT ONCE have I seen you offer a reasonable, accountable point of view or proven argument in ANY political or social arena on the site.

You however have achieved one thing, you have succeeded as a troll, you have boiled my blood AND my head.

Yet you have also sweepingly succeeded in denigrating and defaming the soldiers of this nation, those that arrived home in body bags, those that arrived home on stretchers, both from overseas missions, missions on our own soil, in civil war and in our own domestic war on terror, those who suffer today with dibilitating injuries both physical and mental, those who still soldier and those who have retired after years of honorable service.

You are a f**king disgrace to your own nation, you are not a patriot of any sort, you want the world but wont get up off your own ar$e to do anything about it, you represent the celtic tigers era of a battery fed population who cant see past their own noses, who try to be the grey man all of their lives who suffer from occassional bouts of tourettes on threads like this, they are knuckle dragging, neanderthal, throwbacks with NO argument and NO point of view worth listening to because its usually based on fantasy and driven by possibly real world frustration that you cannot articulate into a sensible line of debate.

When you have decided to grow up and do some research and present a valid argument, I will be here waiting eagerly to respond, in a respectful manner and will listen to your view and give mine in the true spirit of debate.

I do however wager you know f*ck all about any military subjects other than the A Team or Platoon.

Prove me wrong.

In the meantime, you can at least sleep safely at night, knowing that even I, as a humble reservist, have still offered to give my life to save the likes of yours, but only as a citizen of Ireland, not because I owe you anything and it doesn't mean I have to like you. Laugh at that all you want but its what we have all volunteered to do. In todays defence forces I am surrounded by intelligent, articulate, creative, strong, selfless and patriotic individuals who for me represent the greatest team of comrades and friends I have ever had the pleasure to be a part of. They represent for me, all that is still great about this country and make it easy to ignore the likes of you so until you want to return for some reasonable debate, do us all a favour, go back under the bridge that you crawled out from and take your medication.

you have been weighed,

you have been measured,

and you have been found wanting
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72268747&postcount=1171

above all you are a hypocrite

The Irish soldiers were cool i'm feeling proud to be Irish for a change , pity about the weather, next time the queen visits maybe the people will be able to see her.
Great Day for Ireland.

and you sir, are a Troll.

Cardinal Richelieu

xflyer wrote: »

And that's the problem. It's so frustrating. Dickwads like that have no clue. But because the Irish army isn't allowed to see combat in all the recent wars and hasn't been to war since the civil war. People think they can disparage the men and women who serve.

But this ignores the reality of Irishmen who have seen war.

There is no reason to suppose that if the Irish army found themselves in combat that they would not distinguish themselves.

I've said it before, sadly the only way the Irish army will get respect from the Irish public is for them to take serious casualties in some form of conflict.

It's a strange contradiction.

Exactly and the cloak of neutrality that Ireland politicians wave about is just an excuse to not fund military forces properly. Look at the rest of the neutral European nations and most can whip Ireland ass any day because while neutral they also have learnt the hard lesson that declaring your neutral doesn't prevent you from getting dragged into war. Some have mandatory military service and most have well armed forces supported by domestic arms industry. The mandatory military service also connects the general public with the military when you have generations of families with military service experience.

whitelines

I'm actually shocked at the abuse irishredstar has been receiving. All he's saying is, why have an army unless you fight wars? Ireland doesn't, so why not spend the money on something else?

I may not agree with irishredstar, but I'll die fighting for his right to be heard.

Perhaps this forum is suffering from cliqueitis? Either that, or self interest is rearing it's ugly head.

neilled

whitelines wrote: »

I'm actually shocked at the abuse irishredstar has been receiving. All he's saying is, why have an army unless you fight wars? Ireland doesn't, so why not spend the money on something else?

I may not agree with irishredstar, but I'll die fighting for his right to be heard.

Perhaps this forum is suffering from cliqueitis? Either that, or self interest is rearing it's ugly head.

Ignorance is rearing its ugly head.

Surely we do not need to go through an explanation of the realist theory of international relations, the numerous attempts by armed paramilitary forces to operate from and challenge the legitimacy of the Irish State, the large world war which just about passed the Irish state by as well as the fundamentals of state sovereignty, in which the state has the monopoly on violence?

Military skills are something that once lost, can't be regained overnight. Look at attempts to retrain armies in failed states. Even with lots of cash, donated equipment and "advisors" it takes decades for them to function properly. Military forces for smaller states are an insurance policy - you hope you won't have to use them but they are there if you have to and in the meantime they can do other things for you, form part of the state pageantry, assist in disaster relief and crisis management, do jobs that other people won't because they're on strike. States like armies because well trained ones are the one group of state servants that can be depended on when they chips are down.

cambridge

Firstly I'll just say I'm not in the military, I don't know anyone in the military and I don't particularly care for the military.

I would postulate that some of the criticism that comes "the army's" way is due to "hollywood". Everyone, from 3 year olds to 80 year olds have an idea what an army man does. It's like every thinks they know what a Doctor does or a Police man. not many people know what a fund investor does or a insurance broker. Anyway, they is a perception, coming from tv/films/books that glamorises the military (or does the opposite). So as people have said, people think what makes an army an army is flying into enemy territory and blowing **** up.

Secondly, I would like to challenge the general sentiment of the people in the defence forces view of themselves.

If you joined the army because you are patriotic, you are a fool. I don't know where this misplaced sense of patriotism comes from, but if you like to entertain the fantasy that you defend "mother Ireland's borders" you are deluding yourself. It doesn't matter if Ireland's defence forces are tiny 100s or substantial 10000s. We would never be able to defend an invasion of any sort. If for some ridiculous reason we defaulted on all our loans, shut done trade routes and decided we didn't want to play ball with the world, we couldn't defend our land territories for more than 2 weeks never mind our sea. The reason I make this point is because someone earlier said something that if you turn all your weapons to gardening tools you'll end up being enslaved by someone with weapons. We should just accept that our military presence would be lucky to hold off an attack from Liechtenstein.

If you joined the army for money, you are a fool. While the risk of dying on duty is small it is substantial compared to other professions. The remuneration offered for the risk isn't worth it. The only way I can fathom why anyone did this is because they have historical links to the army or had nothing better going for them.

This cry babyism about unions and strikes and stuff, doesn't impress me much. Anyone that goes into the army should know what the risks and limitations are. I personally don't have a huge amount of sympathy for those that die in service, it's part of your job.

The audacity and sheer arrogance of the poster who justified 1 bm defence spending compared to 14 billion health spending is astounding. For every euro spent on the defence, I get nothing in return. Nothing. No peace of mind. Well in fairness I probably get more ATM access. Military spending should be reduced by 90%.

Whether the heath budget is mismanaged is another story. But comparing the wages you pay on doctors and nurses who have an actual job that benefits irish people with what we pay soldiers and officers who don't benefit irish people is stupid.

neilled

cambridge wrote: »

Firstly I'll just say I'm not in the military, I don't know anyone in the military and I don't particularly care for the military.

I would postulate that some of the criticism that comes "the army's" way is due to "hollywood". Everyone, from 3 year olds to 80 year olds have an idea what an army man does. It's like every thinks they know what a Doctor does or a Police man. not many people know what a fund investor does or a insurance broker. Anyway, they is a perception, coming from tv/films/books that glamorises the military (or does the opposite). So as people have said, people think what makes an army an army is flying into enemy territory and blowing **** up.

Secondly, I would like to challenge the general sentiment of the people in the defence forces view of themselves.

If you joined the army because you are patriotic, you are a fool. I don't know where this misplaced sense of patriotism comes from, but if you like to entertain the fantasy that you defend "mother Ireland's borders" you are deluding yourself. It doesn't matter if Ireland's defence forces are tiny 100s or substantial 10000s. We would never be able to defend an invasion of any sort. If for some ridiculous reason we defaulted on all our loans, shut done trade routes and decided we didn't want to play ball with the world, we couldn't defend our land territories for more than 2 weeks never mind our sea. The reason I make this point is because someone earlier said something that if you turn all your weapons to gardening tools you'll end up being enslaved by someone with weapons. We should just accept that our military presence would be lucky to hold off an attack from Liechtenstein.

If you joined the army for money, you are a fool. While the risk of dying on duty is small it is substantial compared to other professions. The remuneration offered for the risk isn't worth it. The only way I can fathom why anyone did this is because they have historical links to the army or had nothing better going for them.

This cry babyism about unions and strikes and stuff, doesn't impress me much. Anyone that goes into the army should know what the risks and limitations are. I personally don't have a huge amount of sympathy for those that die in service, it's part of your job.

The audacity and sheer arrogance of the poster who justified 1 bm defence spending compared to 14 billion health spending is astounding. For every euro spent on the defence, I get nothing in return. Nothing. No peace of mind. Well in fairness I probably get more ATM access. Military spending should be reduced by 90%.

Whether the heath budget is mismanaged is another story. But comparing the wages you pay on doctors and nurses who have an actual job that benefits irish people with what we pay soldiers and officers who don't benefit irish people is stupid.

You don't care for the military, fine, nobody asked you to. Its their job on the other hand to care for you whether you like it or not, be it winching you out of the sea, off the side of a mountain, searching for your missing relative, defusing the the improvised bomb that criminals left on your street, transporting your sick child or relative via air ambulance to london/the usa/or to a hospital in Ireland. Your lack of appreciation does not concern, the armed forces of the state have been used to sneers since their genesis almost 100 years ago, another begrudger will hardly tip the balance.

"Flying into enemy territory and blowing stuff up" is generally speaking an airforce or in ireland, Air Corps tasking. Just saying.

I'm not calling your views on those who joined and wear the uniform of whatever state they might serve right or wrong but heres another point of view articulated by Lt Col (Rtd) David Grossman

“Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident

mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin’s egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.
“Then there are the wolves,” the old war veteran said, “and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy.” Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

“Then there are sheepdogs,” he went on, “and I’m a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf.”

Let me expand on this old soldier’s excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial; that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids’ schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid’s school. Our children are dozens of times more likely to be killed, and thousands of times more likely to be seriously injured, by school violence than by school fires, but the sheep’s only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their children is just too hard, so they choose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn’t tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, “Baa.”

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

Donny5

neilled wrote: »

be it winching you out of the sea, off the side of a mountain, searching for your missing relative

SAR is a privately contracted out by the Coast Guard, because the Air Corps couldn't provide the necessary service.

cambridge

neilled wrote: »

You don't care for the military, fine, nobody asked you to. Its their job on the other hand to care for you whether you like it or not,

be it winching you out of the sea,

coast guard

off the side of a mountain

mountain search and rescue

,

searching for your missing relative,

police

defusing the the improvised bomb that criminals left on your street,

police

transporting your sick child or relative via air ambulance to london/the usa/or to a hospital in Ireland.

paramedics
[/QUOTE]

everything you've listed is the responsibility of a civilian force not a military force. Why do you need to be able to shoot a gun to do any of that?

cambridge

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

Was this not my point. The army is too small to be effective in defending this country. If anyone, ANYONE invaded our defence force would be destroyed within hours.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

cambridge wrote: »

If you joined the army because you are patriotic, you are a fool. I don't know where this misplaced sense of patriotism comes from.

What is wrong with being patriotic? I joined the army as that has always been my prefered choice. I had a keen interest in it since I was very young. I suspect this stemmed from watching tv / films of other militaries. As soon as I was old enough I joined the Reserves, then after my LC I took the leap and followed my career goal and I joined the PDF.

cambridge wrote: »

If you joined the army for money, you are a fool. While the risk of dying on duty is small it is substantial compared to other professions. The remuneration offered for the risk isn't worth it. The only way I can fathom why anyone did this is because they have historical links to the army or had nothing better going for them

I did not join the PDF to be wealthy. At the moment I have a guaranteed weekly wage which I am extremely grateful and thankful for. I may not "earn" it in your eyes but at least I am a tax paying citizen. I have no former ties to the PDF and to suggest soldiers "had nothing better going for them" is disgraceful.

cambridge wrote: »

This cry babyism about unions and strikes and stuff, doesn't impress me much. Anyone that goes into the army should know what the risks and limitations are. I personally don't have a huge amount of sympathy for those that die in service, it's part of your job

What strikes? The DF are contractually / constitutionally unable to strike. Our unions are useless and are of no benefit to us. As an organisation I would wager that we would not strike even if the opportunity was available to us.

Unfortunately we have had people die in service, they did not die so people would have sympathy for them in years to come. Many Irish men died and were wounded for carrying out extreme acts of bravery / valour in situations that would seem futile and hopeless. These men who you have no sympathy for paid the ultimate sacrifice in doing their jobs. we all accept it is an "occupational hazard" and a possible consequence of military service.

cambridge wrote: »

The audacity and sheer arrogance of the poster who justified 1 bm defence spending compared to 14 billion health spending is astounding. For every euro spent on the defence, I get nothing in return. Nothing. No peace of mind. Well in fairness I probably get more ATM access. Military spending should be reduced by 90%

Unlike other areas of state spending, the DF does not waste their budget. We have a modest budget and we spend it wisely. You are a fool suggesting we reduce it by 90%. We do a lot with very little. If anything, we need more money to be allotted to us.

We are a Defence Force not an invading military force. Ireland is a small nation with a small amount of tax paying citizens and a small amount of serving soldiers. Obviously we could not repel a full invading land / air assault from a major World superpower. However, after we are nuked, anyone left standing would give it a damn good go.

Thats why I am here, in the unlikely event that the soverignty of the state is compromised by an internal or external force. With the odds firmly stacked against me, I will gladly join the ranks of Irish soldiers that died in service so the likes of you can mock us because we are not needed in your eyes. I hope the day never comes that I need to fight on my own soil, because if it does, you are all ****ed, at least I will have a rifle.

cambridge

benwavner wrote: »

What is wrong with being patriotic? I joined the army as that has always been my prefered choice. I had a keen interest in it since I was very young. I suspect this stemmed from watching tv / films of other militaries. As soon as I was old enough I joined the Reserves, then after my LC I took the leap and followed my career goal and I joined the PDF.

It's inherently stupid. You were born in this country by fluke. Flags are just pieces of material, borders just lines on a map.

I did not join the PDF to be wealthy. At the moment I have a guaranteed weekly wage which I am extremely grateful and thankful for. I may not "earn" it in your eyes but at least I am a tax paying citizen. I have no former ties to the PDF and to suggest soldiers "had nothing better going for them" is disgraceful.

My point was the money isn't great. My suggestion isn't disgraceful, could you get a easier job for more money?

What strikes? The DF are contractually / constitutionally unable to strike. Our unions are useless and are of no benefit to us. As an organisation I would wager that we would not strike even if the opportunity was available to us

.

That was my point, army think they're great because they can't / don't strike.

Unfortunately we have had people die in service, they did not die so people would have sympathy for them in years to come. Many Irish men died and were wounded for carrying out extreme acts of bravery / valour in situations that would seem futile and hopeless. These men who you have no sympathy for paid the ultimate sacrifice in doing their jobs. we all accept it is an "occupational hazard" and a possible consequence of military service.

exactly, they got paid to do it, they signed up for it, and the risk didn't come up in their favour. If my brother joined the army and got shot I'd feel pretty annoyed he was dead because of some middle eastern war.

Unlike other areas of state spending, the DF does not waste their budget. We have a modest budget and we spend it wisely. You are a fool suggesting we reduce it by 90%. We do a lot with very little. If anything, we need more money to be allotted to us.

Why am i a fool? You do nothing that a civilian force couldn't do. We don't need it. It's not a necessary service.

We are a Defence Force not an invading military force. Ireland is a small nation with a small amount of tax paying citizens and a small amount of serving soldiers. Obviously we could not repel a full invading land / air assault from a major World superpower. However, after we are nuked, anyone left standing would give it a damn good go.

we could not defend against anyone who could mount an offence.

Thats why I am here, in the unlikely event that the soverignty of the state is compromised by an internal or external force. With the odds firmly stacked against me, I will gladly join the ranks of Irish soldiers that died in service so the likes of you can mock us because we are not needed in your eyes. I hope the day never comes that I need to fight on my own soil, because if it does, you are all ****ed, at least I will have a rifle.

fantasy heroism. romanticism. naivety. I pity you tbh, you sound like a teenager. Basically you're saying you'll be best prepared in case of a zomibe/alien apocalypse .

neilled

cambridge wrote: »

coast guard



mountain search and rescue

,

police



police



paramedics

everything you've listed is the responsibility of a civilian force not a military force. Why do you need to be able to shoot a gun to do any of that?[/QUOTE]

The reason any armed force in any country exists is to carry out violence against those whom the government of the day order it to. However, because they don't go on strike, go down with mass "flu" are generally cheaper paid and have a variety of skills that they develop from their primary role of training to dish out violence, all armies other jobs to do between serving overseas and the associated nastiness of getting shot at/blown up.

In Ireland until around a decade ago SAR was a military function, and the capability remains there, coast guards for the most part are unable to provide "top cover" which remains a military function, nor can they fly using NVGs. Mountain search and rescue are voluntary organisations who beg borrow and scrimp for their members kit and get virtually no state funding (put a donation in the box next time your in great outdoors or the outdoor adventure store). When things go wrong the the brave underfunded and definitely under appreciated volunteers can't get the job done because their numbers are to few and their limits are reached state is normally asked to help out and that normally involves deploying the chaps who are trained in survival in inhospitable terrain, long range navigation and have a variety of equipment for locating hiddenthings get called in.

Or maybe in your mind moutain rescue are fools as well, because they get no pay, give up their own time at cost to their own productivity and put themselves at risk of severe injury for others that they do not know? Oh wait, thats selflessness........

Searching for stuff is believe it or not military forces have gotten good at, indeed it was a military engineer whos ideas on search work are used by police forces today. But simply put, police firemen etc can go on strike, say "i'm not going, not my job wheres my overtime" - if someone says it in the military its mutiny. Simply put the state can rely on the job to be done, or attempted and have a variety of useful kit, techniques and a lack of an overtime bill.

The HSE doesn't have choppers, the military do. Its a civilian tasking in other countries, however in Ireland we have the situation where the Air Corps has evolved into the air arm of the state. Its in a bit of a damned if you do and damned if you don't - if it was off getting shot out of the sky/bombing people back to the stone age, people would be asking "what about our neutrality" or if they weren't doing civilian taskings "why do we have them" But in short the aircorps do their military role and many other roles that they are asked to carry out as the primary air asset of the irish state.

Bomb disposal is a primarily a military tasking. Even the RUC in the depths of the troubles didn't have a bomb disposal unit - they relied on felix teams from the british army. Equally, why does someone need to be able to go through the extensive training to become a police officer in order disable a bomb/deal with explosives? Army bomb disposal personnel generally come from the whatever national armys "Ordnance Corps" who normally are responsible for stuff that goes bang - they're the experts, they deal with explosives on a day to day basis.

neilled

cambridge wrote: »

Was this not my point. The army is too small to be effective in defending this country. If anyone, ANYONE invaded our defence force would be destroyed within hours.

Then accept that a minimum credible defence requires cold hard cash and more of it. Your alternative is the voluntary abandonment of one of basic requisites of state sovereignty.

looksee

What is it with the 'lets find someone to hate' attitude?

I seriously doubt that any member of the DF thought 'I'd like to spend my life dying for my country' when they joined. More likely they saw an opportunity to get good training, some travel and adventure and the possibility of a bit of risk and excitement to spice things up. Nothing wrong with that.

Whether the DF is necessary is not up to the individual soldier, its up to the government - the elected government that the population voted for. If there is an army and the possibility of a job why wouldn't an individual go for it.

If you go to other forums on Boards you will find people busily hating and despising teachers, council workers, medical staff etc. And some of the people doing the hating and despising will be members of the defense forces. And vice versa.

So why the aggravation? Most of the complaining tends to be about working conditions (teachers holidays, overcrowded hospitals, badly constructed roads for example) which are outside the control of the individual workers. Why expend all that energy on sniping at other groups?

As to the nonsensical heading 'hatred' of the defence forces - I am not aware of any hatred, apathy maybe, but hatred? Some specific examples would be helpful.

cambridge

No need to go through each point separably, I'll just make some general points.

You are justifying the existence of a military force because this military force is good at doing non-military jobs because there is no funding for a civilian force to do it. Does this make sense to you? The army has to fill in for mountain rescue? Why not get rid of the army, and make a proper mount rescue team? Almost everything you said can be dismissed as a rationalisation. Btw, if a search and rescue team has to and get a helicopter and find a missing mountaineer I believe the mountaineer should be sent a bill for it. If someone has to be fished out of the irish sea because their around the world expedition failed, they should be sent a bill by the coast guard. I'd go as far as saying that if you willingly into these things for recreation, you can get out on your own.

cambridge

neilled wrote: »

Then accept that a minimum credible defence requires cold hard cash and more of it. Your alternative is the voluntary abandonment of one of basic requisites of state sovereignty.

Our surface area, the size of our sea territories, we'd need 100000s of miliary people. We'd need to spend billions on tanks and jets and all that army jazz I'm sure you know much more than I. So essentially we should quit while we're behind, our army is a token gesture. Scale it back, replace it with equivalent civil ian organisations .

Praetorian Saighdiuir

cambridge wrote: »

It's inherently stupid. You were born in this country by fluke. Flags are just pieces of material, borders just lines on a map.

That is your point? thats it? Reasons not to be patriotic???? What the hell are you talking about!

cambridge wrote: »

My point was the money isn't great. My suggestion isn't disgraceful, could you get a easier job for more money?

Yes I could get an easier job for more money but why should I? I am extrememly happy with my career, not many people end up doing a job they love doing. I know guys an a hell of a lot more money than me but are miserable in their job.

cambridge wrote: »

That was my point, army think they're great because they can't / don't strike.

That is a remarkably stupid point to be making. Have you any evidence of the DF thinking they are great because they cant strike? You are better off sticking to facts instead of your closed minded opinions.

cambridge wrote: »

exactly, they got paid to do it, they signed up for it, and the risk didn't come up in their favour. If my brother joined the army and got shot I'd feel pretty annoyed he was dead because of some middle eastern war.

Yes it is part of the job.

cambridge wrote: »

Why am i a fool? You do nothing that a civilian force couldn't do. We don't need it. It's not a necessary service.

IED call outs, armed CIT, Anti terrorist roles

cambridge wrote: »

we could not defend against anyone who could mount an offence.

Yes we could, it may not last long depending on weapon systems. If the invading force was equal to our defending force. There are too many variables in this scenario.

cambridge wrote: »

fantasy heroism. romanticism. naivety. I pity you tbh, you sound like a teenager. Basically you're saying you'll be best prepared in case of a zomibe/alien apocalypse .

This is my problem with Walter Mitties. Silly, uneducated and tunnel vision opinions. There is NOTHING wrong with wanting to serve in your countries military. War waging or not war waging. There is actually no point in trying to reason with a person like you.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Ok Cambridge,

We have established that my line of work is irrelevant to you, should be disbanded and I should be on the dole.

What is your profession and is is relevant to me? Maybe I could argue about the failings or neccessity of your career choice?


...and thats all I have to say to you.

dev100

Morphéus wrote: »

Normally Id say dont feed the troll, but im so f**king angry with this sh*t right now...

I got all this from a 5 minute google...

Irish Private soldier:
4 levels of pay
22 - 25K

British Private Soldier:
7 levels of pay
17 - 35K
Many more varied benefits and duty pay allowances than Irish counterpart


Us soldier:
Not worth comparing,totally different cost of living compared to EU, huge number of ranks compared to the basic ones in the DF each on different pay scales, lots of opportunity to increase pay through many more allowances and benefits than either Irish or British forces.

Also you are comparing totally different tax systems

FCA - gone since 2005 now its RDF

RDF get paid for all courses and for "annual" training and assessments and all duties, just not for normal training nights and normal training weekends.

1Bn euros?
The DF have not had a 1Bn euro budget in years, annually its always less than a Bn. the over administrated, top heavy, micro and mis managed department of health on the other hand has a 13 - 14Bn euro budget and zero accountability.

the army couldnt complain, they cant be members of unions... you may need us to help the gardai and emergency service to calm the tension and rioting in the streets when this happens though, but seeing how you scrapped us im sure you have an alternative solution.


You however have achieved one thing, you have succeeded as a troll, you have boiled my blood AND my head.

Yet you have also sweepingly succeeded in denigrating and defaming the soldiers of this nation, those that arrived home in body bags, those that arrived home on stretchers, both from overseas missions, missions on our own soil, in civil war and in our own domestic war on terror, those who suffer today with dibilitating injuries both physical and mental, those who still soldier and those who have retired after years of honorable service.

You are a f**king disgrace to your own nation, you are not a patriot of any sort, you want the world but wont get up off your own ar$e to do anything about it, you represent the celtic tigers era of a battery fed population who cant see past their own noses, who try to be the grey man all of their lives who suffer from occassional bouts of tourettes on threads like this, they are knuckle dragging, neanderthal, throwbacks with NO argument and NO point of view worth listening to because its usually based on fantasy and driven by possibly real world frustration that you cannot articulate into a sensible line of debate.

When you have decided to grow up and do some research and present a valid argument, I will be here waiting eagerly to respond, in a respectful manner and will listen to your view and give mine in the true spirit of debate.

I do however wager you know f*ck all about any military subjects other than the A Team or Platoon.

Prove me wrong.

In the meantime, you can at least sleep safely at night, knowing that even I, as a humble reservist, have still offered to give my life to save the likes of yours, but only as a citizen of Ireland, not because I owe you anything and it doesn't mean I have to like you. Laugh at that all you want but its what we have all volunteered to do. In todays defence forces I am surrounded by intelligent, articulate, creative, strong, selfless and patriotic individuals who for me represent the greatest team of comrades and friends I have ever had the pleasure to be a part of. They represent for me, all that is still great about this country and make it easy to ignore the likes of you so until you want to return for some reasonable debate, .

Chill out angry people shouldn't be in charge of dangerous weapons:)

I'm not against having a defence force . I was in the the fca and loved it. Even was accepted into the army as a recruit but I also wanted a trade as a fitter. I ended up getting an apprenticeship in civvy world and never looked back. Did I think at 18 if I entered into service as an Irish soldier would I be sent to a war zone . God no !!! I think if you asked any potential Irish recruit the same question. No would be the answer. Ask any British recruit what ****e hole he may end up in he ll start reaming off the places he could end up in

British squaddies are on crap money . Google tells me you have to be an NCO with a trade gets 35 k . A normal soldier has to get to the rank of staff Sargent to get to that level.

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/armypayscales.htm

I don't think you can compare an Irish soldier to a british soldier or a Us soldier
We ll never enter into any armed conflict with anyone. I have no problem with that. I think we should respect the soldiers who died in service to the UN in the Congo and Leb . I don't know when the last Irish soldier died from coming under fire? I do think the Irish government have been cherry picking as to what UN mandated conflict to send our lads off to peace keeping. You only have to look at past atrocities on tv why aren't the UN and Ireland reacting to it. Fact we don't want to send Irish people into a dangerous conflict zone to be sent home in body bags . I'd actually would like to see Irish soldiers being sent off to enforce peace. That would be a good thing for those less fortunate.

In the meantime, you can at least sleep safely at night, knowing that even I, as a humble reservist, have still offered to give my life to save the likes of yours,


That'll never happen !!! Aliens will have landed and have taken over the armouries before you make it up to the barracks to pick up your steyr and 20 rounds of ammo


you may need us to help the gardai and emergency service to calm the tension and rioting in the streets

If the country suddenly went wallop and no was getting paid and 100 000 people marched on the dail . Soldiers and guards walloping their telescopic batons against their shields would have no effect on a mass group!!!

Do we need over 8000 soldiers . No we don't . Keep a small number for ceromonial duties. A certain number for natural disasters and Bomb disposal but this could be done by civilian police We need more resources for the navy really they are the only ones who can protect our only resource Fish. I'd rather see 3000 more guards on the beat...


Anyway don't be getting angry:)

Morpheus

My post and anger was solely directed at irishRedStar. Unlike Cambridge (whilst who's points I dont agree with, has nevertheless engaged in intelligent debate, outlining his/her beliefs about national defence and reasons why they have them) No, IrishRedStar came on here with NO backup to his points, just mindless shouting and shyte spouting. Yes I was trolled

tac foley

benwavner wrote: »

There is NOTHING wrong with wanting to serve in your countries military. War waging or not war waging. There is actually no point in trying to reason with a person like you.

You should have written this after his/her first post on the subject.

Ireland owes its very existence as a free and independent nation among free nations of the world to the Irish patriots who gave their lives to make it so.

No doubt having his/her citizenship taken away would not concern him/her overmuch. Perhaps it's time that those among you who would prefer to be something else should be given the option of leaving.

tac

DipStick McSwindler

This post has been deleted.

twinytwo

cambridge wrote: »

It's inherently stupid. You were born in this country by fluke. Flags are just pieces of material, borders just lines on a map.

I laugh at sad little people like yourself... you could leave and move to another country??... things too cushy for you here though??.. maybe it is because you couldnt join the PDF, you have a massive chip on your shoulder.

People dont fight for flags, they fight for what the flag represents.

if fighting did have to be done, you would be the one standing at the back expecting everyone else to do it for you.

darkhorse

twinytwo wrote: »

I laugh at sad little people like yourself... you could leave and move to another country??... things too cushy for you here though??.. maybe it is because you couldnt join the PDF, you have a massive chip on your shoulder.

Maybe he should look at syria and decide if that would suit him as regards action.