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Hatred of the defence forces.

  • 13-05-2012 1:31am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 30


    I'm only RDF, but i came across an obnoxious viewpoint tonight from someone claiming that the Irish military was useless, and that any peacekeeping missions done by the Defence forces were mercenary.

    I nearly ended up in a fistfight with this person, but my question is how did such mindless disrespect and contempt creep into the psyche of normal Irish people towards the army.

    As far as i am concerned the Defence forces has achieved incredible things internationally for their role in peacekeeping and are recognised for it. Tell anyone from the Lebanon whether the Irish army is useless and im sure they will strongly disagree with you. Ask the same thing of people from Iberia or Kosovo.

    Why do some normal Irish people have such contempt towards the military here?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Why do some normal Irish people have such contempt towards the military here?
    As they are never in the news over killing people, blowing sh|t up, and screwing up badly, it seems people don't think the Irish Army does anything.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    bore wrote: »
    I wouldnt say theres a hatred to the defence forces but they can at least argue the point imo ...
    cash escorts , ceremonial/parade duties , enemy party for cadets , doing the work of the county council and weapons displays for students .. you think the public should admire the army for that ?
    as for peacekeeping .. i dont know what you think goes on overseas but the fact is any twenty something who goes to the leb or went to kosovo (cant comment on liberia) comes back like an absoloute tank from hitting the gym twice a day , that is just not possible if they were regularly going on patrols , sending out recci teams , living on the ground on ration packs and just generally doing hard soldiering so draw your own conclusions there (anyone who disagrees is a liar)
    the irish do have a great rep as peacekeepers but correct me if im wrong highly motivated well trained soldiers make the worst peacekeepers i.e the paras in northern ireland and the us rangers in somalia
    just my opinion , dont go all keyboard warrior on me if you dont agree :D


    Ha


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Salvation


    All Soldiers are Mercenaries the difference between us and the freelancers is that we are regulated and paid for by a government.

    The Defence forces is what they are a Defence force but they are the only public service that are 100% accountable and actually do their job.

    As for that moron with his opinion, he obviously is an ignorant twat and you would be worse to get in a fight with him and laugh at him as he is braindead and most likely a non functioning member of society that has never lifted a finger.


  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭KickstartHeart


    Because everyone in this country has an opinion. Whether they know what they're on about or not. Most Irish people are negative and like to put down everything about Ireland.

    Compare; not knowing anything about a subject, with Irish peoples continuous negative attitude, and you get a negative opinion. That's why people put down the Irish Defence Forces so much. Because they haven't a clue what their on about, and they by and large like to put things down anyway.

    A post on this thread already highlights my point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭KickstartHeart


    bore wrote: »
    kickstartheart you in the defence forces ?
    i dont have a negative attitude im just a realist

    So spell it out for us. What point are you trying to make?

    Does the Irish defence forces not warrant respect? Are its soldiers poorly trained? Do people who bash the Defence Forces and say it does nothing have a decent argument?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    Good few people I know are bitter towards the defense forces because they think that they let down the one group of Irish people who have actually needed defending - those in the north

    I just say that they can only do what they are ordered to


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    bore wrote: »
    fair enough so ..
    no they dont deserve respect and yes they are poorly trained (myself never even trained in fibua but im **** hot at trench warfare :P lol what does that tell you about the training)



    Well well well arent you original.


  • Registered Users Posts: 927 ✭✭✭Maybe_Memories


    bore wrote: »
    as for peacekeeping .. i dont know what you think goes on overseas but the fact is any twenty something who goes to the leb or went to kosovo (cant comment on liberia) comes back like an absoloute tank from hitting the gym twice a day , that is just not possible if they were regularly going on patrols , sending out recci teams , living on the ground on ration packs and just generally doing hard soldiering so draw your own conclusions there (anyone who disagrees is a liar)

    Chad. Rangers (part of PDF so this is a valid point) first in. They went on patrols, did recon, made safe IEDs. Sounds like pretty hard soldering to me. I've heard rumors of lethal force being used by them on that mission as well. As I said, heard rumors. I'm not saying thats fact.

    In Liberia they rescued a group of hostages from armed rebels.

    East Timor, they were called the most professional special ops team some Aussie government guy had seen.

    As for the rest of the PDF, some are working with ISAF in Afghanistan, others are part of the Nordic Battle Group. There are talks of sending the Navy to Somalia.

    When the Queen was here last year the Air Corp had to intercept a bogey entering restricted air space.


    Don't even get me started on what happened in the Congo.


    Sounds like the PDF is certainly doing something.


  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭KickstartHeart


    I'm beginning to think that mr. Bore may be in the RDF, and thinks his training mirrors that of the Army.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭xflyer


    Whatever happened to Mr Bore's comments? It's odd to read them second hand.

    To answer the original question. I think it's partly down to the history when quite frankly the army was badly trained, poorly equipped and apparently did nothing before the deployment to the Congo changed things. This poor view of the army has been handed down over the generations. The fact that things have changed considerably hasn't entered the collective consciousness.

    Then there's the reality that the army has never seen war and given our so called neutrality probably never will. An army that never has to face war can be seen as a bit of sinecure. The sad truth is for the army to gain any respect in the general public's eyes. They have to go to war, suffer casualties and distinguish themselves in battle. Peacekeeping for all it's worthiness doesn't quite capture the imagination.

    Meanwhile the news is full of images of other soldiers fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq or wherever the latest war pops up. But the general public's only sight of the Irish army is seeing them carry out the highly dangerous job of standing outside a bank.:(

    I don't see how that perception can be changed though. In spite of the good they do. It'll never be appreciated.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,752 ✭✭✭cyrusdvirus


    expanding on Xflyers point, when incidents like Jadotville, which was as good a feat of soldiering you'll find, get covered up it doesn't help.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Salvation wrote: »
    ...The Defence forces is what they are a Defence force but they are the only public service that are 100% accountable and actually do their job....

    I guess slagging off the rest of the public service, fireman, police, doctors nurses, etc isn't doing you any favours.


  • Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭Jogathon


    I think that the defence forces do a great job. I'm not connected to them in any way, but I do live near the south coast where we see the benefit of our Naval Service.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Salvation


    BostonB wrote: »
    I guess slagging off the rest of the public service, fireman, police, doctors nurses, etc isn't doing you any favours.

    At least they get overtime, people seem to over look the military when the public service are in the lime light.

    We cant strike and we actually do our job as we are under 2 laws not one military and civil.

    I would respect the Firemen as they do an excellent job and one of the best, as for the rest, I will say nothing as my comments might offend the less productive parts of the public service ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Well you slagged them all off, be they children's doctors or someone dealing with dole payments, or working out your tax. Lots of jobs that people aren't interesting in doing, or able but keep society working.

    A lot of the criticism of the defence force is around value for money. I mean why do the banks not cover the full cost of using the Army for security? Why does the tax payer need to pay that. What value do the PC9's give us over another CASA or two. Things like that.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    My gripe is looking at all of the cuts that front line services undergo be they gardai, fire service, paramedic, doctors etc - and i mean coalface roles - and then looking at how innefficient their senior staff can be (not 100% of them but I personally believe the majority of senior staff in these depts are not doing their job).

    From firsthand experience of this level of management especially in the healthcare area I know that there are stupid needless levels of hierarchies and micromanagement of staff, duplication of roles, PLUS absolutely horrendous levels of waste of resources both personnel and material supplies.

    The dept of defence have made an art of removing this kind of wasteage and I believe that w/o the prospect of facing unions that the same process applied to the defence forces back in 1999-2000, that being the PWC white paper on defence, if this were done (for example) to the HSE AND followed through by implementation of all of the recommendations would result in a leaner more efficient less top heavy dept with benefit to all citizens.

    The downfall here was that some of these reccomendations made by PWC were cherry picked at a political level by spineless politicians and probably as a result of parish pump politics and sadly at a time when we had surplus cash and some were never implemented or were half heartedly employed, still the defence forces today is a leaner greener more robust and flexible machine than it was in the 90s.

    Just my own opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Anybody, and I mean ANYBODY, who signs on the dotted line to become a member of their country's Armed Forces - call them what you will - has effectively signed over not just a few years of their life, but what could, in certain circumstances, be the entire rest of their lives.

    You are signing up to offering your life for your country - a risk that goes along with the wearing of the rather odd clothes that you are made to wear to distinguish you [the defender] from the civilian [the defended].

    Respect is due and required.

    G*d Bless ALL our Armed Forces, who might be put in harm's way so that the rest of you can sleep easy in your beds at night, your children grow up in peace, and that you speak and hear the language of your choice whenever you want to.

    tac


  • Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭thoker


    Army deafness hearings, what a shower?:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,204 ✭✭✭FoxT


    I'm only RDF, but i came across an obnoxious viewpoint tonight from someone claiming that the Irish military was useless, and that any peacekeeping missions done by the Defence forces were mercenary.

    I nearly ended up in a fistfight with this person, but my question is how did such mindless disrespect and contempt creep into the psyche of normal Irish people towards the army.

    As far as i am concerned the Defence forces has achieved incredible things internationally for their role in peacekeeping and are recognised for it. Tell anyone from the Lebanon whether the Irish army is useless and im sure they will strongly disagree with you. Ask the same thing of people from Iberia or Kosovo.

    Why do some normal Irish people have such contempt towards the military here?


    OP, I know nothing about the defence forces, but my impression as a layman, is that they do seem to punch well above their weight on UN missions, and they have also been of great service during flooding here in Ireland over recent years.

    The air corps seem to maintain a good SAR service, the navy strikes me as being underequipped for the large patrol area they have?

    It is true that the army deafness claims looked somewhat ridiculous - but again I speak as a layman here. It is a pity that the issue was not managed better for the sake of all involved.

    I also wonder about how well equipped the army is? I must confess, if I had decided on a military career then purely for career reasons the UK DF would offer better experience/promotion prospects?

    I am posting here, not so much to share my opinion, more to find out more about it. Thanks.

    -FoxT


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    tac foley wrote: »
    ...You are signing up to offering your life for your country - a risk that goes along with the wearing of the rather odd clothes that you are made to wear to distinguish you [the defender] from the civilian [the defended].

    Respect is due and required....

    Everything is relative.
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/farming-officially-the-deadliest-job-2977668.html


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    Ah, the Deafness Claims carry on raises it's head yet again...

    The claims all stemmed from DoD trying to do things on the cheap and refusing to issue troops hearing protection as they weren't bothered to splash the cash and buy it. Cue lads who spent years using small arms, on mortar lines etc. on a frequent basis suddenly realising that "Hang on a minute, my ears don't work anymore". We're not talking about being in a contact Overseas and not having hearing protection on. We're talking about lads carrying out training and still not being given adequate protection.

    The DoD and in turn the DF, tried the cheap option and in doing so, sacrificed troops health for no good reason. Not only that but there was lads turning up, with their own personally purchased hearing protection, being threatened with being disciplined for using non issued kit.

    Did some people chance their arm? Of course they did.

    However, the fault of the claims lies solely at the feet of the DoD and it's retarded logic and penny pinching.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    I'd say most people criticism is for the management of the DF .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    BostonB wrote: »

    I fail to see how it's relevant to what Tac was saying?

    He was making the point that someone, upon joining their countries military, is effectively signing over their life to the service of their country, something which could result in their death.

    He's not saying "Being a soldier is super dangerous all the time".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    BostonB wrote: »
    I'd say most people criticism is for the management of the DF .

    IMO, I'd say most people haven't the slightest breeze about management in the DF.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Poccington wrote: »
    IMO, I'd say most people haven't the slightest breeze about management in the DF.

    Management of not in.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    BostonB wrote: »
    Management of not in.

    Even then, I'd still say most people have no real idea.

    Purely because in Ireland, there's quite a lack of interest from people when it comes to the DF.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    I've never came across that attitude a few of my friends are trying to join the army and no one has giving then **** about it
    personally i think we should invest in the military as native military industry could create jobs


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Poccington wrote: »
    Even then, I'd still say most people have no real idea.

    Purely because in Ireland, there's quite a lack of interest from people when it comes to the DF.

    I hate to say it, but I find that when people bring up the DF, in relation to some issue, its generally the butt of jokes, or criticism of its role and costs. Most people don't understand why it isn't utilised for more things they would find directly useful. Its only people with some interest in military matters or connection with the DF that would know something of the roles the DF actually does.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    BostonB wrote: »
    I hate to say it, but I find that when people bring up the DF, in relation to some issue, its generally the butt of jokes, or criticism of its role and costs. Most people don't understand why it isn't utilised for more things they would find directly useful. Its only people with some interest in military matters or connection with the DF that would know something of the roles the DF actually does.

    Completely agree with you.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭doomed


    I suspect most of the people who slag off the DF either wouldn't get in themselves or would be F**k all use if they did.


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