Hatred of the defence forces.

BostonB

Poccington wrote: »

I fail to see how it's relevant to what Tac was saying?

He was making the point that someone, upon joining their countries military, is effectively signing over their life to the service of their country, something which could result in their death.

He's not saying "Being a soldier is super dangerous all the time".

Sorry but I don't get the distinction you're making. Risk, life, death, I don't see how else you could take those terms. Relatively speaking its not that dangerous in relation to other jobs in Ireland, is the point I'm making. Lots of careers require commitments of long terms or contacts, even a lifetime contract, though usually you choose to leave almost all of them.

I'm not rubbishing that is has risk, or that it require serious commitment. But lets rein in the drama. Tac's experience I seem to remember is a little broader than most.

BostonB

doomed wrote: »

I suspect most of the people who slag off the DF either wouldn't get in themselves or would be F**k all use if they did.

I think thats a bit of a cop out. It doesn't hurt to learn from valid criticism.

Wilberto

Firstly, we're a neutral country (obviously), so any wars like Iraq etc. are all out of the question for the Irish Army.

Secondly, The FCA was a joke, seriously! It became known as the "Free Clothing Association" and "Fools Carrying Arms". And even from first hand experience (I was a member for several years), the people who signed up had no more interest of being there. All they wanted was the money from camp. And don't get me started on the joke that those camps were. We all went there for a laugh, nothing more!

But that's why they tried to somewhat overhaul it and change it to the RDF. And, to be fair, it did improve to an extent. The corporal and seargeant's courses became tougher, we actually had meaningful two week camps in the Summer, for example one summer for two weeks we did a mortar course up in Kilkenny. And there were other signs of improvements too. Not sure what it's like now myself because I'm out of it for about 5 years but it seemed to be on the right track when I left.


Oh and another example of how much of a joke the FCA was, even though the age limit was 17, there was a 16 year old Corporal. I knew lieing about your age was a very common occurance, but a 16 year old corporal was just ridiculous.

Another example was during the corporals course when a female private went on sick leave ((I can't remember what it's actually called)) for pretty much the whole two weeks of the course.......and still got her corporal stripes.


To finish though, like I said, that was the FCA. They knew themselves something was rotten with that whole section of the defense forces and they did make a few changes (at least it seemed like that on the ground level), and merged smaller battallions into a larger one etc. and, again it really did seem to be improving when I left.

BostonB

Seems to me there's been a sea of change in the DF over the last decade or so. Its the small things I notice. Like the squads jogging in the park, with packs, in good formation. I doubt I ever saw that a decade ago. There were also on the TV last rebuilding a browning from that crashed spit in the bog. Then test firing it. Good to see.

xflyer

I'm afraid your post summarises many of the problems of public perception of the Defence forces.

Wilberto wrote: »

Firstly, we're a neutral country (obviously), so any wars like Iraq etc. are all out of the question for the Irish Army.

We're not neutral, never were, never will be. That's the fantasy perpetrated for years by various governments over the years. We weren't even neutral in WW2. We are non aligned. Wars like Iraq or wherever are not out of the question. We have troops in Afghanistan right now. This neutrality myth needs to be consigned to history once and for all.

Secondly, The FCA was a joke, seriously! It became known as the "Free Clothing Association" and "Fools Carrying Arms". And even from first hand experience (I was a member for several years), the people who signed up had no more interest of being there. All they wanted was the money from camp. And don't get me started on the joke that those camps were. We all went there for a laugh, nothing more!

It was units like yours that gave the rest of the FCA the bad reputation it had. My experience in our Dublin Battalion was quite different. Sure we had the problem of poor equipment and inadequate training. But everyone involved wanted to be there and we had a good turnout all year round. Camp was taken seriously and we served along the border several years running and were the first FCA unit to get helicopter training and experience. A large number of members later went on to the PDF and other forces having distinguished careers. But we were the exception. Most other units we came across were shambolic in comparison.

As for the Free Clothes Association 'Joke'. It was quite ironic, considering how much money we all spent on our uniforms and equipment to make up for the penny pinching attitude of the government.

Oh and another example of how much of a joke the FCA was, even though the age limit was 17, there was a 16 year old Corporal. I knew lieing about your age was a very common occurance, but a 16 year old corporal was just ridiculous.

Again it would never happen in my unit but we did have a 14 year old recruit and the vast majority joined when they were 16. This got Ireland mentioned by Amnesty in terms of using child soldiers. But as another example of how the FCA wasn't taken seriously as a military unit. A lawyer friend who is an expert in the field dismissed it as an 'over the top reaction'. 'It was' she said 'only the FCA'. A sort of glorified boy scout troop.

With that kind of legacy it's no wonder there is a general lack of regard for the Defence Forces.

KickstartHeart

A life in the Defence Forces may hold low amounts of risk. But the risk amounts on operations. Given the amount of our soldiers that were killed oversea's from IED's, mines, gun fire, and in some cases general combat, its fair to say that going on operations with the Defence Forces is definitely more risky than other jobs.

Obviously other jobs will have more risk attached than a life time in the Army. Pretty much most armies are not risky. They just get risky when operations arise. If you exclude the missions that soldiers take part in, from any army, the job isn't too risky. (within reason. some armies in the world exist in war zones, rather than getting sent to them like the PDF or the British Army or other ones closes to us).

BostonB

The point still stands that other professions are more dangerous in relative terms per the numbers involved. If you consider how often you stand beside lethal spinning machinery, or working from heights or electricity on a daily basis.

I'm not dismissing the magnitude of what the DF can be asked to do. Not everyone can do a different profession, be it, work at height, or put themselves in harms way, or walk into a fire etc.

Morpheus

Good thing we dont train regularly with live munitions, explosives, grenades, rockets, artillery, heavy machinery, around and in vehicles, aircraft, boats, ships, both in and under water, inside aircraft, parachuting, in heavy machinery shops, welding, cutting, cranes, LFTT, on ranges, in and around areas containing unexploded ordnance, living outdoors for days on end, etc ..... get the picture? The DF isnt about strolling unarmed around a barracks all day. All the safety in the world doesnt stop someone clearing a weapon incorrectly due to tiredness and missing your foot by inches with a live round, being shot in the arm on a range practice, or sadly like the young soldier from cork being buried today who was killed during LFTT in the UK last week.

Kat1170

BostonB wrote: »

The point still stands that other professions are more dangerous in relative terms per the numbers involved. If you consider how often you stand beside lethal spinning machinery, or working from heights or electricity on a daily basis.

I'm not dismissing the magnitude of what the DF can be asked to do. Not everyone can do a different profession, be it, work at height, or put themselves in harms way, or walk into a fire etc.

You mean as opposed to the fitters, riggers, electricians, and firemen in the DF ???? :cool:

Your ignorance of what the DF actually do on a day to day basis is clear. :rolleyes:

BostonB

Kat1170 wrote: »

You mean as opposed to the fitters, riggers, electricians, and firemen in the DF ???? :cool:

Your ignorance of what the DF actually do on a day to day basis is clear. :rolleyes:

So your saying the stats are wrong. Can you offer some links to better stats then?

BostonB

That wasn't the Irish DF though. The point still stands regarding the number of relative deaths and accidents in Ireland.

Morpheus

the most dangerous job in ireland was supposedly in the construction industry or farming in a recent survey no?

so the DF are safer? of course they are. This isnt due to us all carrying water pistols and throwing halloween bangers at each other... rather do you think that this could be something to do with the vast quantity of H&S thrown at you from the moment you join as a recruit.

The DF is a safer place to work due to the effort they have put in to MAKE, what is by its nature a deadly working environment, an inherently safe one, purely because of the level of training and care and protection its employees are given and surrounded by.

NOT because the consequences of your actions around the military working environment are less dangerous, but because due to your training, it is MORE safe.

Some of the other industries in Ireland with bad track records in deaths in the workplace, could do with an equal amount of regulation in regard to H&S.

Nobody here is saying the being in the DF means you have THEE most dangerous job in the country, rather they are saying that due to our training in health and safety, its much harder to accidentally walk into a spinning rotor or drop the grenade on the range after you've pulled the pin and not have your training kick in and save your life. But it remains a potentially deadly working environment there are almost 15000 members in the DF (including reserves), that alone makes it one of the larger industries in the country yet there are not many potentially lethal injuries and this is due to ... you guessed it, training and H&S.

As regards it not being the Irish DF, we do the same training and run the SAME risk. he was unlucky even though he too was properly trained and surrounded by an environment made as safe as possible for what he was doing. All it takes is one person to slip and fall in mud etc, mid shot with safety off and someone gets hurt. Anyway, this thread now has f**k all to do with hatred of the DF.

tac foley

BostonB wrote: »

The point still stands that other professions are more dangerous in relative terms per the numbers involved. If you consider how often you stand beside lethal spinning machinery, or working from heights or electricity on a daily basis.

Sir - you seem to have overlooked the point that the 'lethal spinning machinery, heights and electricity' are not actively doing their utmost best to kill you.

For those who choose to wear uniform, that simple fact persuades other people that they are live targets to be engaged and 'neutralised'.

tac

BostonB

tac foley wrote: »

Sir - you seem to have overlooked the point that the 'lethal spinning machinery, heights and electricity' are not actively doing their utmost best to kill you....

I suggest you don't test that theory when working with them. Gravity in particular doesn't generally miss.

tac foley

BostonB wrote: »

I suggest you don't test that theory when working with them. Gravity in particular doesn't generally miss.

Sir - again, you miss the point. These phenomena are not sentient, but either forces of nature or the products of human generation. But they do not actively or intentionally try and kill you because you are 'their enemy'.

Unless, of course, you believe that these forces of nature have a life and will of their own...

tac

BostonB

Morphéus wrote: »

....Anyway, this thread now has f**k all to do with hatred of the DF.

I don't see how you can deny that peoples perception (hatred) is coloured by their opinion or indeed experience of the relative risks of different professions.

BostonB

tac foley wrote: »

Sir - again, you miss the point. These phenomena are not sentient, but either forces of nature or the products of human generation. But they do not actively or intentionally try and kill you because you are 'their enemy'.

Unless, of course, you believe that these forces of nature have a life and will of their own...

tac

The stats would suggest that the lack of sentience doesn't make them less dangerous.

twinytwo

BostonB wrote: »

I guess slagging off the rest of the public service, fireman, police, doctors nurses, etc isn't doing you any favours.

whatever about everyone one else... its impossible to hate a guy who will walk into a burning building to pull your ass out.... that said i wonder is it as bad here as it is in england.

I remember watching a show on ITV or one of the like a few months back, where a women fell down an old mining shaft in wales and the health and saftey guys prevented the firemen from lifting her out with one of their harnessess as it wasnt "safe" and in breach of regulations.

They were told they would have to wait for specalist equipment to be flown in that would take 4 hours. They even tried to get the medic that was with her out of the hole... he told them what to do with themselves.

The equipment took so long the women died of a heart attack.

There was also a case of a policeman being brought up on report for breaching health and saftey regulation by going into a icy river to pull a man out.....

Whats next???... soldiers arnt allowed to go to war any more?

KickstartHeart

Is there a point to your argument Boston?

In the UK the figures of farm deaths a year aren't far off the deaths of soldiers per year...and they're fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan in the worst war since the Korean War.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-11682742

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbcGhOdG0zTG1EWkVPanRFU1JZNW8wZHc#gid=0

http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2010/hse-fatals0910ag.htm

Please stop going on about this. Your'e clogging up the threads that we use to discuss these topics.

I promise you, a tour in Chad is definitely a lot more risky than farming. There are many many variables and different things to take into consideration if you want to compare the danger levels of service in the Defence Forces to other jobs. Simply looking at yearly numbers of accidents and fatalities does not look deeply enough at the issue.

Other than that farming is the most dangerous job in Ireland, have you anything better to add to this thread that is asking why people dislike or don't appreciate what their country's military do?

groundshaker

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Is there a point to your argument Boston?

In the UK the figures of farm deaths a year aren't far off the deaths of soldiers per year...and they're fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan in the worst war since the Korean War.


What ya have to remember there though is the amount of people farming is massive compared to britains troop numbers in afganistan, and even greater still if ya take into account those who are on the front line...

BostonB

KickstartHeart wrote: »

Is there a point to your argument Boston?

In the UK the figures of farm deaths a year aren't far off the deaths of soldiers per year...and they're fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan in the worst war since the Korean War. ...

Theres no rule you have to like the answers on a thread. Be a bit pointless if there was tbh. Why compare deaths of the UK armed forces at war to the Irish DF who aren't. I don't really get the relevance. Your point seems to be that farming in the UK is as dangerous as being on the front-line in a war. But thats not true. Obviously in the UK is more risky to be soldier than is in Ireland. As groundshaker says its got to do with the numbers in it. The figures in the paper I linked to took this into account though.

Besides public opinion in the UK of its armed forces is very different to Ireland. But it might be interesting to contrast why public opinion is so different between the two countries if you believe its a similar situation. I think its a very different tradition in the UK and has a vastly different history.

I also think the DF have a public perception issue, past on the past. Its not an accurate reflection of it today. But there doesn't seem to be much if any effort to promote a better public image. I don't think ignoring the poor public opinion is helpful tbh.

Salvation

thoker wrote: »

Army deafness hearings, what a shower?:rolleyes:

It is nothing compared to what pure crap the Gardai claimed for so get your facts straight...

Morpheus

Navy: drug interdiction, EEZ patrols, fishing boat detainment, merc3 initiative www.imerc.ie
Army: EOD (bomb disposal), UN missions, EU battlegroup, GOH, public displays, Band, etc
Air corps: Supporting army, air ambulance, topcover for SAR and coastguard, maritime patrol etc

all of this is available in the public domain and the DF are really pushing to get this up into the notice of irish people, this hasnt happened before until the advent of social media but the DF are finally coming around to how important knowledge of what they do coupled with their public image is to civilians here.

www.imerc.ie
www.military.ie
http://www.facebook.com/DefenceForces
http://www.facebook.com/DFTC.PRESS.OFFICE

theyre all over twitter too.

its there if you even attempt the slightest of searches, what do people want? the front page of national news papers!!!???

BostonB

Glad things are changing.

Morphéus wrote: »

...what do people want? the front page of national news papers!!!???

Why not. The UK military is almost always in the UK media. Often on the front page. Maybe its a cultural thing though.

Have to say I think its great were seeing it more of the DF on the TV. Like Baz programme while back.

tac foley

Ireland and its people struggled against the British by force of arms, and then its soldiers [one of whom was my dad] took part in a bloody civil war that has had repercussions down to this very day. The Irish National Anthem is 'The Soldier's Song'. It is a fact that Ireland owes its very existence to its military in one form or another.

How many of the population view the Defence Forces is nothing less than a shameful betrayal of the sacrifices made by our forefathers.

What to do about it?

I haven't a clue.

tac

BostonB

I was thinking when I was going around the museum in Baldonnel why there so interest in museums like that Ireland. In the UK or the US, there's loads of Aviation and military museums. Here theres little interest.

OS119

Morphéus wrote: »

... the front page of national news papers!!!???

no reason why not, is easy to get double page spreads if you take a journalist and photographer along on anything thats remotely interesting. lots of pictures of 'whizz-bang', some drivel from the hack and its all free for them, rather than paying some slag to tell them about being shagged outside a nightclub by a footballer.

the problem - as i see it - is not that the tasks you've listed aren't worth doing, but that, by and large, they are not what military forces, with all the inherant risks you've written about, are for, or that for domestic political reasons, the Government/DoD isn't keen on the media shining much light on them.

so, you are caught in a double bind: the stuff that the DF does that the public sees - the CIT's, the Fisheries Protection, the Ceremonial etc.. is, to be brutally honest, a bit lame, while the exciting, potentially dangerous, military stuff the DF does - like exercises with the NBG in the Arctic Circle, ISAF in Afghanistan, or beating the crap out of rioters in Kosovo the media is kept well away from because of the phobia about overseas operations within Irish society and politics.

to be entirely fair, if were an Irish taxpayer and i relied on what i saw in the media for my understanding of what i paid the DF to do, i'd be a bit sceptical as well - i'd be seeing very well paid people doing safe 'non-jobs' in very expensive equipment. the problem is exacerbated by them seeing British soldiers, on less money, killing AQ and Taliban nasties in Afghanistan, and French troops blowing up Pirate boats in Somalia.

thats the problem, Irish society sees other militaries doing difficult, dangerous things in grotty places - whether they agree with them or not - and the comparrison they make with their own military, partly because of the media profile of their own militaries tasks, is not an attractive one.

BostonB

Dunno if I would fully agree with that. I think people would like to see more of the regular stuff too.

goldie fish

BostonB wrote: »

I was thinking when I was going around the museum in Baldonnel why there so interest in museums like that Ireland. In the UK or the US, there's loads of Aviation and military museums. Here theres little interest.

There's a museum in baldonnel?

BostonB

Yes. It may not be open to the general public. Its lot very big but its full of allsorts of interesting things. I have some photos somewhere.
Lots of photos, models, uniforms, aircraft. See here

http://www.militaryheritage.ie/research/milmuseums/ac/acorps.htm