Eminem

mufcboy1999

i wont answer it all myself because i havnt much energy left to go back and forth more than we already have.

Jay-Z has never done Eminem numbers, no one hip-hop has done Eminem numbers. But my point is Jay-z has not taking such a massive hit in numbers unlike Eminem so it is not just the "digital era" to blame.

exactly he's always done average to good numbers so there was no real hit to take for him because he never done amazing numbers like eminem.

what hit has em took though? his last album was the highest selling album of 2010 ... that is a huge achievement for this current climate for selling music, no hip hop artist has come close to recovery in recent years.

Jay-Z has always played down Beyonce. They didn't even say they were dating for years. Plus Jay-Z helped bring Rihanna up and now he shouldn't have her on his songs?

look lets be honest here, everyone outside of hip hop knows jay z as beyonces husband, its done his career on a global stage wonders. ye i know rhianna is his artist but thats my point he has 2 of the biggest pop stars in his pocket, his exposure in there videos has helped keep a near 50 year old relevant outside the states.

conor.hogan.2

No. It is about scale. He has good numbers hip-hop wise and did not take such a massive massive hit in sales like Eminem. Look at the numbers and look at the drop comparatively between the two.

Again I am not debating he is still no1 hip-hop wise. I said that. I am talking actual numbers. You have to look at it comparatively and you will see that Eminem has dropped percentage wise way down when compared to Jay for example. It is not just a "higher you are the further you fall" sort of thing either I think it is because of the quality drop in albums for Eminem when compared with Jay for example (and I don't even particularly like Jay so don't get me wrong on that front I think Em out raps him overall)

They only got married recently. Before that it was very very hush hush. Eminem has many stars by his side too (slaughterhouse and yela have helped him a lot much like 50 did before etc) plus he has a lot more controversy and general buzz around him because of all the bad things in and around his hiatus.

Now I know they aren't pop stars. But Jay has not played the rihanna or beyonce card anymore than Eminem has used Dre/50/SH/controversy etc

They are both just incidentals and of course they will both use whatever is there for them they would be idiots not to.

Anyway - boils down to me thinking the last 2 albums as a whole sucked overall and you think they did not.

No need to back and forth.

Jimmy Iovine

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

No. It is about scale. He has good numbers hip-hop wise and did not take such a massive massive hit in sales like Eminem. Look at the numbers and look at the drop comparatively between the two.

Again I am not debating he is still no1 hip-hop wise. I said that. I am talking actual numbers. You have to look at it comparatively and you will see that Eminem has dropped percentage wise way down when compared to Jay for example. It is not just a "higher you are the further you fall" sort of thing either I think it is because of the quality drop in albums for Eminem when compared with Jay for example (and I don't even particularly like Jay so don't get me wrong on that front I think Em out raps him overall)

I think you're being quite unfair on Eminem (not that he gives a damn).

While I think that he is always going to be able to outsell almost everyone else in the industry you can't really compare his sales now to the sales of the early '00s. Back when he came on the scene everyone had money to be spending on albums and there really wasn't any hope of being able to download the album.

Nowadays everyone and anyone with access to a computer can get his entire back catalogue with the click of a button and it's on their iPod in 10/15 minutes. This development has hit record sales a huge amount. There are annual decreases and it has been happening since the release of The Eminem Show. It was one of the last albums to sell 10 million in the US in the last decade.

Then you have to consider that Eminem was a cultural and commercial monster in the early '00s. He was everywhere. 3 albums in 3 years. Then he had a film as well. He could do no wrong.

I don't think we'll ever see an artist with the 3/4 year stretch that he enjoyed. He was a once in a generation cultural phenomenon who came in at just the right time. 5 years earlier and he'd have been competing with Biggie and Tupac. 5 years later and he'd have been competing with declining album sales and a rise in internet downloads.

Jigga doesn't come close to Eminem for sales. 50 is the only one who ever really challenged him but that was years ago. The same with Outkast and their double album. Even Lady Gaga and Justin Bieber aren't within a donkeys roar of '00s Eminem. And that's pretty amazing considering the ridiculously obsessive nature of their fans.

That he managed to sell 4 million copies of a pretty average album (Recovery) shows that he still has got it with regard to sales. But not so much with the quality of the output. Hopefully he can get it back together again.

conor.hogan.2

I don't think I am. I still listen to him and am waiting for more of him. But the last two albums were "ehhh".

Of course he is still massive. Ridiculously massive. Sold more than 2pac.

60m+ in 5 years over 4 albums (and on the chronic and 50 etc) speaks for itself and he is more a household name than Jay or anyone else really.

Underground

Wow. Just noticed this thread now and there are one or to things that stand out for me.

Firstly, I find it very worrying that people can put Eminem's downfall in his music down to him becoming sober. I think the even sadder part is that even Eminem himself is convinced that coming down off drugs was what caused the mediocre music.

It's a ridiculous notion to suggest and as was mentioned earlier, the key component which caused his music to become a bit shít was when he somehow got it into his head that he's a great producer. I remember when he produced The Cross for Nas on God's Son and thinking to myself "this is probably the worst beat I've ever heard." He was off his tits on drugs on Encore and that album was dire, so the "coming down" argument really has no substance at all.

Also, to suggest that he's not progressing as an artist is a bit odd. Recovery,although a bit cheesy,was by far his most "grown-up" effort to date. Seems to be coming more into his own these days and he was definitely on form on the EP with Royce.

conor.hogan.2

Encore was a masterpiece compared to the last 2 albums. Even Eminem would agree with that I am sure.

He was good with Royce.
With Royce, Royce was good and Eminem (formally being a great MC) was improved greatly by bringing back Royce/bad meets evil. Royce upped Eminem by being around.

Neither of those last 2 albums were his most "grown up", they had some great songs which were "grown up" but not compared to the rest of his songs.

jonneymendoza

His last album was a masterpiece/ better then encore. dunno why people diddnt like it.

he is probably my favourite rapper of all time or in teh same league as biggie and tupac. easily

Bobby Baccala

jonneymendoza wrote: »

His last album was a masterpiece/ better then encore. dunno why people diddnt like it.

he is probably my favourite rapper of all time or in teh same league as biggie and tupac. easily

Masterpiece? What albums are you comparing this to as a masterpiece?
Because i could name a rake of albums that make his last album look shít. which it was for the most part.

just out of interest, what other albums would you describe as a masterpiece?

jonneymendoza

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

Masterpiece? What albums are you comparing this to as a masterpiece?
Because i could name a rake of albums that make his last album look shít. which it was for the most part.

just out of interest, what other albums would you describe as a masterpiece?

Loads, Ti. Ludacris, 50 cent, jay z, kanye west etc etc. he is IMO better then all of those rappers hands down.

Nas and Eminem: same bracket ie world class rappers mate.

Bobby Baccala

jonneymendoza wrote: »

Loads, Ti. Ludacris, 50 cent, jay z, kanye west etc etc. he is IMO better then all of those rappers hands down.

Nas and Eminem: same bracket ie world class rappers mate.

I said what albums, not artists.

jonneymendoza

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

I said what albums, not artists.

well all their recent ones from those very same artists with the exception of kanye west last one which IMO was on par with eminem's last album.

Bobby Baccala

jonneymendoza wrote: »

well all their recent ones from those very same artists with the exception of kanye west last one which IMO was on par with eminem's last album.

None of their recent albums are even close to masterpieces. Any other ones you could think of because at the moment I'm not convinced. Eminems last work was lacking.

The MMLP or the SSLP could be labelled masterpieces but his last album? No way.

jonneymendoza

we all have different tastes in music

conor.hogan.2

Yes, we do.

But even Eminem himself would not say his last 2 albums were masterpieces. Most of the critics agreed too.

guitarzero

I remember kinda having a pretty bad notion of rappers back in the late 90's, even eminem. My sister bought his first and second album and it was like a slap in the face. I couldnt believe his word play and creativity, his ability to narrate and take on this character slim shady was just out of this world.

Jimmy Iovine

jonneymendoza wrote: »

well all their recent ones from those very same artists with the exception of kanye west last one which IMO was on par with eminem's last album.

That is the most outrageous comment I've read on this forum in a long, long time. I can't tell if you believe it, or whether you're just having a laugh.

"My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy" was a genuine masterpiece. Every single is amazingly good. There is no one else in the music industry that could have pulled this album off. It's on a scale that would intimidate other artists and if it was attempted by them it'd be a disaster. With Kanye at the helm it was always going to work.

The only way that "Recovery" could be mentioned in the same breath as it is with regard to album sales. On that front it wins by a landslide. The rest is pile of forgettable nonsense.

The production alone from Kanye on this album is better than every song that Eminem has produced in his entire career.

Everything about the actual album is better than Em has done since The Eminem Show.

conor.hogan.2

I suppose I should listen to MBDTF, my hip-hop consumption is stuck on 2009 pretty much with a few exceptions.

mufcboy1999

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

That is the most outrageous comment I've read on this forum in a long, long time. I can't tell if you believe it, or whether you're just having a laugh.

"My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy" was a genuine masterpiece. Every single is amazingly good. There is no one else in the music industry that could have pulled this album off. It's on a scale that would intimidate other artists and if it was attempted by them it'd be a disaster. With Kanye at the helm it was always going to work.

The only way that "Recovery" could be mentioned in the same breath as it is with regard to album sales. On that front it wins by a landslide. The rest is pile of forgettable nonsense.

The production alone from Kanye on this album is better than every song that Eminem has produced in his entire career.

Everything about the actual album is better than Em has done since The Eminem Show.

a great album no doubt but there was a fair few horrible features on it aswell as some songs being unnecessarily over cooked and way too long. Also flashes of that horrible dreaded auto-tune. As far as the short track list, Monster was terrible, never liked power from the moment i heard it and who will survive in america is a bit rubbish too other than that a great album though but a masterpiece production wise yes, as far as hip hop albums go? i dont think so.

I also think mbdtf was a bit over rated for the simple fact it was kanye's return to rap/hip hop after that auto-tune rubbish he released before mbdtf. Like i said Production was excellent though far superior to recovery but in terms of actual rapping, eminem wipes the floor with kanye. People are going to say em was shouting bla bla, he was angry and had a point to prove after that rubbish relapse, it reflected through his music, he still showed he's a top drawer mc.

Lastly mbdtf still doesn't come close to kanye's first 3 albums either imo and there's obviously a few here that dont rate recovery , thats fair enough but it was a great come back album, I really dont know what people were expecting, the old eminem is gone, never to return for obvious reasons.

Jimmy Iovine

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

I suppose I should listen to MBDTF, my hip-hop consumption is stuck on 2009 pretty much with a few exceptions.

Definitely. I didn't bother with it for a few months. Then I couldn't stop listening to it for months.

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

a great album no doubt but there was a fair few horrible features on it aswell as some songs being unnecessarily over cooked and way too long. Also flashes of that horrible dreaded auto-tune. As far as the short track list, Monster was terrible, never liked power from the moment i heard it and who will survive in america is a bit rubbish too other than that a great album though but a masterpiece production wise yes, as far as hip hop albums go? i dont think so.

I also think mbdtf was a bit over rated for the simple fact it was kanye's return to rap/hip hop after that auto-tune rubbish he released before mbdtf. Like i said Production was excellent though far superior to recovery but in terms of actual rapping, eminem wipes the floor with kanye. People are going to say em was shouting bla bla, he was angry and had a point to prove after that rubbish relapse, it reflected through his music, he still showed he's a top drawer mc.

Lastly mbdtf still doesn't come close to kanye's first 3 albums either imo and there's obviously a few here that dont rate recovery , thats fair enough but it was a great come back album, I really dont know what people were expecting, the old eminem is gone, never to return for obvious reasons.

The brilliant features far outweigh the bad ones in my opinion. Jigga (on So Appalled), Pusha T, Cyhi, Raekwon and so on.

I don't think I've ever gotten to the last track on the album so can't really comment on "Who Will Survive...". I really like "Power". It's one of the few tracks that doesn't have a featured artist. Kanye'll never be a top-5 MC but he did okay on it. The production was top notch.

"All of the Lights" is one of the craziest songs I've ever heard. 11 of the biggest singers around are all featured on it. Somehow you don't really recognise any of them bar Rihanna and Cudi. You have to strain your ears to notice the others. Only Kanye could pull of something on as grand scale as this and have some good verses as well.

Em showed on some recent songs that he still has the skills. I think he has been sold short with beats though. He is working a new album. I'll reserve my judgement until after then. It needs to be very good though. Another poor one (in a critical sense) and it'll be hard for him to bounce back. I predict it'll sell above 800,000 in it's first week on the back of a Rihanna/(other popular female singer of the moment) feature on the lead single.

Mr. Rager

I'm starting to hate Rihanna.

Jimmy Iovine

Mr. Rager wrote: »

I'm starting to hate Rihanna.

Probably due to her over-exposure. She seems to be on most songs these days. All she really does is the hook as well. If she was contributing verses then she'd be alright.

One of the biggest surprises about WTT was that she was nowhere to be seen on it. Thankfully Frank Ocean was on there instead of her.

The collab she did with Em on Recovery was a marketing master-stroke. It went 5 times platinum in the US and sold over a million in the UK, and had 1.2 million downloads in Korea of all places.

I can't think of two other artists who could sell as many copies of a single nowadays. Especially when people are downloading songs for free at an alarming rate.

Despite some her annoying faults and over-exposure I'll never get sick of looking at her though. She's unreal.

Mr. Rager

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Probably due to her over-exposure. She seems to be on most songs these days. All she really does is the hook as well. If she was contributing verses then she'd be alright.

One of the biggest surprises about WTT was that she was nowhere to be seen on it. Thankfully Frank Ocean was on there instead of her.

The collab she did with Em on Recovery was a marketing master-stroke. It went 5 times platinum in the US and sold over a million in the UK, and had 1.2 million downloads in Korea of all places.

I can't think of two other artists who could sell as many copies of a single nowadays. Especially when people are downloading songs for free at an alarming rate.

Despite some her annoying faults and over-exposure I'll never get sick of looking at her though. She's unreal.

I'm just sick of her featuring in hip-hop over and over again. She ruins good songs, and makes bad ones worse.

Don't get me wrong though, I'd still fcuk with that hoe :P

mufcboy1999

The brilliant features far outweigh the bad ones in my opinion. Jigga (on So Appalled), Pusha T, Cyhi, Raekwon and so on.

I don't think I've ever gotten to the last track on the album so can't really comment on "Who Will Survive...". I really like "Power". It's one of the few tracks that doesn't have a featured artist. Kanye'll never be a top-5 MC but he did okay on it. The production was top notch.

agree with most of that, i suppose liking individual tracks is down to personal preference .

"All of the Lights" is one of the craziest songs I've ever heard. 11 of the biggest singers around are all featured on it. Somehow you don't really recognise any of them bar Rihanna and Cudi. You have to strain your ears to notice the others. Only Kanye could pull of something on as grand scale as this and have some good verses as well.

great song alright but imo there's a few ft's that dont blend well and like you said its hard to notice most of them on it. I think the song could of been less messy tbh. Maybe only kanye could pull that of is right his production skills are amongst the best in the game.

Em showed on some recent songs that he still has the skills. I think he has been sold short with beats though. He is working a new album. I'll reserve my judgement until after then. It needs to be very good though. Another poor one (in a critical sense) and it'll be hard for him to bounce back. I predict it'll sell above 800,000 in it's first week on the back of a Rihanna/(other popular female singer of the moment) feature on the lead single

ems ear for beats was always his biggest flaw imo. He's got a very unique style and sound though and its probably the reason most of his beats are tailor made to suit him. I think he was quoted as saying he always picks or makes the beats first and then writes the song around it. Iv never been a fan of the majority of his beats though but his flow,lryics etc just totally eclipse his mediocre choices, em is one of those rappers where a beat will never get the better of him.

Em will always sell more than any rapper too, its a given that nobody can touch him in the sales bracket. I really do think his next album will be recovery-like in most ways as far as the commercial element to it but i do think em got a good balance between making a commercially excepted album in recovery and actually getting his point across about what he was going through.

I think recovery might grow on a few here in the future, theres some gems on it. Take it for what it is, a come back album. The content is so relevant to the cause, it is infact a recovery album in so many ways

jonneymendoza

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

That is the most outrageous comment I've read on this forum in a long, long time. I can't tell if you believe it, or whether you're just having a laugh.

"My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy" was a genuine masterpiece. Every single is amazingly good. There is no one else in the music industry that could have pulled this album off. It's on a scale that would intimidate other artists and if it was attempted by them it'd be a disaster. With Kanye at the helm it was always going to work.

The only way that "Recovery" could be mentioned in the same breath as it is with regard to album sales. On that front it wins by a landslide. The rest is pile of forgettable nonsense.

The production alone from Kanye on this album is better than every song that Eminem has produced in his entire career.

Everything about the actual album is better than Em has done since The Eminem Show.

rubbish.

Both albums were excellent. That was an amazing album by kanye. put jay z to shame mate but eminems last album was just as good IMO.

Kanye yes wins hands down in terms of production but for lyrics, eninem makes Kanye look like Justin bieber when rapping. That is why both albums are great and the last two good albums that have come out in hip hop for a very long time.

jonneymendoza

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

a great album no doubt but there was a fair few horrible features on it aswell as some songs being unnecessarily over cooked and way too long. Also flashes of that horrible dreaded auto-tune. As far as the short track list, Monster was terrible, never liked power from the moment i heard it and who will survive in america is a bit rubbish too other than that a great album though but a masterpiece production wise yes, as far as hip hop albums go? i dont think so.

I also think mbdtf was a bit over rated for the simple fact it was kanye's return to rap/hip hop after that auto-tune rubbish he released before mbdtf. Like i said Production was excellent though far superior to recovery but in terms of actual rapping, eminem wipes the floor with kanye. People are going to say em was shouting bla bla, he was angry and had a point to prove after that rubbish relapse, it reflected through his music, he still showed he's a top drawer mc.

Lastly mbdtf still doesn't come close to kanye's first 3 albums either imo and there's obviously a few here that dont rate recovery , thats fair enough but it was a great come back album, I really dont know what people were expecting, the old eminem is gone, never to return for obvious reasons.

thank u very much. exactly my point. Eminem destroyed Kanye as a rapper and last i heard, HIP HOP is about lyrics/flows first then beats.

Some of the best rappers alive rap on medicore beats like NAS. You all going to tell me that kanye west last album better then illmatic? lol

Bobby Baccala

jonneymendoza wrote: »

and last i heard, HIP HOP is about lyrics/flows first then beats.

Where did you here that? Because there's a lot more to Hip hop than rapping in fact Beats and DJing came before rapping when hip hop first came about.

Some of the best rappers alive rap on medicore beats like NAS. You all going to tell me that kanye west last album better then illmatic? lol

Nothing Kanye has brought out is better than illmatic, but that's down to the fact that the producers that worked on illmatic are greater than Kanye. There isn't many albums out there than can touch it production wise, silly comparison on your behalf man.


If you're gonna speak as if your word is bond then actually make sensible statements.

conor.hogan.2

Scrap that, not looking for more pointless discussion on this.

Underground

It's pretty much pointless to compare Em with Kanye.
Two completely different artists with completely different styles, almost polar opposites of each other.

jonneymendoza

Underground wrote: »

It's pretty much pointless to compare Em with Kanye.
Two completely different artists with completely different styles, almost polar opposites of each other.

No its not. They are both hip hop artists and therefore can be compared. By your definition, you cant compare ludacris to immortal technique(bet u dont even know him) for example.

jonneymendoza

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

Nothing Kanye has brought out is better than illmatic, but that's down to the fact that the producers that worked on illmatic are greater than Kanye. There isn't many albums out there than can touch it production wise, silly comparison on your behalf man.


If you're gonna speak as if your word is bond then actually make sensible statements.

Sorry but your wrong. various people here said dark twistes fanastasy is a "masterpiece" whilst recoery is not lol. if that is a masterpiece then surely its comparable to illmatic which is a masterpiece. get it?