Eminem

mufcboy1999

i find it hilarious when people compare em to his older stuff like their favorite rappers are still making good music/albums. I think eminem is a very easy target for the simple fact he's the biggest rapper on the planet, if you want to compare his new stuff to his old and call it rubbish etc you'd have to say the very exact same for the likes of jay z, nas ,50 cent, game, snoop, ice cube etc etc i could literally go on and on.

some of these rappers have set the bar so high with their early work that theirs only one way to go and thats down, the odd time we might get something good from them but not on the level of before because like it or not the music isnt the only factor in creating a classic... hype, publicity, mentors, era, fan base, brainwashing, bandwagons etc all have a role to play in creating a classic.

a bit stupid? i think not, im sure theirs plenty of underground material out their thats just as good but will never be deemed classics as the artists dont appeal to the public.

Iv said it a few times here before but really just think about it, why would eminem try to create the likes of another MMLP when he's already done it? why do you want the old eminem? would it not make sense for an artist to progress his music and actually mature as an artist like the recovery album reflected?

its actually mind boggling because if em gave us the same material as he did before you'd all be complaining that its recycled and pathetic that a 30/40 odd year old is rapping from the perspective of a man in his mid 20s of his face on drugs and the result of that was relapse.

I rest my case

conor.hogan.2

Nope, I can only speak personaly, and personaly the vast majority of what he has released since 2005/6 has been trash imo.

Trash by most peoples standards (not just when compared to his older stuff

He even apologized for one of the albums and scrapped pretty much everyone on his label before that.

Cube the guy that came out in the 80's yeah, that is a fair comparison. Em has been on top for 14 years (max) not 24 or longer with the likes of PE and KRS and even Rakim.

He does not need to create another MMLP just don't rap like an idiot in stupid accents about stupid things and don't get on stage looking like you are watching pain dry!

If Recovery/Relapse were released as one album without the nonsense and he we forgot about the rest of the music from say 2006-9 then it would be as good (yet different) to his older stuff.

mufcboy1999

He even apologized for one of the albums and scrapped pretty much everyone on his label before that.

its actually mind boggling because if em gave us the same material as he did before you'd all be complaining that its recycled and pathetic that a 30/40 odd year old is rapping from the perspective of a man in his mid 20s of his face on drugs and the result of that was relapse.

i guess its down to how much of a fan you are of the artist because you think the game's new material is better than his old and that he's also progressing but yet you cant see clear progression in eminem that was the recovery album something completely different than he's ever gave us

conor.hogan.2

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

i guess its down to how much of a fan you are of the artist because you think the game's new material is better than his old and that he's also progressing but yet you cant see clear progression in eminem that was the recovery album something completely different than he's ever gave us

You are pretty obsessed with the Game so I will just ignore that.

I am a fan of good rapping. Eagerly awaiting his next album if he releases one and if he does I know it will be a lot better than the last two abominations.

Recovery was good, but still nonsense besides a few songs as I said if he combined it with Recovery he would have had a great album.

Different, yes. Different as in good? Some of it yes, most of it no imo.

Do you honestly rate Recovery on any level near any of the rest of his work or any of the albums of 2009?

Bobby Baccala

All "veteran" rappers music has dipped in quality in the past few years years, I'll say that about any of my favourite rappers, not only eminem. He's not immune to criticism like some of his fans think he is.

superstoner90

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

For the love of god please tell me you're lying.

Lying about only ever hearing about Vanilla Ice out of this list

or


Vanilla ice calabrating with jedward?

mufcboy1999

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

You are pretty obsessed with the Game so I will just ignore that.

Recovery was good, but still nonsense besides a few songs as I said if he combined it with Recovery he would have had a great album.

no need for the sly dig, just trying to make sense of how your coming across by trying to prove how hypocritical and clueless your looking bashing one artist while one of your favorites has just put out by all means a shocker of an album but yet you somehow think he's getting better lol.

iv heard you call recovery rubbish more than once here too so no point in calling it a good album now. i assume you mean relapse and tbh their both completely different albums lets just clarify that , listen to the content they wouldn't blend with each other at all.

relapse was em trying his best to deliver his old content mashed up with depression and desperation not too mention doing this sober and in a pathetic accent while recovery was well a recovery in every sense of the word, it was a new eminem.

conor.hogan.2

Of course no rapper has had hit after hit.

But I do not know of any of them who:

1 - apologized for songs/albums
2 - had a universally hated new style/voice of rapping
3 - got on stage and looked like they were watching paint dry

I "bash" the artist that deserves the criticism - it is the topic being discussed….

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

it was a new eminem.

Agreed it had some great songs, and a lot of filler (mixing the best of those two albums would have made one good album).

( If you want to discuss Game, which you often seem to want to, start a new thread
Also Game is not my favorite rapper (even in top 10 of current rappers even whereas I would rate Eminem in my top10 of all time and neither of those two points affects my opinions on how bad Eminem has become (in general) over the last several years ) )

I bought 6 Eminem albums btw (altho the last two were presents) so I am a huge huge fan. First album I ever bought was SSLP.

mufcboy1999

Of course no rapper has had hit after hit.

But I do not know of any of them who:

1 - apologized for songs/albums
2 - had a universally hated new style/voice of rapping
3 - got on stage and looked like they were watching paint dry

I "bash" the artist that deserves the criticism - it is the topic being discussed….

i have nothing but admiration for the man for coming out and actually bashing his own music, he knew he short changed his fans and that took balls. How many rappers do you know that have put out rubbish albums and actually come out and said it? instead of claiming its better than all his previous work and all that rubbish.

Agreed it had some great songs, and a lot of filler (mixing the best of those two albums would have made one good album).

dont agree with that at all, an album is an album based on what it is. if you start going into that there's literally loads of albums from artists that would be great if mixed with their previous despite comebacks,problems etc. An album is judged on what is presented, if you want to play fantasy albums go make a playlist and put it on your ipod.

( If you want to discuss Game, which you often seem to want to, start a new thread
Also Game is not my favorite rapper (even in top 10 of current rappers even whereas I would rate Eminem in my top10 of all time and neither of those two points affects my opinions on how bad Eminem has become (in general) over the last several years ) )

nothing to do with discussing him, i was trying to make relevance of how hypocritical and to be honest confusing your argument is sounding by having such opposite opinions on one artist you think is improving and another that you dont when clearly the one your bashing has progressed his sound so much that he actually deserves credit not criticism imo.

conor.hogan.2

I agree, fair play to him for holding his hands up - it does take courage.

Comparing making relapse/recovery into one album is a unique situation. I am hardly saying what if The Chronic and 2001 were one album no am I?

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

nothing to do with discussing him, i was trying to make relevance of how hypocritical and to be honest confusing your argument is sounding by having such opposite opinions on one artist you think is improving and another that you dont when clearly the one your bashing has progressed his sound so much that he actually deserves credit not criticism imo.

No, you were diluting the discussion and diverting away from the points.
I think Game is improving but as I said I never bought any of his albums and he has done well without the help of 50 and Dre (for the most part) and that is "improving" imo not that it is in any way relevant to Eminem. (his sales have also plummeted like Eminems too, to scale)

Eminem is even terrible live now too.

Well (again) we will have to agree to disagree. But critically and sales wise he has plummeted.

mufcboy1999

Comparing making relapse/recovery into one album is a unique situation. I am hardly saying what if The Chronic and 2001 were one album no am I?

its still fantasy and what if talk, no point in it.

Eminem is even terrible live now too.

agreed but anyone on as much gear as he was on was going to have a fall from grace , look at dmx when he's sober compared to when he's of his face you'd cop it a mile away.

its a bit like getting piss*d and being the life of the party and having to do it the next night again sober, bound to be less energetic, entertaining etc.

people forget sometimes that depression is a serious illness , its not that easy to get over and clearly em imo still appears to suffer a bit and who can blame the man but at least he's trying and not hiding like he was for years.

Well (again) we will have to agree to disagree. But critically and sales wise he has plummeted.

no problem but in fairness what rapper hasnt plummeted sales wises but he still dominates the charts and sells more than most when he puts anything out no matter what people think of his music, still the biggest rapper hip hop has ever seen and tbh probably ever will.

conor.hogan.2

DMX is still good live, less so than before but in fairness he is not even comparable to paint dry Eminem at Coachella.

Ye, Depression he had it. Rapping should not be a priority for him if he was still seriously depressed. I doubt he still is depressed, he is off the sleeping pills and has released 2 albums.

Agreed he is the biggest rapper and will likely remain so for the foreseeable future, does not make him immune to criticism.

It was said in this forum (I think by Boom_Bap although I could be wrong) that Eminem could release anything and go multi-platinum so I don't think the selling high holds much weight. Comparing sales to his previous albums is fairer.

Bobby Baccala

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It was said in this forum (I think by Boom_Bap although I could be wrong) that Eminem could release anything and go multi-platinum so I don't think the selling high holds much weight. Comparing sales to his previous albums is fairer.

I said that a while back as well, i remember somebody else saying it too, (Jimmy i think)

conor.hogan.2

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

I said that a while back as well, i remember somebody else saying it too, (Jimmy i think)

My bad, I knew someone said it and it is quite true.

Not to say he is not an amazing rapper but he sells a lot more than other rappers of similar or better ability but then again so does Drake/Wayne/Wale/whoever and at least Eminem is actually very talented.

Jimmy Iovine

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

I said that a while back as well, i remember somebody else saying it too, (Jimmy i think)

Yea I probably did say it. He is one of only a small handful of people that can do it. He has fans now that weren't even alive when he released the Slim Shady LP.

It's kind of good in a way that there is someone who is on that level in hip hop. He's up there with the Gagas and Rihannas of the world as sad and all as it makes me to say that.

It's possible that he feels he has 3 classics in the bag and that he doesn't really need to work hard enough to get another. He genuinely could put out anything and it'd be a number 1. It'd be a disaster with the critics but maybe he doesn't think like that.

I don't know. I hope he can put out another album that gets back near to the level of his first 3 but then again I also hope one day that I'll have sex with Scarlett Johansson. One of them is more likely and delightfully it's probably the one involving me and Scarlett. She got divorced last year so I'm in with a big chance I think :P.

conor.hogan.2

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

He has fans now that weren't even alive when he released the Slim Shady LP.

Jesus, wait to make me feel old.

Jimmy Iovine

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Jesus, wait to make me feel old.

Ha I'm probably the same age as you. It doesn't make me feel as old as seeing youngsters making their debut for United who cost €20 million and are 3 years younger than me though.

Also thinking about it, I reckon the moment Em's music went downhill was when he stopped bleaching his hair. His first five albums (including Infinite and Encore to an extent) were very good. After that they were rubbish and I blame it all on his newer, more mature look.

We should start up a petition to get him to dye his hair again.

conor.hogan.2

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Ha I'm probably the same age as you. It doesn't make me feel as old as seeing youngsters making their debut for United who cost €20 million and are 3 years younger than me though.

Also thinking about it, I reckon the moment Em's music went downhill was when he stopped bleaching his hair. His first five albums (including Infinite and Eminem Show to an extent) were very good. After that they were rubbish and I blame it all on his newer, more mature look.

We should start up a petition to get him to dye his hair again.

Probably, but that makes me feel old that a majority of his fans are (probably) around the age I was when I bought MMLP.

I would go with the hiatus and the getting clean and Proof and his wife having more an impact on him getting worse but him "killing" off slim shady was when he stopped with the blonde (iirc) so you are right I suppose he started to "mature" but 100's of other MCs matured and continued to release consistent music.

Jimmy Iovine

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Probably, but that makes me feel old that a majority of his fans are (probably) around the age I was when I bought MMLP.

I would go with the hiatus and the getting clean and Proof and his wife having more an impact on him getting worse but him "killing" off slim shady was when he stopped with the blonde (iirc) so you are right I suppose he started to "mature" but 100's of other MCs matured and continued to release consistent music.

I dunno if he killed Shady off then. I think a few of his songs from Relapse were still in that Slim vibe. I haven't a copy to play now so I can't say for certain. He definitely wasn't on Recovery anyway.

The more I think about Em maturing and his newer music not being as good, the more I place the blame on him maturing in the first place. His first 3 albums are among the most emotionally intense albums ever released I feel. He was in a certain drug-addled mindset at that stage and he was angry. He was angry with everyone from his mother, to Kim, to George Bush to white America.

He then took time off to sober up and reflect on his life. When he came back he was angry with Kim Kardashian and Britney. I think he was more at peace with himself and he tried to focus his anger at the drugs. That didn't really work out.

He was slightly better on Recovery. It didn't work again though. There was a kind of emotional disconnect on some of the songs. He was rapping about the same kind of things that he did early in his career but they didn't have nearly the same impact.

The death of Proof, his overdose and subsequent rehabilitation have taken a lot out of him as can be expected. It has definitely taken a lot of the creative and venomous bite out of his music. For that reason I don't think he'll ever hit his previous heights again. He may well put out another "Stan" or "Lose Yourself", but he'll never again have a classic.

He will continue to sell gazillions. The EP he put out with Royce last year was only the third EP in chart history to get to number 1. If Royce did that same EP with anyone else and had the exact same chemistry with them it'd have struggled to sell 20,000 I think. Em has the commercial "it" factor that everyone else in the industry strives to get for one single. He has had it for 13 years now, and he doesn't look like slowing down soon.

horsebox09

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It was said in this forum (I think by Boom_Bap although I could be wrong) that Eminem could release anything and go multi-platinum so I don't think the selling high holds much weight. Comparing sales to his previous albums is fairer.

Em could take a crap in a cd case and it would sell millions, as proved with Encore :pac: so you're right about his sales

On a side note, it looks like I'm the only one on here that likes Relapse; it's certainly ahead of Recovery for me

conor.hogan.2

horsebox09 wrote: »

Em could take a crap in a cd case and it would sell millions, as proved with Encore :pac: so you're right about his sales

On a side note, it looks like I'm the only one on here that likes Relapse; it's certainly ahead of Recovery for me

Encore!?! I thought that was a pretty good album.

Yes, not even Eminem likes Relapse.

Kylo Ren

He really was the one to get me properly into rap. Got the Marshal Mathers LP and was hooked. Was about 7 or 8. Must of listened to it twice a day for about a year!

conor.hogan.2

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

I dunno if he killed Shady off then. I think a few of his songs from Relapse were still in that Slim vibe. I haven't a copy to play now so I can't say for certain. He definitely wasn't on Recovery anyway.

The more I think about Em maturing and his newer music not being as good, the more I place the blame on him maturing in the first place. His first 3 albums are among the most emotionally intense albums ever released I feel. He was in a certain drug-addled mindset at that stage and he was angry. He was angry with everyone from his mother, to Kim, to George Bush to white America.

He then took time off to sober up and reflect on his life. When he came back he was angry with Kim Kardashian and Britney. I think he was more at peace with himself and he tried to focus his anger at the drugs. That didn't really work out.

He was slightly better on Recovery. It didn't work again though. There was a kind of emotional disconnect on some of the songs. He was rapping about the same kind of things that he did early in his career but they didn't have nearly the same impact.

The death of Proof, his overdose and subsequent rehabilitation have taken a lot out of him as can be expected. It has definitely taken a lot of the creative and venomous bite out of his music. For that reason I don't think he'll ever hit his previous heights again. He may well put out another "Stan" or "Lose Yourself", but he'll never again have a classic.

He will continue to sell gazillions. The EP he put out with Royce last year was only the third EP in chart history to get to number 1. If Royce did that same EP with anyone else and had the exact same chemistry with them it'd have struggled to sell 20,000 I think. Em has the commercial "it" factor that everyone else in the industry strives to get for one single. He has had it for 13 years now, and he doesn't look like slowing down soon.

True. But he did the whole "killing of Em" in Curtains Call didn't he?

Agree with the rest, although there was some good tracks between his latest 2 albums but barely a handful.

horsebox09

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Encore!?! I thought that was a pretty good album.

Yes, not even Eminem likes Relapse.

Ass like That, Big Weenie, Rainman, Just Lose It, Encore is atrocious

Ah, Em took back his Relapse hate on the Bad Meets Evil EP

Deja Vu, Beautiful, Stay Wide Awake and Same Song & Dance > Recovery for me

danbrosnan

horsebox09 wrote: »

Ass like That, Big Weenie, Rainman, Just Lose It, Encore is atrocious

Ah, Em took back his Relapse hate on the Bad Meets Evil EP

Deja Vu, Beautiful, Stay Wide Awake and Same Song & Dance > Recovery for me

I don't know but am i the only one who taught that relapse had like 7 serious songs, just listened to it this morning on the way to work and said i'd post them ere:-

1:- Beautiful
2:- Same song and Dance
Deja Vu
3:- Hello
4:- Must be the Ganja
5:- My Mom (absolutely Hilarious)

Do people realize how hard it to release album after album and try to be different... I don't believe for a second that if eminem released a **** album it would sell, i think loyal fans would buy it because they like the artist... There is not a musician/rapper/painter/writer that has released a work of art that has been the best time after time... It's impossible...

Boom_Bap

danbrosnan wrote: »

There is not a musician/rapper/painter/writer that has released a work of art that has been the best time after time... It's impossible...

But there are plenty that have released great albums time after time while constantly evolving.
The Roots, Atmosphere, Outkast, Sage Francis, Aesop Rock, El-P all have done this.

But there are plenty that have been struggling, Nas is a prime example. He has has some great albums, but some really weak moments over the course of his releases. i dont think that there is anyone that can argue that. He has had some solid singles, but alot of filler on albums.

Even back in the day, Big Daddy Kane fell to this and was ridiculed for The Price of Darkness. Eric B. & Rakim got some negative press for one of thier albums too.

In relation to Eminem, I think that he lost his way but is slowly getting back to where he should be. There are one or 2 stong moments on Relapse, a few more on Recovery, and a huge stride forward on Bad meets Evil. Perhaps surrounding himself creatively with others has given him a boost. And with Slaughterhouse and Yela, he may get inspiration from them. and hopefully, they are strong enough to tell him if he is doing something wrong.

For every great artist, there is someone who should be 100% honest and trusted to give critical feedback. My personal view on Em is that he didnt respond to any feeback, or people were too afraid to speak up because he was a superstar.

I listened to an interview with Slug from Atmosphere recently and he credits where he is today because of Brother Ali, Sadiq and Murs because they are not afraid to tell him when he is doing something wrong. I think that Brother Ali has also said the same of Slug.

There is also a reading by Blueprint of the first chapter of his book about this. He basically talks about how a drunk guy after a show hijacked an interview and started giving him critical feeback on his music and career. He basically ignored the guy and got angry about what was being said to him. But 5 years later, he realises the guy was right and made complete sense. He has since used snippets of the interview on the intro to his most recent album. It took him about 5 years to accept criticism, musicians are a stubborn breed!

mufcboy1999

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

DMX is still good live, less so than before but in fairness he is not even comparable to paint dry Eminem at Coachella.

Ye, Depression he had it. Rapping should not be a priority for him if he was still seriously depressed. I doubt he still is depressed, he is off the sleeping pills and has released 2 albums.

Agreed he is the biggest rapper and will likely remain so for the foreseeable future, does not make him immune to criticism.

It was said in this forum (I think by Boom_Bap although I could be wrong) that Eminem could release anything and go multi-platinum so I don't think the selling high holds much weight. Comparing sales to his previous albums is fairer.

i never said dmx wasnt but my whole point was the paint dry em performing is still showing obvious signs of battling his demons and who can blame him. just because he is clean doesnt mean he mentally/emotionally over his problems, anyone can put on a brave face and pretend to be over it but what goes on behind closed doors we'l never know.

i never said he was immune to criticism either but i do think recovery is catching unfair criticism especially from a few here. Most of us have come to terms with relapse being a bad album and like we said even em has confessed it but recovery is a great album and an obvious sign that the man still makes great music.

once again for those of you wanting the old eminem , that was relapse and look how that turned out!

and on the sales side of things, crack a bottle set a digital record for a single when it was released and recovery is the highest selling album from any genre in 2010 on itunes so your wrong there. Every rappers sales have taking a bump not just eminem so that argument is pointless, this is the digital era where things work different.

http://www.hiphopdx.com/index/news/id.13273/title.eminems-recovery-named-itunes-best-selling-album-of-2010

conor.hogan.2

True we will never know. I would hope he would not be performing and releasing albums if he wasn't back to similar mental standings before the hiatus but who knows.
Personally I think it was the drugs that made him the hyped performer he was and know they are gone plus Proof was great on stage with him and he is also sadly gone.

Recovery is a good album. Nowhere near other albums of that year but a great album no doubt.

I do not want the old Eminem. I want progression and less filler. Boom_Bap listed a good set of artists around pretty much as long as Em and who have all progressed steadily.

Eminem always sells buckets and was already the highest selling rap artist before this and one of the highest in general but his selling took a massive massive dip with Relapse and increased a bit with Recovery.

Look at Jay-z sales (he is probably the 2nd highest rap star atm) they did not take such a massive dip.

mufcboy1999

True we will never know. I would hope he would not be performing and releasing albums if he wasn't back to similar mental standings before the hiatus but who knows.
Personally I think it was the drugs that made him the hyped performer he was and know they are gone plus Proof was great on stage with him and he is also sadly gone.

but he was releasing music in a bad mind frame, that was relapse !. id agree the drugs would do that to any of us, thats what i mean proof was a great hype man bound to miss him when he performs.

Recovery is a good album. Nowhere near other albums of that year but a great album no doubt.

i suppose thats down to opinion, it was one of my favorites from 2010.

I do not want the old Eminem. I want progression and less filler. Boom_Bap listed a good set of artists around pretty much as long as Em and who have all progressed steadily.

recovery was progression man, you cant say it wasnt. eminem never showed us that level of maturity on an album before , fair enough it might of had a bit of filler but tbh most albums do from mainstream rappers. the likes of nas, kanye and jay etc are all guilty of it.

Eminem always sells buckets and was already the highest selling rap artist before this and one of the highest in general but his selling took a massive massive dip with Relapse and increased a bit with Recovery.

this is what im trying to say, the digital era that we are in is completely different to that of the past. The sales are not consistent and 9/10 rappers have taken a hit.

im not including the likes of drake,niki and wayne because their pop and how they pass for hip hop is beyond me but take the likes of rick ross (considered the hottest rapper atm) never does big numbers, never has had a platinum album or album go gold 1st week my point sales are dipping for everyone even eminem.

you know yourself how easy it is to download music instead of paying for it, this is the digital era. long gone are the days when you had to actually go out buy what you want to hear.

Look at Jay-z sales (he is probably the 2nd highest rap star atm) they did not take such a massive dip.

ye your right think it was just under 500'000 for bp3, but thats it jay z has always been in and around that figure tbh as far as 1st week sales go but Its easy to think because he had consecutive number 1 albums that he sells great.

jay z's albums combined are whats impressive but thats what like 11 albums and 2 or 3 collab albums? the likes of 50 has done close to jay z's numbers with 3 albums and thats a fact with the likes of get rich not far away from going diamond, think its 8 or 9 times platinum. jay z was never up with the likes of em in regards to sales and the only reason bp3 sold well enough was because it was his most commercial album so far with pop like singles with rhianna etc.

being beyonce's husband with pop stars like rhianna to call upon when he needs to break the commercial market has helped keep jay z relevant because his last few albums have been absolute muck and iv got all of them bar kingdom come and the dynasty. kanye saved him on WTT, jay was incredibly hard to listen to on it imo.

conor.hogan.2

All opinion and my eyes are killing me so I won't respond to all.

Recovery was progression on some of the songs but it was nowhere near as "mature" as several other previous eminem songs or albums.

Jay-Z has never done Eminem numbers, no one hip-hop has done Eminem numbers. But my point is Jay-z has not taking such a massive hit in numbers unlike Eminem so it is not just the "digital era" to blame.

Jay-Z has always played down Beyonce. They didn't even say they were dating for years. Plus Jay-Z helped bring Rihanna up and now he shouldn't have her on his songs?

50 has some amazing numbers albums wise (the first few anyway) but then again he was working crazy hard building a strong strong new york buzz for years and then signed with Shady/Aftermath so not shocking. Jay is Jay, his numbers are pretty much all his much like Eminems.