Is Katie Taylor Ireland best athlete

walshb

gene_tunney wrote: »

Nobody gets punched in the face in the 400m.

I love these one liners in these debates. No dicking about. Straight to the point:D

efb

To answer the OPs question I would say no. Maybe, but not at the moment.
An Olympic gold medal may change that.

SSK

Very interesting thread with a lot of good points made in the midst of all the sniping.

The question itself is difficult to answer really and is one that is definitely biased towards athletes insofar as success in athletics is predicated almost entirely on the athletes "athleticism". Sure there's obviously technique involved which improves their athleticism and a certain amount of tactics involved, particularly in distance races but at the end of the day the most successful athletes have freakish physical attributes which got them to the top of their respective disciplines.

What the question doesn't really take into account of is the huge amount of specific skills which footballers, rugby players, hurlers, tennis players, boxers and so on have to work on and develop in additional to their athleticism. If your definition of "greatest athlete" includes having the best skills/technique in their particular sport then athletes are at a disadvantage because there is a comparative lack of skills that they can/need to work on.

Therefore it's very difficult to say who the greatest Irish athlete ever is because your not comparing like with like. Even within individual sports its a difficult comparison to make because if for instance you took Keane V Brady in soccer. Brady was the better player IMO, he had better technique and skill level than Keane, but Keane was probably the better athlete because he had a huge engine, great strength on the ball and was very quick in his prime but while he had very good skills, they weren't a patch on Brady.

If I was taking a narrow definition of the term Greatest Athlete I would have the following as my Top 5 (I'm only including people I have seen at least a decent bit of footage of) and doesn't take into account to any great extent their technical proficiency in their given sport(s). I have only included one athlete per sport as I wanted to go for a bit of diversity but I could have included a couple of more athletes and boxers particularly as they are the sports probably most suited to the definition. Obviously this is my opinion and should be taken as such...

1. Sonia
2. Taylor
3. Jim Stynes
4. David Wallace
5. Jack O'Shea

If we were to take a broader definition of greatest sportsperson ever it would have a greater emphasis on skills, technique, leadership and achievements and would also bring into the equation the "non-athletic" sports such as golf, snooker and so on and would also take into account the competition aspect of the sport (i.e. how difficult is it to get to the top). Sonia and maybe Taylor (on her achievements to date) would remain in my top 5 from the above but the likes of BOD, Keane, Brady, Harrington, McIlroy, McCoy and so on would have great claims.

In summary if you don't want to read all the waffle: Greatest Athlete is too narrow a definition to truly get a satisfactory outcome, but for arguments sake Sonia is the greatest IMO.

walshb

SSK wrote: »

Very interesting thread with a lot of good points made in the midst of all the sniping.

The question itself is difficult to answer really and is one that is definitely biased towards athletes insofar as success in athletics is predicated almost entirely on the athletes "athleticism". Sure there's obviously technique involved which improves their athleticism and a certain amount of tactics involved, particularly in distance races but at the end of the day the most successful athletes have freakish physical attributes which got them to the top of their respective disciplines.

What the question doesn't really take into account of is the huge amount of specific skills which footballers, rugby players, hurlers, tennis players, boxers and so on have to work on and develop in additional to their athleticism. If your definition of "greatest athlete" includes having the best skills/technique in their particular sport then athletes are at a disadvantage because there is a comparative lack of skills that they can/need to work on.

Therefore it's very difficult to say who the greatest Irish athlete ever is because your not comparing like with like. Even within individual sports its a difficult comparison to make because if for instance you took Keane V Brady in soccer. Brady was the better player IMO, he had better technique and skill level than Keane, but Keane was probably the better athlete because he had a huge engine, great strength on the ball and was very quick in his prime but while he had very good skills, they weren't a patch on Brady.

If I was taking a narrow definition of the term Greatest Athlete I would have the following as my Top 5 (I'm only including people I have seen at least a decent bit of footage of) and doesn't take into account to any great extent their technical proficiency in their given sport(s). I have only included one athlete per sport as I wanted to go for a bit of diversity but I could have included a couple of more athletes and boxers particularly as they are the sports probably most suited to the definition. Obviously this is my opinion and should be taken as such...

1. Sonia
2. Taylor
3. Jim Stynes
4. David Wallace
5. Jack O'Shea

If we were to take a broader definition of greatest sportsperson ever it would have a greater emphasis on skills, technique, leadership and achievements and would also bring into the equation the "non-athletic" sports such as golf, snooker and so on and would also take into account the competition aspect of the sport (i.e. how difficult is it to get to the top). Sonia and maybe Taylor (on her achievements to date) would remain in my top 5 from the above but the likes of BOD, Keane, Brady, Harrington, McIlroy, McCoy and so on would have great claims.

In summary if you don't want to read all the waffle: Greatest Athlete is too narrow a definition to truly get a satisfactory outcome, but for arguments sake Sonia is the greatest IMO.

Very balanced and fair post, and I think your choice is good. I just think that katie deserves it more than Sonia, by a hair.

As for the term athlete. One poster wanted to believe that only those in T&F are athletes. I disagree here. A great athlete to me is one who can use all of his/her body in a physical way to a very high standard.

A gymnast, boxer, NFL player, basketball player, soccer player, decathlete (the ultimate). The runner or sprinter to me are great, but they do not need to have the same all around body mechanics as other sports athletes. The may well have the all around capability, but to run and sprint does not require these alla round talents as much as other sports require them.

cowzerp

SSK wrote: »

Very interesting thread with a lot of good points made in the midst of all the sniping.

The question itself is difficult to answer really and is one that is definitely biased towards athletes insofar as success in athletics is predicated almost entirely on the athletes "athleticism". Sure there's obviously technique involved which improves their athleticism and a certain amount of tactics involved, particularly in distance races but at the end of the day the most successful athletes have freakish physical attributes which got them to the top of their respective disciplines.

What the question doesn't really take into account of is the huge amount of specific skills which footballers, rugby players, hurlers, tennis players, boxers and so on have to work on and develop in additional to their athleticism. If your definition of "greatest athlete" includes having the best skills/technique in their particular sport then athletes are at a disadvantage because there is a comparative lack of skills that they can/need to work on.

Therefore it's very difficult to say who the greatest Irish athlete ever is because your not comparing like with like. Even within individual sports its a difficult comparison to make because if for instance you took Keane V Brady in soccer. Brady was the better player IMO, he had better technique and skill level than Keane, but Keane was probably the better athlete because he had a huge engine, great strength on the ball and was very quick in his prime but while he had very good skills, they weren't a patch on Brady.

If I was taking a narrow definition of the term Greatest Athlete I would have the following as my Top 5 (I'm only including people I have seen at least a decent bit of footage of) and doesn't take into account to any great extent their technical proficiency in their given sport(s). I have only included one athlete per sport as I wanted to go for a bit of diversity but I could have included a couple of more athletes and boxers particularly as they are the sports probably most suited to the definition. Obviously this is my opinion and should be taken as such...

1. Sonia
2. Taylor
3. Jim Stynes
4. David Wallace
5. Jack O'Shea

If we were to take a broader definition of greatest sportsperson ever it would have a greater emphasis on skills, technique, leadership and achievements and would also bring into the equation the "non-athletic" sports such as golf, snooker and so on and would also take into account the competition aspect of the sport (i.e. how difficult is it to get to the top). Sonia and maybe Taylor (on her achievements to date) would remain in my top 5 from the above but the likes of BOD, Keane, Brady, Harrington, McIlroy, McCoy and so on would have great claims.

In summary if you don't want to read all the waffle: Greatest Athlete is too narrow a definition to truly get a satisfactory outcome, but for arguments sake Sonia is the greatest IMO.

Great Post-but like Bren i favour Katie but your post is very balanced and well thought out.

SSK

Walshb your definition of athlete is pretty much the exact same as what I used as the criteria for choosing my list. That is a combination of fitness, pace, strength, jump ability, ability to withstand hits and so on. Obviously a decathalete is pretty much the pinnacle of athleticism using that sort of definition but unfortunately we're not in the business of producing world class decathaletes.

And for me it was Sonia over Katie by a small bit at this moment in time but that's with the benefit of having Sonia's entire career to view in hindsight and having not seen more than a handful of Katie's fights. After the Olympics I could have an entirely different opinion.

walshb

SSK wrote: »

And for me it was Sonia over Katie by a small bit at this moment in time but that's with the benefit of having Sonia's entire career to view in hindsight and having not seen more than a handful of Katie's fights. After the Olympics I could have an entirely different opinion.

As boxers' go Katie is stunning. I mean, her feet, speed, coordination, balance, execution of punches, combinations, and obvious stamina and toughness, make her to me a more complete athlete than I have seen from many others.

I guess runners are penalised in some way for me, because a runner runs. There is not much more mechanics to it. They run, run fast, hard and try to keep pace and form.

It is in our DNA to run, and some of the best runners ever didn't look aestehtically great either. Look at Paula Radcliffe. I run nicer than her, but I would never out run her. Sonia's running form was far from beautiful either. I mean, she was no Wilson Kipketer. But she was successful and top class.

Johnson's running technique was far from superb or technical, but he was still so so so fast. Compare his form and technique to Carl Lewis, and to me Carl's looked so much more graceful; but Johnson was faster over 200 metres.

As for the athletics, no matter how hard I look I cannot look past the decathlete. They are overall the superior athletes to any individual runner/sprinter, or jumper, pole vaulter, hurdler, hammer, shot, javelin, high jumper, triple jumper.

They may not get to the elite level in any one discipline, although JJK in the heptathlon was a top class long jumper, and Jessica Ennis is a top class hurdler as well. But, their body, mechanics and innate talent as athletes tops any other T&F competitor. I know all athletes are usually born, but the term applies that bit more in the decathlon. Their body's are created to allow them to do what they do so well.

A boxer to be elite or tops. needs to have that coordination and balance and speed and oevarall mnechanics to make it to the top. And also they need that stamina, chin and mental toughness to competer in sucha tough, and barabric sport. I love the sport, but that barbarity element is what makes boxers' unique in the world of sport.

Spazdarn

A practical mirror version of this debate is going on in the rte.ie comments pages.

Couldn't stand to go through it all again as enjoyable as this debate is, there's no definitely conclusion

barney4001

walshb wrote: »

As boxers' go Katie is stunning. I mean, her feet, speed, coordination, balance, execution of punches, combinations, and obvious stamina and toughness, make her to me a more complete athlete than I have seen from many others.

I guess runners are penalised in some way for me, because a runner runs. There is not much more mechanics to it. They run, run fast, hard and try to keep pace and form.

It is in our DNA to run, and some of the best runners ever didn't look aestehtically great either. Look at Paula Radcliffe. I run nicer than her, but I would never out run her. Sonia's running form was far from beautiful either. I mean, she was no Wilson Kipketer. But she was successful and top class.

Johnson's running technique was far from superb or technical, but he was still so so so fast. Compare his form and technique to Carl Lewis, and to me Carl's looked so much more graceful; but Johnson was faster over 200 metres.

As for the athletics, no matter how hard I look I cannot look past the decathlete. They are overall the superior athletes to any individual runner/sprinter, or jumper, pole vaulter, hurdler, hammer, shot, javelin, high jumper, triple jumper.

They may not get to the elite level in any one discipline, although JJK in the heptathlon was a top class long jumper, and Jessica Ennis is a top class hurdler as well. But, their body, mechanics and innate talent as athletes tops any other T&F competitor. I know all athletes are usually born, but the term applies that bit more in the decathlon. Their body's are created to allow them to do what they do so well.

A boxer to be elite or tops. needs to have that coordination and balance and speed and oevarall mnechanics to make it to the top. And also they need that stamina, chin and mental toughness to competer in sucha tough, and barabric sport. I love the sport, but that barbarity element is what makes boxers' unique in the world of sport.

you summed up Katie to a t ,no other Irish sports person has a major winning record like hers the Olympics should crown her the greatest ever from Ireland

rothai

Paul brady or Sean kelly. in my opinion the 2 best athletes.

Dead Kennedys

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/olympics-2012/irish-news/bray-boxer-katie-taylor-qualifies-for-olympics-continues-bid-for-fourth-world-title-in-china-3110090.html


Congratulations Katie! Looking forward to see her in action in London.

corny

walshb wrote: »

Johnson's running technique was far from superb or technical, but he was still so so so fast.

Michael Johnson? Seriously?:eek:

He was a bit upright and unconventional maybe but no sprinter worked harder on good technique than Johnson. He was poetry in motion with an unbelievably fluid style. Absolute economy of effort was his forte, not raw speed.

walshb

corny wrote: »

Michael Johnson? Seriously?:eek:

He was a bit upright and unconventional maybe but no sprinter worked harder on good technique than Johnson. He was poetry in motion with an unbelievably fluid style. Absolute economy of effort was his forte, not raw speed.

I know, I know. It just looked a little funny. It wasn't the norm, that's all.

You know, when I look at him regularly, and particularly over 400, where he is not flat out, it is quite impressive.

token56

rothai wrote: »

Paul brady or Sean kelly. in my opinion the 2 best athletes.

Indeed I dont know why Paul brady is not being mentioned more in this thread, brilliant achievements and really unmatched in his sport.

Pisco Sour

token56 wrote: »

Indeed I dont know why Paul brady is not being mentioned more in this thread, brilliant achievements and really unmatched in his sport.

It would be akin to picking the ultra runner Tony Mangan over John Treacy. Some sports are niche and that's the way their champions will be regarded I'm afraid to say.

token56

04072511 wrote: »

It would be akin to picking the ultra runner Tony Mangan over John Treacy. Some sports are niche and that's the way their champions will be regarded I'm afraid to say.

Indeed but I would also regard the 60 kg division of amateur female boxing as relatively niche not that it should belittle anyone's achievement, in particular Katie's. At any given time in a sport all a person can do is compete against those around them. People will judge performances differently depending on the era they are in or the popularity of the sport but the person competing can't really control that, and if they beat everyone who poses a challenge what more can they do. It make these arguments futile really because no one is everyone going to agree on the criteria for what makes some the GOAT.

Inishowen lady

It's long been a bug bearer of mine, how little credit Katie gets because ladies boxing is a "low profile" sport. Because it is low profile, it shouldn't take away from what she has achieved and her dominance in world boxing for the past few years- not to mention her achievements on the soccer pitch.

Sky Sports seem to give Katie a lot more exposure and credit than RTE give her, although I think Sky may sponsor her, but it annoy's me that Irish media are reporting the England soccer squad ahead of Katie (who lets face it, is our main medal contender) making it to the olympics today.

Dublin Red Devil

Team Taylor 2012. Go to London and smash everyone. bring back the gold

fryup

is katie very religious in a born-again Christan type of way??

i heard her on the radio during the week talking about how "god" has helped her in her career

walshb

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

Team Taylor 2012. Go to London and smash everyone. bring back the gold

Tomorrow's final should be a real good indicator of the task ahead in London. I expect a very competitive fight. I hope the judging is honest and fair.

washman3

Is Katie's fight shown on RTE this morning and at what time??

Dan man

washman3 wrote: »

Is Katie's fight shown on RTE this morning and at what time??

8am Saturday morning, RTE One.

washman3

Katie wins 11-7
without doubt our finest athlete..:):):)

Patsy fyre

She only has to win one game at the Olympics to win a medal, couldn't be easier :pac:

philstar

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

bit of a joke really, sure she would prefer more of a challenge

jockeyboard

Anyone know what time they arrive at dublin airport tomorrow? Would love to go and cheer her on (in a non stalker type way???? Or is even asking that question passing that line??)

paddyandy

On her way to "manhood" she is .

Dodge

philstar wrote: »

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

bit of a joke really, sure she would prefer more of a challenge

Well the challenge has been done in qualifying.

Darren Sutherland won 2 fights in 2008 to win a medal. Most of the women will do the same.

In other sports there's a straight final in the Olympics rather than 3/4 rounds in world championships (eg some Rowing events)

Not that big a deal

barney4001

Congratulations to Katie and her team for a great result,i thought the first 2 rounds the girls were mirror images of each others styles,well done the both of them

efb

4 wins in a row! Go Katie!