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Paddy Power Customer Service - Shocking!

  • 01-05-2012 4:03am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭


    I play Blackjack in Paddy Power live casino. I have had problems with freezing every now and then and when I report it I am told it is my connection. However I have noticed that when I log out and back in a lot of other players that were playing were also logged out.

    I was playing online poker tonight and it froze on 2 occasions. I said it in the chat box during the game , but no one replied. The freezing didn't affect the outcome of the games in question, so I didn't take it further. However the 3rd time it did. I had 2 fours, and then could not hit , so I reported it and the guy in the poker chat gave me a reference and told me to speak with customer service..

    The guy in customer service seemed like someone had just woken him up or something!

    Here is the conversation:

    Brandon (Responding)

    Brandon Hi, my name is Brandon. How may I help you?

    You Hey Brandon, I was playing in Live Casino

    You and the game froze

    Brandon Hello xxx.

    You the guy game me a reference

    You reference number 22xxxxx

    You And said to follow up with customer service

    You Does that mean you?

    Brandon Ill need to verify your complete name, username, email, and the last 4 four digits of the active card on the account. Thanks.

    Brandon There are delays in when a credit can post to your Paddy account from live casino.

    You name xxxxxxxxxxx email xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx card is xxxx

    Brandon Also, we will be unable to see the game for at least 15 mins after the game has ended.

    Brandon When did the game end?

    You yes it was about 30 mins ago

    You I just wasn't sure if someone was to contact me about it, or if I was to contact you

    You It was only 5 euro like

    You but i was dealt 2 fours, then never received any further options as the screen just froze

    Brandon How much was the stake?

    You Only 5 euro

    Brandon It was the game you played correct?

    You yes

    You it happened twice earlier in the night, but it didn't affect the outcome of the game on those instances

    You I did mention it in chat at the time

    Brandon Ok.

    Brandon The dealer had 18

    You yep

    Brandon You had 17

    Brandon So you lost that hand.

    You no I had 2 fours

    Brandon No the dealer had 2 fours.

    Brandon YOu had a 2 jack and a 5

    Brandon The dealer had 2 4's and a 10

    You no this must be a different game

    Brandon I am looking at the last game on your accont

    You No it wasnt the last game I played

    You it was the game I gave you the reference number to

    You ci 22xxxx

    You I played other hands afterwards whilst talkin to the Assistance guy in chat

    Brandon You first said it was your last hand played?

    Brandon Ok I found the game.

    Brandon Dealer had 5 - 9 -4

    Brandon You had only two 4's.

    You yes

    You thats the game

    Brandon Ok.

    Brandon So that was a loss.

    Brandon Dealer had 18 ...you had 8

    You Do you undestand how blackjack works?

    Brandon Yes.

    You So why on earth would I stick on 8?

    Brandon You werent the only one that did that in that game.

    You And no, I never said to you it was the last game I played?

    Brandon Another player staye don 8 as well...

    You And you don't think that is odd?

    Brandon Either way...I am refunding your 5.00 as a one time courtsey.

    You Clearly the problem of freezing didn't just affect me?

    You No

    You hold on

    You I don't want it refunded as a courtesy.

    Brandon It appears that you may have been not the only player with that issue...as I mentioned before..

    You Clearly there was a mistake and the site froze. As you said it affected more than just me.. It should be refunded because the site did not work, nothing to do with courtesy

    Brandon Or do you not want the credit?

    You I do want the credit, but I don't appreciate you saying that I am getting it out of courtesy, when infact it was not my fault something was wrong. It should be refunded automatically because there was a problem with the site

    Brandon I can have this esclated...which would take 24-48 hours to resolve, but I am correcting this in a faster manner without specific technical proof needed to give the credit..It appears that it may have happened two 2 other players as well.

    Brandon I I have credited the 5.00 back to the account as if it was a voided game.

    Brandon Your balance is now xxxxx

    Brandon The 5 is in your general balance. So you can use it as you need to.

    Brandon Is there anything else I can help you with?




    Now this is not the first issue I have had with Paddy Power, they must have the worst customer service in the country. They seem to use the same defence all the time in relation to the faults with live casino. They blame internet connection and the ISP.. However in the conversation above, this Brandon guy clearly says it happened to 2 other players. Yet still he was refunding my as a "one time courtesy"? So, even though the site had a technical issue, I am only being refunded as a one time courtesy, not because they cocked up?


    Anyone else have problems with Paddy Power Customer Service? Or is it just me?

    I feel like I am complaining to them all the time recently, and they are making out it is always my fault, they seem to always confuse issues, more than one person replies to the one complaint and then they make out they are doing you a favour by giving your money back..

    :mad:


Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 495 ✭✭bootybouncer


    I closed my account with them..............rubbish service all together, winners pending for days etc, online chat support awful etc

    Funny thing is I actually applied for two jobs with them and have been both shot down twice by hr staff of foreign extraction.................... paddy power my hole


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,185 ✭✭✭tinodz


    I've heard horror stories (almost weekly), but never had a problem with PP yes - and they offer some good odds at times (Enhanced Specials), so I stick with them.

    At least you got your money back - even though it was a hassle/

    I have dealt with customer services (non bookies related) many times, and trying to get back a few Euro is like pulling teeth.

    The only company I can in any way speak fondly off is Amazon


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,943 ✭✭✭abouttobebanned


    They are absolutely terrible.

    I've had a few run ins with them in my time also.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭dchris


    I got an email from "Joe" in customer services today.. Saying "I am sorry to hear that you felt you had received poor service from us"

    Seriously like, what is with them? I don't feel like i got poor service, I did get poor service? I would suggest they were scripted from a legal department if their spelling/grammar/syntax wasn't so bad.

    I deposited to my account during Cheltenham on my phone and the amount was taken from my Bank account twice. They never sorted it out, and blamed my phone on this occasion.

    I deposited to receive a bonus offer which was offered on screen after I logged into my account, only to be told that it was for new customers. ( Why would they be offering bonuses for new customers on the home page after existing customers login?)

    They are inept






    I


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,632 ✭✭✭✭okidoki987


    I was playing online poker tonight and it froze on 2 occasions

    Used to happen to me all the time, drives me bananas when nobody will admit it's their fault and they kept trying to say it's my Internet connection.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,166 ✭✭✭Cheeky_gal


    dchris wrote: »
    I play Blackjack in Paddy Power live casino. I have had problems with freezing every now and then and when I report it I am told it is my connection. However I have noticed that when I log out and back in a lot of other players that were playing were also logged out.

    I was playing online poker tonight and it froze on 2 occasions. I said it in the chat box during the game , but no one replied. The freezing didn't affect the outcome of the games in question, so I didn't take it further. However the 3rd time it did. I had 2 fours, and then could not hit , so I reported it and the guy in the poker chat gave me a reference and told me to speak with customer service..

    The guy in customer service seemed like someone had just woken him up or something!

    Here is the conversation:

    Brandon (Responding)

    Brandon Hi, my name is Brandon. How may I help you?

    You Hey Brandon, I was playing in Live Casino

    You and the game froze

    Brandon Hello xxx.

    You the guy game me a reference

    You reference number 22xxxxx

    You And said to follow up with customer service

    You Does that mean you?

    Brandon Ill need to verify your complete name, username, email, and the last 4 four digits of the active card on the account. Thanks.

    Brandon There are delays in when a credit can post to your Paddy account from live casino.

    You name xxxxxxxxxxx email xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx card is xxxx

    Brandon Also, we will be unable to see the game for at least 15 mins after the game has ended.

    Brandon When did the game end?

    You yes it was about 30 mins ago

    You I just wasn't sure if someone was to contact me about it, or if I was to contact you

    You It was only 5 euro like

    You but i was dealt 2 fours, then never received any further options as the screen just froze

    Brandon How much was the stake?

    You Only 5 euro

    Brandon It was the game you played correct?

    You yes

    You it happened twice earlier in the night, but it didn't affect the outcome of the game on those instances

    You I did mention it in chat at the time

    Brandon Ok.

    Brandon The dealer had 18

    You yep

    Brandon You had 17

    Brandon So you lost that hand.

    You no I had 2 fours

    Brandon No the dealer had 2 fours.

    Brandon YOu had a 2 jack and a 5

    Brandon The dealer had 2 4's and a 10

    You no this must be a different game

    Brandon I am looking at the last game on your accont

    You No it wasnt the last game I played

    You it was the game I gave you the reference number to

    You ci 22xxxx

    You I played other hands afterwards whilst talkin to the Assistance guy in chat

    Brandon You first said it was your last hand played?

    Brandon Ok I found the game.

    Brandon Dealer had 5 - 9 -4

    Brandon You had only two 4's.

    You yes

    You thats the game

    Brandon Ok.

    Brandon So that was a loss.

    Brandon Dealer had 18 ...you had 8

    You Do you undestand how blackjack works?

    Brandon Yes.

    You So why on earth would I stick on 8?

    Brandon You werent the only one that did that in that game.

    You And no, I never said to you it was the last game I played?

    Brandon Another player staye don 8 as well...

    You And you don't think that is odd?

    Brandon Either way...I am refunding your 5.00 as a one time courtsey.

    You Clearly the problem of freezing didn't just affect me?

    You No

    You hold on

    You I don't want it refunded as a courtesy.

    Brandon It appears that you may have been not the only player with that issue...as I mentioned before..

    You Clearly there was a mistake and the site froze. As you said it affected more than just me.. It should be refunded because the site did not work, nothing to do with courtesy

    Brandon Or do you not want the credit?

    You I do want the credit, but I don't appreciate you saying that I am getting it out of courtesy, when infact it was not my fault something was wrong. It should be refunded automatically because there was a problem with the site

    Brandon I can have this esclated...which would take 24-48 hours to resolve, but I am correcting this in a faster manner without specific technical proof needed to give the credit..It appears that it may have happened two 2 other players as well.

    Brandon I I have credited the 5.00 back to the account as if it was a voided game.

    Brandon Your balance is now xxxxx

    Brandon The 5 is in your general balance. So you can use it as you need to.

    Brandon Is there anything else I can help you with?




    Now this is not the first issue I have had with Paddy Power, they must have the worst customer service in the country. They seem to use the same defence all the time in relation to the faults with live casino. They blame internet connection and the ISP.. However in the conversation above, this Brandon guy clearly says it happened to 2 other players. Yet still he was refunding my as a "one time courtesy"? So, even though the site had a technical issue, I am only being refunded as a one time courtesy, not because they cocked up?


    Anyone else have problems with Paddy Power Customer Service? Or is it just me?

    I feel like I am complaining to them all the time recently, and they are making out it is always my fault, they seem to always confuse issues, more than one person replies to the one complaint and then they make out they are doing you a favour by giving your money back..

    :mad:

    Maybe he felt you were coming on to him? You did kiss him several times...Very forward OP


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53 ✭✭R0UF


    Cheeky_gal wrote: »
    Maybe he felt you were coming on to him? You did kiss him several times...Very forward OP

    Any need to quote the whole post for such a crap joke?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭dchris


    R0UF wrote: »
    Any need to quote the whole post for such a crap joke?

    In saying that, did I have to quote the entire conversation to prove Paddy Power is a load of crap :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    They've been using the internet connection excuse for at least 5 years. Every time, my connection has been just fine to every other site. Result: customer lost.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,166 ✭✭✭Cheeky_gal


    R0UF wrote: »
    Any need to quote the whole post for such a crap joke?

    Lighten up :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭dchris


    I found it funny


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭dchris


    I must admit to something though. Despite all the **** I have had with Paddy Power, it pains me to say that their online blackjack is the best I know. And their site layout is also really user friendly, unlike a lot of others..

    I play poker nearly every day, it supplements my income, this week alone I have doubled my weekly wage, and I am a very controlled player, I pocket my stake as soon as I double it, and then at regular intervals etc. I play Black Jack when I have a lot of spare cash. I must admit I do quite well.. The problem I have with Paddy Power is the **** customer service, which borders on rude and abusive and dodgy technology which was proven from their site crashing on every big race day in the year

    I just wish there was an alternative site for me. I live too far away from the Fitzwilliam now, so playing online is my only option.


    Anyone know a really good site that can give Paddy Power a run for their money?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭dchris


    sorry, didn't realise Sh 1t was a banned word


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 712 ✭✭✭Formation


    Cheeky_gal wrote: »
    Maybe he felt you were coming on to him? You did kiss him several times...Very forward OP
    why do so few women have a good sense of humour?

    Why do they say they look for it in a partner when they don't know what it is.

    I'm on the phone, that was a lot of unnecessary scrolling.

    A BJ would make up for that though or just a JK off would do.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 712 ✭✭✭Formation


    dchris wrote: »
    I must admit to something though. Despite all the **** I have had with Paddy Power, it pains me to say that their online blackjack is the best I know. And their site layout is also really user friendly, unlike a lot of others..

    I play poker nearly every day, it supplements my income, this week alone I have doubled my weekly wage, and I am a very controlled player, I pocket my stake as soon as I double it, and then at regular intervals etc. I play Black Jack when I have a lot of spare cash. I must admit I do quite well.. The problem I have with Paddy Power is the **** customer service, which borders on rude and abusive and dodgy technology which was proven from their site crashing on every big race day in the year

    I just wish there was an alternative site for me. I live too far away from the Fitzwilliam now, so playing online is my only option.


    Anyone know a really good site that can give Paddy Power a run for their money?
    you make money playing a -EV game? Do you count cards online?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 712 ✭✭✭Formation


    888 casino is the largest online.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 691 ✭✭✭ianburke


    pp site acting like ****e again these past 2 days...horror so it is for in running punters. will be moving to bet365 in time for the euros and next seasons premier league as ive had enough of this crap


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭dchris


    Formation wrote: »
    you make money playing a -EV game? Do you count cards online?

    The post is about PP's customer service, not how me or anyone else do or do not make money from poker. Am sure there is other threads on that


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 712 ✭✭✭Formation


    dchris wrote: »
    The post is about PP's customer service, not how me or anyone else do or do not make money from poker. Am sure there is other threads on that
    im asking how you do "quite well" at blackjack, a -EV game.

    software froze, no software is without glitches, you got your money refunded.

    employee of paddy power earning minimum wage, who doesn't really give a sh1t used phrases that irratated your delicate sensibilities while being quite reasonable. Happens in every customer service department.

    what makes you special? they gave you your bet back without any fuss. Move on.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭dchris


    Formation wrote: »
    im asking how you do "quite well" at blackjack, a -EV game.

    software froze, no software is without glitches, you got your money refunded.

    employee of paddy power earning minimum wage, who doesn't really give a sh1t used phrases that irratated your delicate sensibilities while being quite reasonable. Happens in every customer service department.

    what makes you special? they gave you your bet back without any fuss. Move on.

    Thank you for your input Formation.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,379 ✭✭✭hefferboi


    Formation wrote: »
    im asking how you do "quite well" at blackjack, a -EV game.

    software froze, no software is without glitches, you got your money refunded.

    employee of paddy power earning minimum wage, who doesn't really give a sh1t used phrases that irratated your delicate sensibilities while being quite reasonable. Happens in every customer service department.

    what makes you special? they gave you your bet back without any fuss. Move on.

    I'm earning minimum wage and still manage to be nice to customers. Its called doing your job. If Paddy Power employees are incompetent, they shouldn't be working.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭dchris


    hefferboi wrote: »
    I'm earning minimum wage and still manage to be nice to customers. Its called doing your job. If Paddy Power employees are incompetent, they shouldn't be working.

    Hefferboi, he will probably reply when he finishes arguing with his toenails:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 712 ✭✭✭Formation


    hefferboi wrote: »
    I'm earning minimum wage and still manage to be nice to customers. Its called doing your job. If Paddy Power employees are incompetent, they shouldn't be working.
    its not a case of being incompetant, they have to have a wide knowledge of sports and casino to answer each question properly, most training is on the job, and I would say they have to deal with a lot of pissy 18-22 year olds.

    It took op a few posts to clearly describe the issue when it should have taken 1 maybe 2 and now he comes on to an internet forum to bitch and highlight his own lack of cop on. Then to say he does "quite well" at BJ is laughable as its a -EV game with a RNG that resets every hand.

    Im taking issue with him because he was a pissy little toerag to someone in a minimum wage job, on the internet (brave boy!), when they were quite reasonable imo and then came on here looking for people to agree with him.

    at least the following poster moving to bet365 for better inplay markets may have a genuine issue.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭dchris


    Formation wrote: »
    its not a case of being incompetant, they have to have a wide knowledge of sports and casino to answer each question properly, most training is on the job, and I would say they have to deal with a lot of pissy 18-22 year olds.

    It took op a few posts to clearly describe the issue when it should have taken 1 maybe 2 and now he comes on to an internet forum to bitch and highlight his own lack of cop on. Then to say he does "quite well" at BJ is laughable as its a -EV game with a RNG that resets every hand.

    Im taking issue with him because he was a pissy little toerag to someone in a minimum wage job, on the internet (brave boy!), when they were quite reasonable imo and then came on here looking for people to agree with him.

    at least the following poster moving to bet365 for better inplay markets may have a genuine issue.

    Might I suggest the AA thread for you Formation? Because either you are a complete p1ss head, or a petit little busy body whos only interaction with others is via websites like this.

    Clearly other posters have had the same issue as I experienced.. ie bad customer service coupled with shoddy technical issues. If you would find this acceptable that is fine.. It says more about you.

    However I assume you are just an argumentative little loser who just needs some form of outlet to expel your vileness!

    And you will also note, that I was not a "pissy little toerag" to anyone as you suggest, they were the one who was rude to me..

    Enjoy your day in bed, you unemployable little waste of space. Go scratch your hole somewhere until next dole day and then fill your boots with cheap Lidl booze!


    People like you are a pain in the hole!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 712 ✭✭✭Formation


    Bad night at the blackjack?:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭dchris


    Formation wrote: »
    Bad night at the blackjack?:)

    Gonna spend all this weeks winnings tonight - Hope you and your mammy enjoy The Late Late Show


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 712 ✭✭✭Formation


    Bad night at the blackjack?:)

    I have to be an alco or a 'petit' little busy body, on the dole and fond of lidl booze (which I hear has some tasty stuff)?

    Got a good laugh out of that one.

    best of luck with the blackjack.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 712 ✭✭✭Formation


    dchris wrote: »
    Gonna spend all this weeks winnings tonight - Hope you and your mammy enjoy The Late Late Show
    you have already implied you are on the dole/minimum wage in a previous post.

    you doubled your wages this week and are going to spend it all tonight and when you have "lots" of spare cash you play bj for a fiver.

    not exactly rolling in it, are ya.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭dchris


    Formation wrote: »
    you have already implied you are on the dole/minimum wage in a previous post.

    you doubled your wages this week and are going to spend it all tonight and when you have "lots" of spare cash you play bj for a fiver.

    not exactly rolling in it, are ya.

    Did you just spend your last hour trolling through previous posts? lol My god you are sad haha

    And no I am not on the dole, nor have I worked for minimum wage . Perhaps when I was 15 years old when I started working! But if I was I wouldn't care as I know I would be actively looking for jobs rather than actively spending my days drinking and chatting on forums like you pal.

    What a loser mate .. Seriously..

    You should try use your abundance (that means 'a lot') of spare time more productively


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 712 ✭✭✭Formation


    dchris wrote: »
    Did you just spend your last hour trolling through previous posts? lol My god you are sad haha

    And no I am not on the dole, nor have I worked for minimum wage . Perhaps when I was 15 years old when I started working! But if I was I wouldn't care as I know I would be actively looking for jobs rather than actively spending my days drinking and chatting on forums like you pal.

    What a loser mate .. Seriously..

    You should try use your abundance (that means 'a lot') of spare time more productively
    not an hour just looked at this page, you gave away an abundance of information with your ranting.

    Anyway I think your telling porky pies about your income, you're broke I would bet but then if I win I can't collect.

    Sounds like you play NL10 against teenagers and drunks to double your weekly e188 income.

    Fairly certain my assumptions are a helluva lot closer than yours.

    So now you have to ask yourself, why are you on an internet forum lying about your few hundred euro being something more respectable?

    Beans and toast are just a couple bad beats away and inevitable.

    When you bust your bank after your few beers some night let me know for sh1ts and giggles.

    have a good day at the "office".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭dchris


    :D
    Formation wrote: »
    not an hour just looked at this page, you gave away an abundance of information with your ranting.

    Anyway I think your telling porky pies about your income, you're broke I would bet but then if I win I can't collect.

    Sounds like you play NL10 against teenagers and drunks to double your weekly e188 income.

    Fairly certain my assumptions are a helluva lot closer than yours.

    So now you have to ask yourself, why are you on an internet forum lying about your few hundred euro being something more respectable?

    Beans and toast are just a couple bad beats away and inevitable.

    When you bust your bank after your few beers some night let me know for sh1ts and giggles.

    have a good day at the "office".


    :D:D:D:D

    hahaha


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,009 ✭✭✭skimpydoo


    Formation wrote: »
    you have already implied you are on the dole/minimum wage in a previous post.

    you doubled your wages this week and are going to spend it all tonight and when you have "lots" of spare cash you play bj for a fiver.

    not exactly rolling in it, are ya.

    Obviously you can't read too well as hefferboi was the person who said he was on minimum wage.:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭dchris


    Obviously you can't read too well as hefferboi was the person who said he was on minimum wage.:rolleyes:

    Oh don't rub it in Ronan Leonard, her hangover will be bad enough! :D:D:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,009 ✭✭✭skimpydoo


    dchris wrote: »
    Oh don't rub it in Ronan Leonard, her hangover will be bad enough! :D:D:D
    Oh it's a she lol. I could say a lot more now but I will hold my tongue.;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 712 ✭✭✭Formation


    Obviously you can't read too well as hefferboi was the person who said he was on minimum wage.:rolleyes:
    true, that is why I said implied. Obviously you don't read when you want a piece but right now im poking the toerag.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 712 ✭✭✭Formation


    Oh it's a she lol. I could say a lot more now but I will hold my tongue.;)
    used to slagging off women? Classy boy. You just 'implied' you are a young twit. You see how that works now?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,009 ✭✭✭skimpydoo


    Formation wrote: »
    used to slagging off women? Classy boy. You just 'implied' you are a young twit. You see how that works now?
    I never implied I was a young twit. Here you go again implying about people on here. I never slag of women but with you I could make an exception but why waste the effort when you will come back implying something else.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 712 ✭✭✭Formation


    I never implied I was a young twit. Here you go again implying about people on here. I never slag of women but with you I could make an exception but why waste the effort when you will come back implying something else.
    never? you are telling porkie pies also. do you know the toerag?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,009 ✭✭✭skimpydoo


    Formation wrote: »
    never? you are telling porkie pies also. do you know the toerag?
    Never I ain't telling porkies and as for the op I don't know them.


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