Season 2 Episode 4 - *Have NOT Read the Books* (Spoilers)

don ramo

krudler wrote: »

I dont get what peoples problems with the magic aspect is, its a fantasy series, its got dragons, giant wolves, zombies, white walkers,a wall that spans the width of a country,people who can't be killed by fire and witches. Its been there since episode one and talked about constantly, the politics and aspects about the throne are what makes the series so good to watch but its a fantasy series first and foremost.

yeah, i love the fantasy aspects of the show, its really what makes it, but i remember when lost first came on the scene there was a few sci-fi aspects that people didn't really mind, right up until they turned the magic donkey wheel and moved the island, it was like people liked lost but didn't like sci-fi and they could ignore a lot of it right up until that point where they couldn't,

but i dont honestly see anything negative happening from this,

tvnutz

It's even better because for the people in the show magic is dead,dragons are dead, the white walkers are only a myth. For them all these things are long gone and that makes it very interesting because we know they are about to be hit with all these different things, and they don't. They are only concerned with who sits on the Iron Throne.

But remember what Joer Mormont said "Do you think your brother's war is more important than ours? When dead men and worse come hunting for us in the night, you think it matters who sits on the Iron Throne?"

The fantasy aspects are exciting and my jaw was hanging low at the entire last few minutes of this episode. Great stuff.

pixelburp

Whilst I wouldn't call it snobbery, there's definitely an odd attitude from people sometimes when it comes to sci-fi / fantasy shows on TV; they act as if it's a dirty word to use in describing its genre. I know people who wouldn't be caught dead watching something ostensibly sci-fi like Fringe or Dr. Who, yet loved Lost & watch Game of Thrones without problem. I suspect it's because that for them, while the science fictional / fantasy elements merely float in the background as scene dressing, they can dismiss them or pretend they don't exist.

qz

What in the actual fook. One of the best episode of the show I've seen. From punching the air at the beginning when the dire wolf attacked the soldier to being gobsmacked at the end when that thing was born.

Unreal.

krudler

Zillah wrote: »

Littlefinger's accent has been wandering around the British Isles this whole season, it's bizarre. He seemed to be doing a Sean Connery impression for a while.

thats bugging me too, my housemate is watching season 1 for the first time and I keep catching bits in the sitting room when he's watching it, and Littlefinger sounds completely different in season 2

sink

I literally said out loud,"what the ****"! Seriously loving this show.

Sudden Valley

I love the series but I found it really noticeable in the last few episodes the lack of extras especially in this episode in the scene in front of the city Quarth- the city guard consisted of about 10 guards and daenerys people consisted of about 20 people. considering they could CGI the inside of the city quite well I'm not why they don't attempt it with extras?

Temptamperu

Sudden Valley wrote: »

I love the series but I found it really noticeable in the last few episodes the lack of extras especially in this episode in the scene in front of the city Quarth- the city guard consisted of about 10 guards and daenerys people consisted of about 20 people. considering they could CGI the inside of the city quite well I'm not why they don't attempt it with extras?

I watched a behind the scenes video on youtube, that scene just started as the thirteen and the "khalisar" but they beefed it up with the guards as it felt hollow.

mapaco

fantastic stuff-just watched now...the only problem is that you have to wait a week for the next one
think i'm gonna have to find spoilers for the black smoky thing-cant be waitin that long!!:P

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

Whilst I wouldn't call it snobbery, there's definitely an odd attitude from people sometimes when it comes to sci-fi / fantasy shows on TV; they act as if it's a dirty word to use in describing its genre. I know people who wouldn't be caught dead watching something ostensibly sci-fi like Fringe or Dr. Who, yet loved Lost & watch Game of Thrones without problem. I suspect it's because that for them, while the science fictional / fantasy elements merely float in the background as scene dressing, they can dismiss them or pretend they don't exist.

Slightly off topic, but I remember reading an interview with the creators of Lost and saying that the first season they kept it at a drama as much as possible, without bringing in any of the Sci-Fi stuff yet, because they had a feeling that people just wouldn't watch that show. Once they had people grabbed in, they knew they were able to do all that stuff.

Cookiemunster

Sudden Valley wrote: »

I love the series but I found it really noticeable in the last few episodes the lack of extras especially in this episode in the scene in front of the city Quarth- the city guard consisted of about 10 guards and daenerys people consisted of about 20 people. considering they could CGI the inside of the city quite well I'm not why they don't attempt it with extras?

Remember though that the vast majority of the Khalasar shagged off when Drogo died leaving only a handful of people behind. Daenerys isn't supposed to have the vast army that Drogo had.

Zillah

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Remember though that the vast majority of the Khalasar shagged off when Drogo died leaving only a handful of people behind. Daenerys isn't supposed to have the vast army that Drogo had.

Even still, she literally had about 30 people behind her, I could have sworn it was supposed to be more like 100. There should also have been three times as many guards. The whole scene just looked a little cheap.

Zillah

pixelburp wrote: »

Whereas dragons were ok? I don't think the average viewer is that fickle that the presence of some magic is going to be a deal-breaker. If anything, the show has been slowly introducing it into the fabric of the story withouting appearing too jarring. Like I said, the first series ended with the birth of dragons after some black-magic rituals, had zombies during & even started the series with a little implied magic. The viewer has been warned.

Dragons are fine because they're basically fancy animals. Zombies are fine because all you see is a creepy guy lurching around. Even the white walkers are little more than shadows in the trees and a pair of eyes in the dark. Full blown blatant CGI is something else altogether.

Having magic in the series is fine, but, like with a lot of things in cinema/tv, a bit of subtlety helps the delivery.

ArmaniJeanss

Dragons are fine because all we are asked to believe is that a species of animal existed in this world, was then thought to be extinct and is now back.
Its plausible enough, new species get discovered and extinct species get 'rediscovered' regularly enough in 'our own world' for it to be believable.

Melisandre's Magic Minge is a much harder thing to accept - this chapter in the book was one of the few times I questioned whether I wanted to continue.

pixelburp

Zillah wrote: »

Dragons are fine because they're basically fancy animals. Zombies are fine because all you see is a creepy guy lurching around. Even the white walkers are little more than shadows in the trees and a pair of eyes in the dark. Full blown blatant CGI is something else altogether.

Having magic in the series is fine, but, like with a lot of things in cinema/tv, a bit of subtlety helps the delivery.

Fancy animals that can fly & breath fire. I mean come on.

And and the zombies are clearly just that, considering one had an arm lopped off, a sword shoved through it & yet it still kept coming. Hardly some creepy guy just lurching around.

Better to just accept these things as part of the GoT world and run with it, accepting the internal mythology, than to get annoyed that they are somehow implausible. The whole world of Westeros itself is implausible afterall.

Zillah

This has absolutely nothing to do with plausibility. It is about presentation. "Blatant" is rarely a good story-telling strategy.

touts

I have to say my reaction watching the final scene was "Aw here!"

I suspect the audience figures will be go off a cliff after that. Sure the 50% die hard fantasy fans who grew up on Buffy and stuff will think the show finally is starting to reach it's potential. The other 50% will think do I really want to be seen to be watching that. They might watch it in secret but they won't be telling their friends about it.

I read the start of the first book and I was surprised at the ages of the main characters. Robb 15? Daenerys 13??? Ned Stark an elderly 35??? Ned, Robert etc were all teenagers when they led a rebellion and overthrew the Mad King????? That worried me that this was aimed at the teenage boy market. This episode's full frontal nutity during birth of some sort of a shadow had teenage boy market written all over it.

I wouldn't be surprised to see "birthed the shadow" used interchangeably with "jumped the shark" in the future. Hope I'm wrong but they have taken a huge huge risk.

Syferus

Jesus, talk about over-reaction.

tvnutz

touts wrote: »

This episode's full frontal nutity during birth of some sort of a shadow had teenage boy market written all over it.

You think teenage boys want to see some pregnant woman naked? Dany naked with the dragons at the end of season 1-hell yes,this-no no no!

CastorTroy

Degag wrote: »

There was a great line in season one too, when Tyrion first met Bronn and asked him his name. Escapes me now!

Was it when he met Tywin, I think? He and a few others. The others introduced them as name "son of" name. Then came to Bronn and he just said "Bronn" tow which Tywin asked "Son of...?" "You wouldn't know him" Thought that was excellent.

I think with this episode the writers were worried people were beginning to warm to Joffrey so had to do something to make us dislike him.

tvnutz wrote: »

Dany naked with the dragons at the end of season 1-hell yes,this-no no no!

Um, wasn't just teenage boys who liked this scene.

tvnutz

CastorTroy wrote: »

Um, wasn't just teenage boys who liked this scene.

Oh I agree!

Dozen Wicked Words

I just think a mystical angle grinder would have been a better way to shift the bars, and that scene was naff imho. Doesn't detract from the series as a whole though, and Im enjoying it more than the first series up to now.

nyarlothothep

I don't get all the hate for the birth scene nor do I understand the aversion displayed towards magic and the embarrasment factor being attributed to sci fi and fantasy. I don't think magic cheapens the series, saying otherwise just seems like snobbery that you could associate with "high culture" critics in fields like writing or film where they would display a similar distaste for sci fi/fantasy. GoT isn't defined by "keeping the magic use low" or "subtelty. If people would just reflect for a minute, it's the characters, plot and themes which define it, that's usually what makes any show. Nor do I care much for the subtelty argument. The overuse of subtlety can get too grating for its own good. Sometimes you need moments of high explicit drama, to go into overdrive and really make a big impact, otherwise you're just left with a boring, tedious British spy "thriller". I personally didn't think "oh the birth scene with magic is unsubtle" nor do I think it should limit the show's appeal to cult audiences. If it does the lay viewing public have less imagination than I thought. Because there is nothing geeky about sci fi or fantasy, it's just characterised as that in a positive sense by geeks for geek pride or in a negative sense by non-imaginative folk who can't see beyond the mundanity of the real world.

Oh yeah and Joffrey is a text book psychopath. Initially I thought the maniac king gone mad with power narrative was somewhat amusing eg oh you're drunk are you? Well then have all the wine you want ahahaha (ironic punishment) but now he's just plain creepy/disturbing.

pixelburp

Zillah wrote: »

This has absolutely nothing to do with plausibility. It is about presentation. "Blatant" is rarely a good story-telling strategy.

Sorry but I don't see how it's blatant as such; clearly the direction of the series is forcing fantasy in all its manifestations back into Westeros. Seems no less blatant than the appearance of zombies & dragons, despite peoples' best efforts to 'normalize' their appearance. CGI dragons are ok, but CGI spooks are bad? Bit confused by your logic is all

So sooner or later yes of course, there's going to be a fairly overt example happening in the show. It can't all be shadowy suggestions, or winks & nods. The shadow-birth was a bit bizarre & lacked elegance, but it seemed to me like the mythology was building in this direction already.

As for the nakedness, I was listening to the radio on the way home this evening, where someone texting into the show described that last scene as 'pornographic'. Prudery boggles the mind sometimes. :rolleyes:

touts wrote: »

... This episode's full frontal nutity during birth of some sort of a shadow had teenage boy market written all over it.

Like I said, boggles the mind.

Son0vagun

Syferus wrote: »

Jesus, talk about over-reaction.

You're right, Total over reaction. Just wait till The aliens arrive, what will they say then!

Pepe LeFrits

touts wrote: »

I read the start of the first book and I was surprised at the ages of the main characters. Robb 15? Daenerys 13??? Ned Stark an elderly 35??? Ned, Robert etc were all teenagers when they led a rebellion and overthrew the Mad King????? That worried me that this was aimed at the teenage boy market. This episode's full frontal nutity during birth of some sort of a shadow had teenage boy market written all over it.

Yeah, I'd imagine because they grew up in a medieval-type society with faster maturity and shorter life spans, and not one where maturity means owning an iPod.

krudler

Just be glad they didnt show the dragons drinking milk from Dany's breasts like is mentioned in the book, and she's bald in that as the fire at the end of season 1 burns off all her hair.

Sleepy

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Yeah, I'd imagine because they grew up in a medieval-type society with faster maturity and shorter life spans, and not one where maturity means owning an iPod.

Not to mention that no-one has ever said a year in Westeros is the same as an Earth year. Their seasons last for years, who's to say their "name days" aren't further apart than our birthdays?

krudler

Sleepy wrote: »

Not to mention that no-one has ever said a year in Westeros is the same as an Earth year. Their seasons last for years, who's to say their "name days" aren't further apart than our birthdays?

zactly, a year in Westeros time could be the equivalent of two or three in ours

Owryan

Likewise who is to say their name day is even their birthday.

Also the human element in GoT would appear to be set in what to us would be medieval times. Back then life expectancy waa a lot less than now so for young asults to be married off/come to power was not unusual