Problems with Direct Debit

dub45

RangeR wrote: »

UPDATE : IPSO responded but specifically put "Private and Confidential in the body". For fear of potential legal repercussions, I'm not posting it here. But this is my response [with one spelling correction]...

What relevance has the "rarity" of a fraud got anyway? Its like the old cliche "you are the only one to complain". Whether there are a zillion frauds or one the only thing thats relevant to you is what you experienced and continue to experience.

For all we know these frauds could be happening every day. IPSO are not going to tell us about them. And in fact there is apparently no system in place for the banks or IPSO to detect them until the defrauded customer brings them to their attention.

If IPSO were seriously interested in the the rights of bill payers they would have taken various actions long before now. As it stands they are lobbyists for the electronic payments industry and should not be in charge of the dd system. They are only too content in their ivory tower to parrot excuses from non compliant banks and companies and boast about the "great" system that they run.

dub45

foggy_lad wrote: »

It could also be the case that companies like gas and electricity providers who are dependant on meter readings from other companies could be backdating bills if they don't get the meter readings on time? If meters are read on 1st of the month and normally the bill would be produced a few days later for collection near the end of the month but if the readings were done late or not sent to the company in time they may be producing the bills a week or more later but backdating them to the first week of the month.

In other words falsely dating their bills? Never!!!!

It appears that companies think that dating a bill fourteen days in advance of the dd date is sufficient irrespective of when it is actually printed or posted.

And of course they get away with it because nobody gives two hoots about such deceptive practise.

RangeR

I've recently come to the belief that my current course of action may not be the most productive or beneficial. A lot of us know that the real world workings of Direct Debit Scheme is not fit for purpose. Originators, country [and sector] wide, are intentionally flouting SOME of the Direct Debit Scheme rules. We know it, they know it, pretty much everyone knows it. However, very few people know how to efficiently and effectively complain. Don't complain to the banks or originators, complain to IPSO. Otherwise the complaint just doesn't count, in the wider scheme of things.

However, The Irish Direct Debit Scheme, as we know it, will cease to exist on 1 February 2014. I know that this is a year and half away but in real terms, it would be a waste of my time to follow up on the items I have outlined previously, in the detail that I want to.

From 1 Feb 2014, The Irish Direct Debit Scheme will be replaced by the SEPA Direct Debit Scheme, based and run in Brussels. SEPA is the Single Euro Payments Area. At this stage I am not sure how Irish consumers will be represented but I'm currently reading through a lot of documentation on it, specifically the proposed SEPA Rulebook, the legislation and other consumer based SEPA information.

There are, apparently, more safeguards in SEPA for consumers but until I read through the documentation, and actually see the SEPA Direct Debit Scheme in operation, it's hard to say what they are.

I'll post relevant bits that I find about SEPA, here, for those that are interested, that I think relevant to the current discussion.

So far in this thread, we are on post 184, spanning 13 pages with a total of 4920~ views. For the past six months, it has been a long, quiet, and sometimes lonely road. Albeit with the same four or five posters contributing.

To the rest of you, whom I will never know [as there is no way of knowing who reads threads], thank you for following so far. I still intend on following up with Meteor, as that was just wrong. At this point I see no reason to follow up on Three. I know that they are in blatant violation but this is not going to change.

I'll concentrate my efforts on the new SEPA. There is a lot to read through. This is not the end of my campaign, but rather taking a different course.

dub45

RangeR wrote: »

I've recently come to the belief that my current course of action may not be the most productive or beneficial. A lot of us know that the real world workings of Direct Debit Scheme is not fit for purpose. Originators, country [and sector] wide, are intentionally flouting SOME of the Direct Debit "...............................

........There are, apparently, more safeguards in SEPA for consumers but until I read through the documentation, and actually see the SEPA Direct Debit Scheme in operation, it's hard to say what they are.

I'll post relevant bits that I find about SEPA, here, for those that are interested, that I think relevant to the current discussion.

So far in this thread, we are on post 184, spanning 13 pages with a total of 4920~ views. For the past six months, it has been a long, quiet, and sometimes lonely road. Albeit with the same four or five posters contributing.

To the rest of you, whom I will never know [as there is no way of knowing who reads threads], thank you for following so far. I still intend on following up with Meteor, as that was just wrong. At this point I see no reason to follow up on Three. I know that they are in blatant violation but this is not going to change.

I'll concentrate my efforts on the new SEPA. There is a lot to read through. This is not the end of my campaign, but rather taking a different course.

Can you name any rule in the dd scheme that is actually observed?

In my direct experience there is absolutely no benefit in complaining to IPSO - they are a huge part of the problem and do nothing to attempt to improve a lousy system.

The problem here is that a culture has been allowed to develop in which the bill payer comes a very poor third and companies can do what they like.

I doubt if SEPA will do away with IPSO and this culture and given the relatively modest demands placed on companies by the dd scheme and their abject failure to comply with them I cannot have any trust in anything improving any time soon irrespective of SEPA.

From the SEPA website

In Ireland, SEPA is managed by IPSO on behalf of Irish banks

:eek::eek:

Plus ca change!!

Update: the 'contact us' number on the sepa website is wrong. Great start.

zynaps

RangeR wrote: »

There are, apparently, more safeguards in SEPA for consumers but until I read through the documentation, and actually see the SEPA Direct Debit Scheme in operation, it's hard to say what they are.

Probably the most important and exciting possibility is that SEPA will bring actual enforcement of its rules - i.e. consequences for non-compliance.

This is the problem here with IPSO and the offensively-named "direct debit guarantee" scheme.
It really is not worth the paper it's printed on, because so far I've seen no evidence that any Irish bank has ever been penalised for failing to live up to those rules. Worse still, the real-world bank staff do not seem to even be aware of those rules which are proudly displayed on websites and leaflets as if there was genuine protection in place for bank customers - and if they are aware of the rules, then they do not understand them or else willingly disregard them.

I really hope SEPA brings some kind of formal sanctions or remedies (e.g. compensatory damages similar to the arbitrary charges customers are levied by private companies for failed debits).

Legislator

dub45 wrote: »

Can you name any rule in the dd scheme that is actually observed?

In my direct experience there is absolutely no benefit in complaining to IPSO - they are a huge part of the problem and do nothing to attempt to improve a lousy system.

The problem here is that a culture has been allowed to develop in which the bill payer comes a very poor third and companies can do what they like.

I doubt if SEPA will do away with IPSO and this culture and given the relatively modest demands placed on companies by the dd scheme and their abject failure to comply with them I cannot have any trust in anything improving any time soon irrespective of SEPA.

From the SEPA website

:eek::eek:

Plus ca change!!

Update: the 'contact us' number on the sepa website is wrong. Great start.

If you are referring to the website SEPA.IE this site is run by a commercial organisation and the content is not necessarily accurate.

foggy_lad

I got my refund from Meteor thanks to the IPSO, but the broadband which I cancelled last month is still on my latest bill, I have informed them of this here but I fully expect my new bill if they can manage to produce a new bill to include a fee for the direct debit they had to refund.

I cant help wondering if there is an organised effort to overcharge people especially those paying by direct debit who may not notice as quickly, with my bill, it was produced on the 10th June and on 13th Meteor told me twice that the broadband was cancelled but if it is not I could just contact them and get it fixed. that sounds like they know well it is still on the account but are leaving it till people put up a fight and contact ComReg etc before they cancel. I'd say they would get a couple of extra months line rental out of most people using that method despite it being fraudulant!

RangeR

I was trying to put this behind me for many months. However, I keep thinking back to all of the unanswered questions and "bodies" acting with impunity.

I've had no updates from any body, BOI, Meteor or the Gardaí.

I've just filled out the form to make a formal complaint to the Financial Services Ombudsman against Bank of Ireland Group. I can only do it via snail mail. It shall be going via registered post tonight or tomorrow morning. I've included the three formal complaints to BOI as attachments and want to know why BOI didn't follow up on them.

I'll update shortly on their response.

RangeR

Things got real busy over the last few days. I only got around to posting the complaint yesterday lunch time. It was received this morning, so said SwiftPost tracking. Now, I just have to wait.

I don't think I posted them before. Here are my three original Formal Complaints that went unanswered by BOI and have been forwarded to the Financial Services Ombudsman. Lightly redacted, of course.

Formal Complaint to BOI - Meteor
Formal Complaint to BOI - Three
Formal Complaint to BOI - BOI Group Complaints Department

RangeR

I guess I'll send another FORMAL COMPLAINT at lunch time

Financial Services Ombudsman wrote:

Before the Ombudsman can consider the matter, the Complainant must go through the
Financial Service Provider’s internal complaints procedure so as to facilitate the possibility
of a mediated settlement. In every Financial Service Provider there is a member of senior
management nominated to review disputes before a “Final Response” Letter is issued. A
Final Response Letter is issued when the dispute has been reviewed by the Financial Service
Provider and such a letter is issued only when the dispute in question cannot be resolved.

It is therefore necessary for you to write to xxxxxx xxxxxxx, Consumer Affairs
Manager, Bank of Ireland, 4th Floor, New Century House, Mayor St. Lower, Dublin
1. Please outline your complaint and request that a Final Response Letter be issued to
you. The Financial Service Provider has 25 working days from receipt of your request in
which to issue a Final Response Letter. If you are not satisfied with the Financial Service
Provider’s response as outlined in the Final Response Letter, please send it to this office
within 15 working days of receipt of same, together with your comments and any letters
or documents in support of your case.

I would ask you to note that if your account/policy is in joint names, the Complaint
Form must be signed by each person. If it is in your sole name, please confirm in
writing, and provide evidence, that this is the case.

Please note that there will be an exchange of all documentation between the parties. It is
important therefore that a copy of and documentation which you hold in support of the
complaint, is submitted by you to this office. Following the exchange of documentation the
matter will then be investigated by the Ombudsman. Further information as to our procedures
is available on our website www.financialombudsman.ie.

cookie1977

RangeR wrote: »

I guess I'll send another FORMAL COMPLAINT at lunch time

And we wonder why people give in on issues like this :rolleyes:

RangeR

cookie1977 wrote: »

And we wonder why people give in on issues like this :rolleyes:

Yeah but I'm like a dog with a mother ****ing bone now. Not letting this one go again.

RangeR

Heading off to the Posty to send this now.

They should get it tomorrow.

RangeR

My “Final Response Letter" was received by BOI Group this morning. Somebody other than the intended recipient signed for it.

wmpdd3

Not really the same issue but similar.

I cancelled a DD with the company by writing on the 2nd of Sept, I got confirmation of the cancellation on the 12th of Sept. I cancelled my DD online with BOI on the 12th. On the 14th, a DD was taken, sending me into the red.

I contacted BOI 365 on the phone, I asked for a reversal of the DD in accordance with the IPSO rules.

Initially they had no idea what I wanted, after I spoke to a supervisor, they sent me into the branch to fill out a form.
I had the money back by 3pm that day.

The lady said the form was only introduced in Sept to comply with 'new regulations'.

Maybe BOI have had to look at the way they handle DDs etc.

RangeR

wmpdd3 wrote: »

Initially they had no idea what I wanted, after I spoke to a supervisor, they sent me into the branch to fill out a form.
I had the money back by 3pm that day.

The lady said the form was only introduced in Sept to comply with 'new regulations'.

New regulations or new policy? Huge difference there. I don't remember off hand but I don't remember seeing anything about HAVING to fill out a form of ANY kind in the Direct Debit Scheme Rulebook v4.19 [PDF - Latest one published]

Would be nice if you could ask her to quote the regulation?
People have a tendancy to spout the terms regulation or law willy nilly but if pressed, it usually boils down to company policy.

I don't care about company policy. Just give me my ****ing money.


EDIT : Actually, more importantly, push them for a reason for the direct debit. You cancelled with the Originator AND the PAYER bank yet still the Direct Debit was allowed. I know that we're dodging on technicalities here but that's theft [or at least fraud] in my book. I'm sure it will all be explained away as user or system error. I also don't care for excuses when MY money is taken from MY account without MY consent.


Now where's my ****ing bone...

RangeR

It's now four business days since my request for a final response was received. Considering the diabolical way I was treated since January [9 months ago] I would have expected a courtesy call, just to say that they were looking into my claim.

Nothing. Not a sausage. Just have to wait until Nov 9th [15 business days after receipt].

RangeR

Received today

via Snail Mail wrote:

Dear Mr RangeR

Thank you for your letter dated 17 October 2012 addressed to xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx, Consumer Affairs Manager.

Your letter has been assigned to me in the Customer Care Unit for investigation and I will respond to you fully within 25 working days.

Thank you for your continued patience.

Yours sincerely

Someone Else

zynaps

RangeR wrote: »

BoI? wrote:

Your letter has been assigned to me in the Customer Care Unit for investigation and I will respond to you fully within 25 working days.

25 working days... 5 actual weeks... where did they come up with that? Are they having a meeting at the top of Mount Everest about it? Why not round it up to 6 months, or never?

RangeR

Nearly running up to 25 business days [including last bank holiday]. Looks like they are using their entire allotment. Next week, Friday 30th November will be 25 business days [+-1]. That's from the date I received the letter, not when they sent it.

Monday 3rd December 2012 will be the day I move forward, if I don't get a response.

lil5

Let the battle commence ...

RangeR

Looks like it. I'm busy in work today but I have the rest of the week off. I will inform the office of the Financial Services Ombudsman in the next day or two. Unfortunately, it has to be snail mail.

lil5

Following your thread has confirmed a few things for me in relation to DD's.

I'm also pretty certain that BOI aren't the only bad apple in the system, rather the system is rotten to the core.

The BOI attitude is still deplorable. I hope the Ombudsman will take action, but it won't even be a slap on the hand most likely.

RangeR

Ok, I may have did some invalid search a while back. It may seem that the Financial Services Ombudsman is NOT the Financial Regulator. In the past hour, I have browsed to the Central Bank website and found this.

Consumer Protection Code Division
Central Bank of Ireland
PO Box 559
Dame Street
Dublin 2
Tel: +353 1 224 4000
Fax: +3531 224 4550 or +3531 224 4551

Email: conp@centralbank.ie
Alternatively submit our contact form

I rang them and asked if THEY were the Financial Regulator. They said yes. I asked them if I could sent a Formal Complaint to the listed email address. They said yes. I sent...

Subject : Formal Complaint towards Bank of Ireland and the Direct Debit Scheme
Body:

To whom it may concern,


I would like to make a Formal Complaint against Bank of Ireland, Bank of Ireland Group Complaints and Bank of Ireland Consumer Affairs departments.

I've been having ongoing issues with them for nearly 11 months with no [positive nor negative] resolution, I've included multiple attachments which relate to direct correspondence with Bank of Ireland and myself, documenting both telephone, email and direct postal mail communications. Two of these attachments related to the ORIGINATORS in the two un-authorised Direct Debits but they also contain many facts relating to Bank of Ireland.

While all of the detail is in those attachments, in summary, I believe Bank of Ireland have been negligent in administrating the Direct Debit Scheme, negligent in dealing with my un-authorised Direct Debit, negligent in dealing with my Formal Complaint and negligent in dealing with my Formal Request for a Final Response.

Under formal complain procedures, I made THREE [minimum] formal complaint submissions to Bank of Ireland Group Complaints Department via eMail, phone and registered postal mail.

I have even enlisted the help of the Irish Payments Services Organisation. That [bank funded] organisation did help to some degree but eventually even they were ignored.

Upon hearing nothing back, I then made a formal request for Final Response to the Consumer Affairs Manager, xx xxxxxx xxxxxxx on 17 October 2012. This letter was received on the 18th October and I received an acknowledgement letter on 24th October stating that I would get a FULL response within 25 business days.

I have patiently waited those 25 business days and then some. There has been no response of any kind.

I believe that there is a systemic dysfunction in the way that Bank of Ireland trains their staff and deals with the public, especially in regard to the mishandling [and potential fraud and European Anti Money Laundering enabling] of the Direct Debit Scheme.



As one last related point, if I may. Is it within the remit of The Central Bank to investigate the fitness for purpose of the Direct Debit Scheme as a whole?

I have heavily educated myself in the Scheme over the past year, because of this issue. There are seemingly wide gaping holes that, apparently NOBODY has complained about.

If I may indulge in just a FEW examples

1. If I complete a Direct Debit Mandate for an Originator service, I can actually put anyone's bank account number and sort code down. There is no checking.
2. If I lawfully fill out a Direct Debit mandate for an Originator Service, I can change those details at any time to another bank account:sort code without verification.
3. If I cancel a Direct Debit Mandate with my branch [and/or the Originator], the Originator can re-open that mandate without my consent, by simply requesting it from the PAYER bank.
4. Under the Direct Debit Scheme Rules, every PAYER bank MUST indemnify the PAYER upon presentation of an un-authorised Direct Debit. In reality, the banks will make you jump through hoops, tell you to go back to the ORIGINATOR for refund or tell you to wait a few weeks "while they process it". As I'm sure you are aware, this is not what PAYER banks, SPONSORING Banks or ORIGINATORS signed up to and agreed.

I will gladly admit that point 1 and 2 are heavily illegal and fraudulent. That's my point. The Direct Debit Scheme makes it too easy for various parties to pretend that someone else's money is there' There are absolutely no checks and balances. The fact that it's illegal doesn't stop it from happening.

Banks have a duty of care to protect and serve their customers. ALL customers, not just commercial ones. It seems that this little fact has been forgotten over time.

In all of my correspondence with IPSO about the non fitness for purpose of the Direct Debit Scheme, they resolutely failed to acknowledge any problems. Stating that they haven't received any [or very, very few] complaints. Being honest, the general public don't even know they exist. In my dealings with the Bank of Ireland, a lot of their front line staff never heard of IPSO either.

Only when REALLY pushed with absolute proof did IPSO finally concede to all points above being correct. I have these in private emails, that for some reason were marked "Private and Confidential" so I don't have permission to give them to you, yet.

I have a belief in the Direct Debit Scheme but not in it's current form. It has huge potential to be something really good. However, it's extortionately over balanced against the average consumer and very business focused.

I'm aware of SEPA but we don't have that yet.



I will leave these for you to investigate to the fullest of your abilities and thank you for your time.



Keith Burke
--

RangeR

Right. There goes my Formal Complaint to the actual Financial Regulator. Of course, I'll update here when I receive a response.

I have a personal request to ask, totally unrelated. Some of you may know by now, that I have been chosen as one of the 66 Irish Citizens to sit at the Constitutional Convention. While I, as others, have doubts as to how the Government will react [or deal with] our submissions, I will soldier on with the utmost vigour [as you see that I am capable of].

I have requested a new forum for Boards and, if they deem it fit and I get enough votes, I fully intend to allow the wider community in having a say about potential submissions to the Government.

If YOU deem it worthy, I humbly ask that you give this thread a +1 posting [not just a "thanks" as they don't count as votes, although they do boost my ego ].

Regardless of whether I may interact with Boards or not, you can be sure that I will do my utmost to pursue the Convention with the importance that it deserves.

Only inclusive can we make a change.

dub45

RangeR wrote: »

Ok, I may have did some invalid search a while back. It may seem that the Financial Services Ombudsman is NOT the Financial Regulator. In the past hour, I have browsed to the Central Bank website and found this.



I rang them and asked if THEY were the Financial Regulator. They said yes. I asked them if I could sent a Formal Complaint to the listed email address. They said yes. I sent...

Unfortunately the Central Bank appear to be complicit in the dd fiasco and the misleading of the public as to the integrity of the system. According to the IPSO website Central Bank reps attend board meetings of IPSO

The Central Bank of Ireland, as regulator of payments systems in Ireland, has been represented at IPSO board meetings since IPSO was established in 1997.

and when I queried IPSO some time ago about certain issues in respect of the scheme they claimed that the Central Bank knew about these.

For example:

Under the rules of the dd scheme:

Paying Banks:
o must adhere to the Rules of the Scheme
o must put in place processes which will ensure that unauthorised, refused and/or cancelled
Direct Debits are intercepted and returned immediately on presentation....

Such processes are not in place and companies can present cancelled dds with impunity. Why does the Central Bank allow the dd scheme to operate when the banks do not comply with such an essential requirement.

Surely the integrity of any company which presents a cancelled dd is an issue? This is an attempt to access a customer's account where the authority for such access has been specifially withdrawn.

The banks don't see this as an issue and we have seen posts on here of bank staff basically laughing about the regular offenders.

Again the Central Bank must be aware of this serious fault in the system and if they are not aware of it then there is something seriously wrong in the communiciation between themselves and IPSO.

It will be interesting to see what will emerge in your correspondence with the Central bank about their role in the dd system.

RangeR

I specifically rang before sending the email and aksed them were they the department I should talk to. Back to the FSO, I guess. Must be snail mail.. PITH

Dear RangeR

Thank you for your recent email in relation to matters arising between yourself and Bank of Ireland about the operation of Direct Debit mandates. One of the responsibilities of the Central Bank of Ireland is the financial health and stability of the Irish Financial Services industry.

Please note that the Central Bank of Ireland does not investigate individual consumer complaints. The office of the Financial Services Ombudsman (FSO) was set up on a statutory basis in 2005. They deal on an independent basis with complaints from consumers about their individual dealings with all regulated financial services providers such as banks. We note that you are in contact with the FSO and we would encourage you to continue to use their services.

However, in circumstances where an issue that is considered to be of systemic importance is brought to our attention, the details are passed to the relevant supervisory area within the Central Bank of Ireland for their information and follow-up. I can confirm that I have forwarded your correspondence to the department that deals with retail banking matters. However, legislation prevents us from disclosing details of any follow-up that may be taken as a result of information supplied by consumers, such as yourself.

We appreciate that you have taken the time to contact us about this matter.

Yours sincerely.

RangeR

I found an email address for FSO [enquiries@financialombudsman.ie]. Sent on the exact same email that I sent to Central Bank, to FSO.

RangeR

Received this today when I got home, dated 6 December 2012.

BOI Group Customer Complaints wrote:

Dear RangeR

I write further to my letter dated 22 October 2012.

I apologise for the delay in your receiving a final response letter, but your complaint is taking longer to investigate that I anticipated. I will issue you with a final response letter within ten working days.

I have forwarded a copy of this letter to the Financial Services Ombudsman.


Yours Sincerly
A N Other

Richard Dower

RangeR wrote: »

Received this today when I got home, dated 6 December 2012.

lemme ask you this, if you have a main acc. with all your money...but then setup a separate/sub account and use that for all your DD transactions....would that not be the solution?

only fund the sub account with enough to cover the anticipated amount of your dd's.....?

also, if you have a sub and main account and your sub hasent got enough money to cover the DD....can they dip into your main account?