Problems with Direct Debit

RangeR

dub45 wrote: »

Did you make a formal complaint to IPSO about this in the early aftermath of the Meteor debit?

No. To be done.

dub45 wrote: »

Did your partner receive the standard confirming letter which is supposed to be issued after an online or telephone sign up?

Nothing was received from the company other than the a package a few days later, containing what was needed to consume the service

I even spelled her name wrong, to see if it was picked up by company or bank. It wasn't.

There was a follow up phone call to gather more details but at no time was banking details confirmed as non fraudulent [bank statement requested]. Actually, there was no proof of address requested either. I guess their assumption was that if the package arrived, the address was confirmed. Package was sent via regular [non registered] post.

The company are still allowing her to actively consume the service with no physical checks having been performed.

RangeR

Update : As of today, it has been 10 business days or more. I have sent a request for update to the Data Protection Commissioner, seeking info on whether Meteor have responded or not.

Ref : "3/12/302"

dub45

RangeR wrote: »

Nothing was received from the company other than the a package a few days later, containing what was needed to consume the service

I even spelled her name wrong, to see if it was picked up by company or bank. It wasn't.

There was a follow up phone call to gather more details but at no time was banking details confirmed as non fraudulent [bank statement requested]. Actually, there was no proof of address requested either. I guess their assumption was that if the package arrived, the address was confirmed. Package was sent via regular [non registered] post.

The company are still allowing her to actively consume the service with no physical checks having been performed.

This is the sign up process for dd+ from the dd scheme rules:

Sign-up process
The Payer sign-up process must include the following steps:
1. Verify Identity and address
Responsibility lies solely with the Originator for verifying the identity of the Payer and his
address, prior to the origination of any Direct Debits.
2. Obtain and Verify Bank account details
The Originator must obtain and verify bank account details of the Payer including the sort
code, account number and account name, as well as confirmation that the Payer is the only
person required to authorise debits from the account and that the account type is suitable for
Direct Debits. To verify bank account details originators should confirm that the payer owns the
bank account. This can be done by asking for bank statement or a cheque book.
3. Account authority– one to sign
The Originator must authenticate the Payer’s identity and the existence of a sole mandate on
the account.
4. Account authority– if more than one signature required
If more than one person is required to authorise debits from the account, a paper DDI must be
sent direct to the Payers, being all persons so authorised, for completion. The Direct Debit
must not be set up until a completed paper DDI, duly authorised by the Payers, has been
received.
5. Validation of account details
Originators must validate the Payer’s account details by applying ‘modulus checking’, preferably
while the Payer is still on the line. This will enable the Originator to correct any invalid
information. The Sponsoring Bank will advise in relation to modulus checking.
6. Confirmation of payment details during sign-up
During sign-up the Originator should confirm to the Payer the first Direct Debit collection date,
frequency of the Direct Debit and amount. The Originator must also confirm to the Payer the
Advance Notice period.
7. Event of customer disagreement
If at any stage, the Payer does not wish to proceed with Direct Debit Plus sign-up, a paper DDI
must be used. In such cases, the Direct Debit application must not be set up until the
completed paper DDI, duly authorised by the Payer, has been received by the Originator.
8. Written confirmation of payment details
The Originator must advise the Payer in a Direct Debit confirmation letter issued within 3 days
of sign-up, that his/her account will be debited without there being a written Direct Debit
authorisation in place. No confirmation letter is necessary where a written DDI has been completed.
The confirmation letter must include the Payer’s sort code, account number, account name,
and reference number, and otherwise be substantially in accordance with the form(s) set out in
Appendices 15 or 16 as applicable.
9. Advance Notice
Advance Notice of 7 working days must normally be given before any Direct Debits are
submitted to the Payer’s account.

RangeR

Update : DPC just sent me an email. My complaint revolved around the fact that Meteor may still have my details on file years after I left them.

I refer to the matter of your complaint to this Office against Meteor.

This Office has raised this complaint with Meteor on your behalf.

In response to our investigation Meteor has stated that; "It might appear
that a third party recently provided us with the bank account details in
order to settle their account. I would recommend that the subject report
the matter to the Gardaí who may wish to contact us to obtain information
pertinent to their investigation."

We are currently awaiting further information from Meteor on this matter
and will revert to you in due course.

I hope that the above information is of assistance to you.


Yours sincerely,

RangeR

RangeR wrote: »

No updates. No word back from anyone, not even Meteor Fraud.

I might have another case of non complience. My partner just signed up for a contract, online, DD+. No proof of owning bank account details but service has still been given.

Will give it a week or two before taking that further.

The offending company is Three. Contract Ordered on May 3rd. SIM arrived on 4th or 7th May. To date, no request to sign a mandate.

I asked them for a response

cookie1977

Is this not to do with originator plus RangeR?

In recent years the Direct Debit Scheme has allowed an Originator to sign-up Payers by telephone, website or email without the customer having to sign a paper instruction. Or to sign-up Payers with a paper instruction and retain the instruction. This is known as Originator Plus or OP/

http://www.ardbrook.ie/direct-debit-mandate


where you see OP/ in front of the company on your bank account?

RangeR

cookie1977 wrote: »

Is this not to do with originator plus RangeR?


http://www.ardbrook.ie/direct-debit-mandate


where you see OP/ in front of the company on your bank account?

Yes it is DD+. But the originator is still obligated to post out a written mandate form for me to sign. They are also obligated to ask for a bank statement or other proof of account ownership.

Neither has happened.

cookie1977

Interesting. I just rang up last week Bord Gais, UPC, Meteor, Flogas and online with Aviva to change my direct debit bank details.
Meteor are not part of the OP scheme so they are sending me out a form to fill in. I changed Aviva online and the others I changed over the phone. They required no proof of anything and all but flogas sent me a letter to acknowledge change of direct debit details in case they were wrong. None asked me for proof or a signature.

Were they supposed to RangeR?

dub45

RangeR wrote: »

Yes it is DD+. But the originator is still obligated to post out a written mandate form for me to sign. They are also obligated to ask for a bank statement or other proof of account ownership.

Neither has happened.

I dont think they are required to send you out an actual mandate - however they are supposed to confirm details in writing following the sign up phone call.

See 8 above in dd+ rules.

cookie1977

That's what I understood too.

dub45

cookie1977 wrote: »

Interesting. I just rang up last week Bord Gais, UPC, Meteor, Flogas and online with Aviva to change my direct debit bank details.
Meteor are not part of the OP scheme so they are sending me out a form to fill in. I changed Aviva online and the others I changed over the phone. They required no proof of anything and all but flogas sent me a letter to acknowledge change of direct debit details in case they were wrong. None asked me for proof or a signature.

Were they supposed to RangeR?

Firstly I would expect any company to confirm such a change in writing irrespective of the dd scheme rules. It would simply seem good business practise. I presume in the absence of any subsequent negative contact from the customer they just assume everything is in order. Flogas would appear negligent in this instance.

Secondly I am very interested to read that Meteor are nor part of the dd+.

I signed up as a Meteor customer late last year and I have just cancelled the dd mandate as I never received more than seven days notice from them (the bills of course were "dated" fourteen days in advance). In fact i received the December bill on 23rd December for a debit that was due around the end of December - so much for 7 days notice and trying to change that bill if it was needed.

Anyways when I complained to IPSO as expected I got the usual schoolboy excuses about An Post etc etc. IPSO told me that Meteor were signed up for dd+. I did sign a paper mandate for Meteor but a paper mandate can also be used for dd+.

cookie1977

Ok then, meteor might be part of DD+ then but when I rang to change they said they could not do it over the phone or online (unlike all the other companies), only via a postal form. Maybe it's more a "computer says no" issue rather than a DD+ issue.

dub45

RangeR wrote: »

Update : DPC just sent me an email. My complaint revolved around the fact that Meteor may still have my details on file years after I left them.

Have Meteor contacted you to warn you that a third party might have your bank details and have used them in this case?

Secondly have you considered making a formal request for information from Meteor in respect of the informaton they hold on you? As you say your bank account details shouldnt be held after this elapse of time and should be associated with whatever Meteor account was used to access your bank account.

dub45

cookie1977 wrote: »

Ok then, meteor might be part of DD+ then but when I rang to change they said they could not do it over the phone or online (unlike all the other companies), only via a postal form. Maybe it's more a "computer says no" issue rather than a DD+ issue.

I think that it is outrageous that companies are defaulting people onto the dd+ without their agreement.

We know how much of a farce it is but the the poor "innocent" has no idea what they are potentially letting themselves in for. I would love to know who approved the seven day notice period as nobody could possibly consider it adequate other than the businesses involved.

cookie1977

It allows them to say "we'll refund you on your next bill" when something does go wrong rather than reissuing a corrected bill. Another very annoying aspect.

dub45

cookie1977 wrote: »

Interesting. I just rang up last week Bord Gais, UPC, Meteor, Flogas and online with Aviva to change my direct debit bank details.
Meteor are not part of the OP scheme so they are sending me out a form to fill in. I changed Aviva online and the others I changed over the phone. They required no proof of anything and all but flogas sent me a letter to acknowledge change of direct debit details in case they were wrong. None asked me for proof or a signature.

Were they supposed to RangeR?

Suppose you had given them someone else's bank account details (not that you would of course:)) and they confirm this change to you - the affected person doesnt know until their account is hit.

I wonder if this is how Ranger's account could have been accessed?

I presume name and address details are not forwarded to the bank when the account is being debited?

This would suggest that there might be a serious verification flaw involved when a person changes "their" bank account details?

dub45

cookie1977 wrote: »

It allows them to say "we'll refund you on your next bill" when something does go wrong rather than reissuing a corrected bill. Another very annoying aspect.

And again another breach of the rules - disputed amounts should not be debited in the first place:mad:

But as we know only too well there is absolutely noone to enforce these rules (or anyone who cares about enforcing them on the banking side thats if they even know about them in the first place).

cookie1977

dub45 wrote: »

Suppose you had given them someone else's bank account details (not that you would of course:)) and they confirm this change to you - the affected person doesnt know until their account is hit.

Funny thing is I also rang vhi decare to change direct debit details over the phone (confirmed by post but no sig or I'd required). I changed them from my wife's details and account to my own so completely different (unlike the other accounts which were already in my name under a different bank account). So in theory your idea works. And going by the amount of people on boards who don't check their accounts too often, unlawful debits could go on for some time.

RangeR

dub45 wrote: »

I dont think they are required to send you out an actual mandate - however they are supposed to confirm details in writing following the sign up phone call.

See 8 above in dd+ rules.

Fair point, I was mistaken. But they didn't confirm anything. At a minimum, they were to request something like a bank statement to prove the bank account is mine...

RangeR

dub45 wrote: »

Firstly I would expect any company to confirm such a change in writing irrespective of the dd scheme rules. It would simply seem good business practise. I presume in the absence of any subsequent negative contact from the customer they just assume everything is in order. Flogas would appear negligent in this instance.

Secondly I am very interested to read that Meteor are nor part of the dd+.

I signed up as a Meteor customer late last year and I have just cancelled the dd mandate as I never received more than seven days notice from them (the bills of course were "dated" fourteen days in advance). In fact i received the December bill on 23rd December for a debit that was due around the end of December - so much for 7 days notice and trying to change that bill if it was needed.

Anyways when I complained to IPSO as expected I got the usual schoolboy excuses about An Post etc etc. IPSO told me that Meteor were signed up for dd+. I did sign a paper mandate for Meteor but a paper mandate can also be used for dd+.

Meteor are in the DD+. My fraudulent amount was via DD+. Confirmed by my bank, Meteor, ComReg and IPSO.

RangeR

cookie1977 wrote: »

It allows them to say "we'll refund you on your next bill" when something does go wrong rather than reissuing a corrected bill. Another very annoying aspect.

I haven't come across this yet. Got a link?

RangeR

cookie1977 wrote: »

Maybe it's more a "computer says no" issue rather than a DD+ issue.

^^

cookie1977

RangeR wrote: »

I haven't come across this yet. Got a link?

I'd have to dig one up but I've seen it lots on the mobile networks forums as well as boards "talk to" sections.

Customer disputes a charge on their bill and network agrees there was an error but say they'll refund next month as bill has already been issued.

RangeR

dub45 wrote: »

Have Meteor contacted you to warn you that a third party might have your bank details and have used them in this case?

Yes, but that's all I got. It was a very short phone call stating that my details have been compromised and that I should inform the gardaí. The guy was very hesitant to give me any more info other than they would fully co-operate with the gardaí.

I humbly requested to know, roughly, when it happened [months or years ago] so I could try pinpoint the person, if possible. He said it was very recent.

dub45 wrote: »

Secondly have you considered making a formal request for information from Meteor in respect of the informaton they hold on you? As you say your bank account details shouldnt be held after this elapse of time and should be associated with whatever Meteor account was used to access your bank account.

Well, when I made my request to DPC, I kind of thought I did that, albeit not formally. It seems to have gotten brushed over. I have a lot to do with this and just need to find a few hours to put it all together.

• I've had no word from Meteor Fraud. They told IPSO that they wanted to talk to me so I forwarded my contact details.
• I've had no word from my three BOI formal complaints. They have just gone off the radar. I think I'm just going to escalate that to Financial Regulator.
• I may have acquired a solicitor/barrister for a high court civil case. I'll know more in a few weeks. It's a very slow process.

RangeR

cookie1977 wrote: »

I'd have to dig one up but I've seen it lots on the mobile networks forums as well as boards "talk to" sections.

Customer disputes a charge on their bill and network agrees there was an error but say they'll refund next month as bill has already been issued.

Not really interested in "company policy". If it's not listed as a Direct Debit Scheme condition on IPSO's website, it doesn't exist and can't be enforced. Immediate refund by PAYER bank still applies.

But, yeah, see if you can find it. I'll have a look on IPSO too.

cookie1977

RangeR wrote: »

Not really interested in "company policy". If it's not listed as a Direct Debit Scheme condition on IPSO's website, it doesn't exist and can't be enforced. Immediate refund by PAYER bank still applies.

But, yeah, see if you can find it. I'll have a look on IPSO too.

Sorry RangeR, when I said "It allows them..." I meant that they (the companies) hide behind the "7 working days" notice rules and dont follow the proper "debit in dispute" rules hoping the customer will just toe their line. Yeah know "oh sorry the bill has already been issued and cant be changed...blah blah blah..."

I'll see if I can find examples anyway.

cookie1977

I'll edit this post and add examples as I find them

Examples of being credited next month rather than reissuing bills:

http://forums.meteor.ie/t5/Bill-Payment-Queries/Error-in-processing-causing-huge-bill-Please-rectify/td-p/24879

http://forums.meteor.ie/t5/Bill-Payment-Queries/Bill-Pay-Smart-Lite-EUR30-Discount-Not-Applied/td-p/22561

Post 3
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77628236

Post 122 and 132
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056572597&page=9

Post 1 and 2
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056331273

Post 14 and 15
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056522524

RangeR

Update : Just received the standard letter from Three asking to confirm banking details. However, the letter states that if there are no problems, I need not contact them.

This is not confirming that I gave them MY bank account details.

RangeR

Some worrying words here. Nothing really new but to get confirmation from the bank

I checked my bank acc today and money was taken by sky even though I had cancelled dd last month with both them and bank. Rang both who of course blamed the other. Sky says bank wouldn't let them take money if dd was cancelled and bank says sky changed ref number as a way of getting around cancelled dd.the dd showed up as cancelled on my online banking for the past couple of weeks.

The bank has again cancelled dd and money will be refunded tomorrow but how can sky take money that they shouldn't have being allowed to take? is there something I can do to avoid this happening again?

Bank mentioned that certain companies are notorious for taking dd payments when not authorised to do so. is there a way of guaranteeing this wont happen again? Its left me with no money again and feeling fairly peed off!!

dub45

RangeR wrote: »

Some worrying words here. Nothing really new but to get confirmation from the bank

The complaint above raises so many issues it is hard to know where to commence. But in particular it illustrates again how the banks seem to have lost all sense of their responsibility to protect the integrity of their customers' accounts. For a bank employee to state, albeit informally,

that certain companies are notorious for taking dd payments when not authorised to do so

Why aren't such attempts automatically reported to the Gardai and the Data Protection Commission.

Why are these "certain companies" allowed to continue to participate in the dd scheme? (Because they are big customers of the banks that can do as they wish that's why!!!)

If a person walked in off the street every day and attempted to access a few Bank accounts can you imagine what would happen to them? I dont think that a bank employee would be casually saying "Oh its your man again!"

iWhen a dd is canceleld the customer has explicitly withdrawn permission for that company to access their bank account again and also to use the information provided by the customer for that purpose - so there are potential date protection issues here as well as irregular access to put it kindly. By informing the bank of the cancellation they have also instructed the bank not to allow such access again also.

IPSO know well that it is impossible to cancel a dd with any degree of finality and yet the continue to publish the following on their website:

You can cancel the Direct Debit Instruction by writing in good time to your bank

This would suggest to any bill payer that the dd is being cancelled but as know this is not the case so IPSO are blatantly misleading the bill payer in publishing this statement.

It is a disgrace that after 45 years of this farcical system the combined might of the banks cannot come up with system to stop a cancelled dd hitting a customer's account.