Problems with Direct Debit

Fred Swanson

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wmpdd3

^^^^

Exactly, the bank will even state what the FSO will decide on even if the issue has never arisen before.

RangeR

The actual findings

Business 1, 2, 3, 4
Personal 1, 2, 3, 4


It should be noted that Three confirmed that my personal account was vanilla Direct Debit and not Direct Debit Plus as the Bank affirmed. I purchased my contract and phone instore, in Bray, and signed a physical mandate. I've never heard [but willing to be corrected] of Direct Debit Plus being enacted with an instore purchase. I believe it's meant for online or telesales.The FSO accepted the Bank's throwaway comment without question and Direct Debit Plus was the cornerstone of their finding of the Bank being purely a third party.

There are many, many, many other examples of my word against theirs. None of these were acknowledged by the FSO's findings. Part of me feels that I'm being made out to be a person of un truths.

My only recourse, as far as the official process is concerned, would be to take this to the High Court. I don't have that sort of money.


18,060 views

RangeR

Yeah, I'm still sore about this. I received both of my €100 cheques. I cashed the personal one. Had to bin the business one as my business ended a few months ago. Thinking back how many people in the little DD circle know of the problems yet BOI can act with impunity.

Came across this one today. BOI royally screwing over a mortgage customer. In effect, took two Mortgage payments and says it will take a week or so to fix. Customer bank says it will take up to 72 hours to fix as they have to get the money back from BOI first.

Legislator [IPSO account - I've never said this before], get your house in order. It's a shambles. Banks are acting with impunity with no apparent recourse by consumers. Stone wall after stone wall. That poor consumer above, fighting for their rights [that they didn't know they had] since lunch time today. Every one involved [BOI, TSB etc] basically told them to survive until mid next week. They now have to go and borrow little bits of cash from friends and family just to feed themselves for the weekend. You should be ashamed of yourself.

It just so happens that my partner, post Constitutional Convention, is now running for elections in May. If she gets elected, I will make it my personal mission in life to fix you. Believe it.

Fred Swanson

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dub45

Under SEPA is meaningless - who is going to enforce "under SEPA'?

There is no will to enforce the rules of the dd scheme - plain fact.

There are no consequences for any companies who break the rules of the scheme - plain fact.

The dd "guarantee" is a lie - plain fact.

SEPA for the bill payer is already a shambles.

I am baffled that no journalist has ever torn the scheme apart.

Fred Swanson

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dub45

I was in Ub the other day and I spoke to two staff members who knew nothing about SEPA dd's. Previously I have had to print off the dd scheme rules and bring in a copy to UB to prove to them how you cancel a dd.

Under SEPA UPC (and no doubt others) have brought forward the date of sending debit information to the bank by seven days. Under SEPA there is absolutely no requirement for this although UPC blame SEPA for it. The effect of it is that the bill payer is frustrated in their efforts to correct a wrong amount as UPC claim the amount is already gone to the bank. UPC regularly break the rules of the dd system in their failure to give correct notice yet they are poster boys for IPSO!

They have even been allowed brand the DD scheme as their own!!

Exercise your supposed rights under SEPA and reverse a dd and guess what UPC DO? Charge you an administrative fee of €50!!!

Do IPSO give a hoot about consumers been screwed like this? Not at all.

There is no one in the dd structure to represent bill payers interests.

You would think that any company deliberately submitting a cancelled dd would be in serious trouble.

The bill payer has explicitly withdrawn permission to access their accounts. So they are attempting to take money without permission. Do the banks care? Do IPSO care? Apparently there isn't even a requirement on a branch discovering these attempts to report them. So IPSO can claim they have no reports of this happening. Very convenient indeed.

This farce will continue under SEPA's brave new world.

dub45

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Because they can! They can make us all wait! With no consequences.

Who is going to do anything to them? IPSO ?

cookie1977

So I've (what I call anyway) fallen foul of SEPA. VHI took a payment from my account for a Dental Insurance DD which I had cancelled with both my bank and VHI. VHI acknowledged the cancellation in a letter on the 13th of Feb yet took a payment from my account on the 8th of March. I contacted VHI and they acknowledge that they took the payment in error but said under the new SEPA rules they cannot reverse or payback a transaction.

They supplied me with a Unique Mandate Number and Credit ID Number which I have to fill into an Ulster Bank form to reverse the payment (I'm not permitted to do this over the phone). So I have to get time off work or find a branch (thankfully) open on a Saturday and do this.

Dont get me wrong I can appreciate mistakes do happen but it's ridiculous that the customer has to do the leg work to get their money back after doing the leg work to formally and properly cancel a payment with both a bank and with a company. "We screwed up but can you go fix it for us now please!"

I wonder how many "small" payments will go uncollected due to the convoluted way of having to get your own money back.

wmpdd3

Can Ulster not email you the form and you post it back?

I agree its crap having to go into the branch for something so trivial.

dub45

Have you asked your bank why they allowed a cancelled direct debit to be paid.

There really is no excuse for submitting a direct debit that was cancelled over a month ago.

Once again we see the nonsense that SEPA is for the bill payer and the fact that when there are no consequences for companies or banks that fail in their obligations under the scheme the result is chaos for the bill payer.

All the so called protection and rules in the world are useless when they are not enforced.

VHI have taken money without your permission. Your bank has allowed them to do this.

Who suffers? You.

cookie1977

wmpdd3 wrote: »

Can Ulster not email you the form and you post it back?

I agree its crap having to go into the branch for something so trivial.

No I have to present myself at the bank with ID etc... This despite the fact that calling them I had to give over my account security details etc. Go figure.

cookie1977

dub45 wrote: »

Have you asked your bank why they allowed a cancelled direct debit to be paid.

There really is no excuse for submitting a direct debit that was cancelled over a month ago.

Once again we see the nonsense that SEPA is for the bill payer and the fact that when there are no consequences for companies or banks that fail in their obligations under the scheme the result is chaos for the bill payer.

All the so called protection and rules in the world are useless when they are not enforced.

VHI have taken money without your permission. Your bank has allowed them to do this.

Who suffers? You.

To be honest I dont have the energy to find out why and I presume they'll say the usual. At least with the old way when they stole your money they had to sort it out (they'd refund you eventually) even if it took time. Now they steal it and it's up to you to sort it.

Yggr of Asgard

It seams to me that these problems are partly due to the way Irish banks have implemented this and the lack of correct online facilities to deal with Direct Debits.

My German bank tells me days in advance about upcoming direct debits as a pre-advise with the full details including amounts and actual debit date.

On each Direct Debit that goes out I have the option to "return" with a choice of reasons plus I have the option to block the DD for some intervals (like next x occurrences) or for ever and that includes the "Creditor Identifier" to stop a company from doing it again.

The exception is DD over 3000€ for which I need to call them, but anything below that I do all online in my banking interface.

So if my German bank can do it, why can't Irish banks?

I love SEPA so far, it made my live easier and cheaper as the conditions on the German account are great, it costs nothing for anything.

cookie1977

dublin-texas wrote: »

It seams to me that these problems are partly due to the way Irish banks have implemented this and the lack of correct online facilities to deal with Direct Debits.

My German bank tells me days in advance about upcoming direct debits as a pre-advise with the full details including amounts and actual debit date.

On each Direct Debit that goes out I have the option to "return" with a choice of reasons plus I have the option to block the DD for some intervals (like next x occurrences) or for ever and that includes the "Creditor Identifier" to stop a company from doing it again.

The exception is DD over 3000€ for which I need to call them, but anything below that I do all online in my banking interface.

So if my German bank can do it, why can't Irish banks?

I love SEPA so far, it made my live easier and cheaper as the conditions on the German account are great, it costs nothing for anything.

Clearly a well thought out system there.

RangeR

cookie1977 wrote: »

To be honest I dont have the energy to find out why and I presume they'll say the usual. At least with the old way when they stole your money they had to sort it out (they'd refund you eventually) even if it took time. Now they steal it and it's up to you to sort it.

Cookie, I understand that you don't have the energy and if that really is the case, I won't push it. The fact is, this part hasn't changed. The bank is still obligated to refund your money now, today. If your local branch aren't being of assistance, which should be your first port of call, then ring their head office and make a formal complaint.

Relevant text from the actual rules URL="http://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/knowledge_bank_detail.cfm?documents_id=597"]V7[/URL, uninterpreted

Page 27 wrote:

If the request for a Refund concerns an Unauthorised Transaction (see definition in section 4.4 under Refunds), a Debtor must present its claim to the Debtor Bank within 13 months of the debit date in accordance with Article 58 of the Payment Services Directive. Section 4.6.4, PT-04.21 provides guidance for Participants to determine whether a transaction may be considered as being unauthorised.

Page 28 wrote:

Once a Debtor Bank has determined that a transaction is unauthorised in accordance with Article 58 and 59 of the Payment Services Directive, a Debtor Bank is obliged to immediately refund the Debtor with the amount of the SEPA Direct Debit pursuant to Articles 59 and 60 of the Payment Services Directive.

IMPORTANT : VHI are colouring the water. It's not that they can't. They chose not to implement this service.

Page 29 wrote:

Reversals: When the Creditor concludes that a Collection should not have been processed a Reversal may be used after the Clearing and Settlement by the Creditor to reimburse the Debtor with the full amount of the erroneous Collection. The Rulebook does not oblige Creditor Banks to offer the Reversal facility to the Creditors. For Debtor Banks, it is mandatory to handle Reversals initiated by Creditors or Creditor Banks. Creditors are not obliged to use the Reversal facility but if they do so, a Reversal initiated by the Creditor must (if the Creditor Bank offers a Reversal service) be handled by the Creditor Bank and the Debtor Bank. Reversals may also be initiated by the Creditor Bank for the same reasons. Debtor Banks do not have to carry out any checks on Reversals received.

There is more information in the Rulebook but some if it is quite technical and I also don't want to bog you down. What's above is enough to demand your money back today.

Fred Swanson

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cookie1977

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Well talking to them this morning they said they could not. I'll contact my branch in a while and see about that.

RangeR

cookie1977 wrote: »

Well talking to them this morning they said they could not. I'll contact my branch in a while and see about that.

Who said? The only UB you should be talking to is your local branch. The one that holds your current account services by SEPA.

cookie1977

Sorry for delay in replying. Rang UB again today requesting the reverse of the DD but this time I didn't mention I had the credit ID number or unique mandate number and they went ahead and began the refund which should take a couple of days. No questions asked this time. Goes to show you the less you tell sometimes the further you get.

PS could not get through to branch on the phone. All calls to any branch are diverted to Northern Ireland.

Fred Swanson

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cookie1977

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Looks like it.

RangeR

cookie1977 wrote: »

Looks like it.

And this would be the point where I send in the formal complaint to UB head office.

cookie1977

RangeR wrote: »

And this would be the point where I send in the formal complaint to UB head office.

You're right of course I know but this is the exact reason I admired your persistence with the thread issue. I dont have the energy to chase them on this issue knowing the likely outcome. For shame I know!