Do private schools have a place in society?

eyescreamcone

The state pays an amount towards the education of every child in the country.
If some parents wish to top up this amount, in order to give their children what they perceive as a better education with better facilities, then why not??

Everybody is entitled to a certain amount from the state towards education.
If a parent wishes to spend more of their own money on grinds, a perceived better school or just on more books then I fail to see why we should stop them.

Parents' spending their own money on children's education!
Good luck I say!

Better than spending dole money on beer and fags and crying about the cost of school books!

I went to a public school but will send my children to a fee paying school if I can afford it.

quietsailor

From steddyeddy's earlier post (in bold)
With relation to the private schools a better student to teacher ratio and choice of subjects.
Of course they do, their parents are willing to pay more and thus there are more teachers paid.

With relation to an advantaged background such as good parents or supportive parents the advantages of unsupportive parents are clear to see.
Again this is down to better parents, nothing to do with government funding

Private schools on average certainly have more money to invest more in teachers
if I knew how I'd put in a facepalm icon here - Of course they do---- THE PARENTS USE THEIR OWN MONEY.

What exactly is your problem? I can't understand it from your posts.
You say your a capitalist - yet you don't want people to pay more and get more
You say you have no problem with supportive parents, yet when they are willing to pay more for better facilities you scream unfair and demand the schools are shut down.

What exactly do you want? As long as the state gives an equal amount of money per child eduacated to each school how can it be unfair.

To use an analogy - if my parents buy me an audi and yours buy you a toyota you want what -- the audi factory shut down? Tough luck there buddy, if I work hard and earn money then I am allowed to purchase extras to make my life easier. Healthcare, better houses, better education for myself and my children.

If you don't like this why don't you donate your money to the local public school, or your time & skills teaching the children Maths and Sciences (it was you that said your in bio-pharmacy isn't it?). That would be a much better way of "making the system fair (as you see it) than giving out about it on boards.ie

BasedHobbes

I'd like to offer my own insight into the Private/Public schools debate.

I've attended a private school in Dublin for six years now (sitting the leaving this year). I went to a NS in Ashbourne, and most of my class went on to the local community school. Both my uncles attended a private school in Dublin, and so my parents were eager to send me there. I was also the target of a lot of bullying in primary, and my parents were worried it would continue in the local secondary.
When I first entered my school, I expected it to be full of elitist, upper class children with little king complexes. I couldn't have been further from the truth. Almost all students at the school were from middle class, normal families. None were particularly wealthy, and none were elitist in attitude. Most of the children I met had parents who worked incredibly hard to send them to my school (annual fees were around €4000 euro). My school does not recieve the additional payments from the department for extracurricular supplies et al (not sure what the actual suppliment is called, sorry), and hence parents pay for it. My folks took extra hours and cut corners to send me to my school.

Do I think it was worth it? Yes.
The relationship I have with my teachers is extraordinary. My school puts emphasis on how strong the bonds are between students and teachers. Thanks to this, I have never been the victim of any bullying in secondary. The facilities in my school are equally brilliant. I have been given a huge range of opprotunities throughout my time in my school. Academically, I've achieved far above what I thought possible. I love my school.

Is my school elitist? No.
As I said earlier, most of my classmates have hardworking parents who put a significant amount of their salaries towards their child's education. My school is involved in countless social activism and goodwill programmes (including the sleepout on O'Connell St., which will probably reveal which school I go to :P). We also have a scholarship programme, which accounts for 10% of all students in our school. The Jesuit ethos in my school encourages us to partake in these programmes.

As regards the subsidies given to private schools by the state (to pay teacher's salaries et al), I fail to see why these schools recieve such animosity. My teachers are paid the exact same amount as teachers from any school in the country. The only difference is that my parents pay for the "extras" in my education, not the taxpayer. Hence, we actually save the state (and the public) money.

Yes, I may have recieved a higher quality of education then other students in the country (although I doubt this, having seen the excellent facilities in my local community school). However, if we were to abolish fee-paying schools, more monetary strain would be put on the budget. We would have to accomodate all the students in fee-paying schools who would cease paying for their education and transfer to the public system. Hence, the quality of education would drop for everyone. Why should people who want to put money towards their child's education be forced to send them to a school with less facilities? It would only damage us as a whole in the long run.

steddyeddy

quietsailor wrote: »

From steddyeddy's earlier post (in bold)
With relation to the private schools a better student to teacher ratio and choice of subjects.
Of course they do, their parents are willing to pay more and thus there are more teachers paid.

With relation to an advantaged background such as good parents or supportive parents the advantages of unsupportive parents are clear to see.
Again this is down to better parents, nothing to do with government funding

Private schools on average certainly have more money to invest more in teachers
if I knew how I'd put in a facepalm icon here - Of course they do---- THE PARENTS USE THEIR OWN MONEY.

What exactly is your problem? I can't understand it from your posts.
You say your a capitalist - yet you don't want people to pay more and get more
You say you have no problem with supportive parents, yet when they are willing to pay more for better facilities you scream unfair and demand the schools are shut down.

What exactly do you want? As long as the state gives an equal amount of money per child eduacated to each school how can it be unfair.

To use an analogy - if my parents buy me an audi and yours buy you a toyota you want what -- the audi factory shut down? Tough luck there buddy, if I work hard and earn money then I am allowed to purchase extras to make my life easier. Healthcare, better houses, better education for myself and my children.

If you don't like this why don't you donate your money to the local public school, or your time & skills teaching the children Maths and Sciences (it was you that said your in bio-pharmacy isn't it?). That would be a much better way of "making the system fair (as you see it) than giving out about it on boards.ie

Ill get back to the other points in your post when I have more time to do them justice. Just to clear up im currently doing research in biochem in ucd. Ill be hopefully working with genezyme in america next year. It will be in a research capacity. So im not loaded yet but ill be doing ok.

Galwayguy35

My cousins live in Dublin and they both went to private school. I've only their word for it of course but they say there is no denying that they got a better education. If parents can afford it then it is their money and fair play to them for wanting to give their kids the best start in life. If I have kids it just wouldn't be an option to send them private as I earn a low wage.

steddyeddy

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

My cousins live in Dublin and they both went to private school. I've only their word for it of course but they say there is no denying that they got a better education. If parents can afford it then it is their money and fair play to them for wanting to give their kids the best start in life. If I have kids it just wouldn't be an option to send them private as I earn a low wage.

Im not faulting the parents good intentions at all. My problem is with state funding.

Superbus

steddyeddy wrote: »

Im not faulting the parents good intentions at all. My problem is with state funding.

At no point in the thread however, despite having more than 60 posts in it, have you addressed the valid reasons as to why state funding of these schools is actually a good thing, such as mine here or Finlay's just above this. I really want to hear your take on it.

steddyeddy

Superbus wrote: »

At no point in the thread however, despite having more than 60 posts in it, have you addressed the valid reasons as to why state funding of these schools is actually a good thing, such as mine here or Finlay's just above this. I really want to hear your take on it.

I promise I will get to it Im to busy to respond to the points made properly. If I get time tonight I will post. Im sorry about the delay.

Superbus

steddyeddy wrote: »

Superbus wrote: »

At no point in the thread however, despite having more than 60 posts in it, have you addressed the valid reasons as to why state funding of these schools is actually a good thing, such as mine here or Finlay's just above this. I really want to hear your take on it.

I promise I will get to it Im to busy to respond to the points made properly. If I get time tonight I will post. Im sorry about the delay.

Too busy at 11 on a Sunday night, despite having already replied a few minutes earlier?

Grand so.

SChique00

Okay, so I go to a private school - and from what I can see there lies no difference in either the actual facilities of our school (if anything they're below par compared to the public schools in town), the attitudes of the students (there are hard workers such as myself but there are also layabouts - only difference is their parents pay for them to show such disregard towards their futures) or the curriculum. Yes the student/teacher ratio is lower, but as countless posts have stated before me, the parents PAY for this advantage.
It costs the government much less to keep a private student in education over the six years (and this cost is mainly related to exams), and (in our school anyway) all building projects are funded almost entirely by fees from parents. I'm not going to pretend to understand the ins and outs of educational finance, but what I'm trying to say is - most private schools don't attempt to support elitism; certainly not in my case. I chose to go to this school before I even knew it was a private institution - I didn't get into my school of choice (a local public convent). I am not rich, and while there are snobs who are there for image, and the odd student has a fairly minted family, the majority of my classmates come from a very similiar background to my own.
Parents pay for their children's education by and large because they know that the public system is sub-par in many respects. That is not to say that a student from a public school cannot do just as well (if not better) than a private school student - that all comes down to hard work and intelligence - but I believe the lower student numbers give a strong sense of community in my school, and you feel your teachers really care about your progress, encouraging your abilities and doing their best to help you fulfill your potentional. However I can only speak on the part of my school - for all I know other people from public schools feel this way also I do feel sorry for families who cannot afford to send their children to private schools, but the fact is they do deserve a place in society. You may as well argue that private healthcare is unfair - there is no substantial difference upon which to base a credible argument.
Is this all because of that Midweek special on TV3? Because you cannot trust the amount of crap that comes out of that station - it's the Irish Fox, for crying out loud...

steddyeddy

Superbus wrote: »

Too busy at 11 on a Sunday night, despite having already replied a few minutes earlier?

Grand so.

Im working on a project. I have lab practicals next week. I want to write a long reply to do your queries justice.

SChique00

Lads, the fact is that the Irish educational system, public or private is pretty crappy, and the ignorant people who don't understand or have attempted to understand the differences between private and public education (which are, may I say, as undetectable as the differences between private and public healthcare) decided to make it into a topical issue on TV3, to boost ratings from the working classes, slander (mostly middle-class) fee-paying parents and make them all out to be capitalist pigs. Stirring the sh!t, in other words... WHEN THEY COULD'VE BEEN GIVING OUT ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT. They're the real enemy here....

cloud493

I hated private school personally. Would never send my kids there. But its the parents choice and all that.

SChique00

cloud493 wrote: »

I hated private school personally. Would never send my kids there. But its the parents choice and all that.

Precisely - if you can afford it, and you believe it'll give your kids a more secure future, then why not?

anitaca

SChique00 wrote: »

Lads, the fact is that the Irish educational system, public or private is pretty crappy, and the ignorant people who don't understand or have attempted to understand the differences between private and public education (which are, may I say, as undetectable as the differences between private and public healthcare) decided to make it into a topical issue on TV3, to boost ratings from the working classes, slander (mostly middle-class) fee-paying parents and make them all out to be capitalist pigs. Stirring the sh!t, in other words... WHEN THEY COULD'VE BEEN GIVING OUT ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT. They're the real enemy here....

What program and date was this?

Duggys Housemate

SChique00 wrote: »

Lads, the fact is that the Irish educational system, public or private is pretty crappy, and the ignorant people who don't understand or have attempted to understand the differences between private and public education (which are, may I say, as undetectable as the differences between private and public healthcare) decided to make it into a topical issue on TV3, to boost ratings from the working classes, slander (mostly middle-class) fee-paying parents and make them all out to be capitalist pigs. Stirring the sh!t, in other words... WHEN THEY COULD'VE BEEN GIVING OUT ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT. They're the real enemy here....

You needed a few more full stops in there.

SChique00

anitaca wrote: »

What program and date was this?

It was a featured "issue" on Midweek, the TV3 version of Primetime - a few weeks ago, maybe late February/early March?

steddyeddy

Superbus wrote: »

At no point in the thread however, despite having more than 60 posts in it, have you addressed the valid reasons as to why state funding of these schools is actually a good thing, such as mine here or Finlay's just above this. I really want to hear your take on it.

Right sorry about the delay. Before I start I want to reiterate my opinions in regard to private schools as mentioned in an earlier post.

All kids in my opinion have the right to a good education in my opinion and I want as much as possible done to even up the playing field. I dont see how kids should suffer based on their parents lifestyle.

As I stated before I dont think all kids who go to private schools are rich, spoilt or any other derogatory word.
I dont think all private schools are the same. Thats why I mentioned private as oppossed to fee paying.

As regards jealousy Im a postgraduate in biochemistry I have job options to work at most of the top pharmaceutical industries. Im not bragging but I am not nor will not be short of money. I just dont like the idea of my kids benifiting more than other kids because of that.

My problem is the tax payer funding some private schools I dont want to remove all private shcools.

Particularly important there is that I think that some fee paying shcools promote eltitisim more than others. I dont think private schools are inherintly wrong but some promote eltitisim. Before funding a private school certain criteria should be met. Certain schools like gonzaga and others have policies that give priority of admission which extends to grandchildren of people who have attended that college so money isnt the only factor.


I started the thread in response to a study commisioned by the OECD. Link to the article here.

Some of the parts that are important to me are as follows:

STUDENTS IN fee-paying schools are two years ahead of their counterparts in vocational schools in literacy skills, according to a study which underlines the two-tier nature of Irish education.

I understand giving your kids the best start in life but having a two year difference in literacy skills is not acceptable. State funding should be increased for public schools and decreased for fee paying schools.

It also finds that students from fee-paying schools are drawn from the most advantaged strata of Irish society – despite claims these schools have students from all backgrounds.

I know that not everyone who goes to private comes from an elite background but the study finds that students in these schools come from the most advantaged strata of Irish society.

Responding to the report last night Teacher’s Union of Ireland General Secretary John MacGabhann said it was now time for the State to stop providing “a turbo boost to the already privileged.’’

The teachers union have a problem with state funding this also.

The OECD study analyses the 2009 OECD/Pisa rankings on literacy among Irish teenagers.
Ireland was ranked 17th in the OECD on literacy, down from fifth in 2000, the sharpest drop experienced by any developed nation.

We have an terrible literacy ranking now as the fact above shows. We need to put more money into public shcools and less into private. The public is a system which serves the majority of the people in Ireland so thats where we need to focus.

The use of these sibling policies is specifically criticised in the new report. It says they play a key role in helping private schools draw students from the better-off section of society. “On average, schools that exercised this preference had a student enrolment with a socioeconomic score that was . . . higher than schools that did not.”

Some schools such as gonzaga actually has a policy to give place priority to grandchildren and children of former students. This should not be state funded.

Dr Jude Cosgrove, of the Educational Research Centre at St Patrick’s College, Drumcondra, Dublin, which oversees Pisa in Ireland, says the findings show pupils in fee-paying schools do better because their students are the most advantaged. “Clearly, achievement differences between school types in Ireland are related to the socioeconomic background of their students,” she said.

The findings show these students do well because of their social background and not the private school. The theory is if you withold state funding those students will do aswell. The study found that most of those students come from an advantaged background so most should be able to afford the increase in fees.

XxMCRxBabyxX

steddyeddy wrote: »

Particularly important there is that I think that some fee paying shcools promote eltitisim more than others. I dont think private schools are inherintly wrong but some promote eltitisim. Before funding a private school certain criteria should be met. Certain schools like gonzaga and others have policies that give priority of admission which extends to grandchildren of people who have attended that college so money isnt the only factor.

Can you give an example of this promoting elitism (and not re admissions policies which I'm gonna deal with further down)

steddyeddy wrote: »

I understand giving your kids the best start in life but having a two year difference in literacy skills is not acceptable. State funding should be increased for public schools and decreased for fee paying schools.

Surely what you need to do is tackle the issue and not take the money from somewhere else when it is not their fault?

steddyeddy wrote: »

Some schools such as gonzaga actually has a policy to give place priority to grandchildren and children of former students. This should not be state funded.

Are you going to take away state funding to every school in the country that has an admissions policy? You seemed to have ignored me when I made this point before. Nearly every school in the country, public and private, has a similar admissions policy where family members of students/former students get priority. There has even been cases about them (of which the schools won)

steddyeddy wrote: »

The findings show these students do well because of their social background and not the private school. The theory is if you withold state funding those students will do aswell. The study found that most of those students come from an advantaged background so most should be able to afford the increase in fees.

I really don't know how you expect most people to afford fees when it has been pointed out many times that most private school parents nowadays already have to sacrifice to pay for their child's education?

prinz

Why don't you ask Richard Boyd Barrett? :pac: One time student of fee paying, rugby playing Dublin 4 elitist cronyist school...

beans

Of course they do. But so do doggy-groomers and wardrobe-managers, so you just have to assert that society is f*cked and that if you have a child in a school that ANYONE else knows about, then you're not being careful enough. :eek:

golden lane

steddyeddy wrote: »

I dont think they do. Im not talking about the cost to the system, I think they promote elitisim, cronyisim and a false sense of entitlement in this society. It gives an unfair advantage to people who usually already are lucky enough to not be born into poverty. I dont get why one persons education should be more important than anothers.

private schools should exist for the most important reason...........choice...

steddyeddy

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Can you give an example of this promoting elitism (and not re admissions policies which I'm gonna deal with further down)

The OECD study says the students they have are drawn from the most advantaged areas of society. Recruiting from one socioeconomic group is elitisim.

Surely what you need to do is tackle the issue and not take the money from somewhere else when it is not their fault?

Their doing alright for money. As the report said the students are mostly drawn from the most advantaged in society. Withdrawing funding from some of these schools wont affect them at all. Gonzaga or st.gerards are not struggling for money like a lot of schools are. The students from the advantaged backgrounds will do alright regardless. If I did alright why cant they?

Are you going to take away state funding to every school in the country that has an admissions policy? You seemed to have ignored me when I made this point before. Nearly every school in the country, public and private, has a similar admissions policy where family members of students/former students get priority. There has even been cases about them (of which the schools won)

Most secondary schools have a siblings and sons policy. Very rarely do they have a grandsons policy like gonzaga has. Also the fact that they are different to public schools by a large measure. They provide a better teacher student ratio and charge fees. By using this policy they are ensuring they are getting students from the same socioeconmic background again and again.

I really don't know how you expect most people to afford fees when it has been pointed out many times that most private school parents nowadays already have to sacrifice to pay for their child's education?

My cousin attended private school through massive sacrifices by his parents. Some posters here attended private schools and came from modest backgrounds but thats not the reality and the facts the OECD are stating that most of the students in private schools come from advantaged backgrounds. You keep saying that most are from modest backgrounds but you havent shown me studies that come to the same conclusion.

steddyeddy

golden lane wrote: »

private schools should exist for the most important reason...........choice...

Yes they should exist but I disagree with state funding of these schools.

Milk & Honey

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes they should exist but I disagree with state funding of these schools.

It would be a good idea to put VAT on the fees as well. At least some contribution to society would be obtained from private education.

XxMCRxBabyxX

steddyeddy wrote: »

The OECD study says the students they have are drawn from the most advantaged areas of society. Recruiting from one socioeconomic group is elitisim.



Their doing alright for money. As the report said the students are mostly drawn from the most advantaged in society. Withdrawing funding from some of these schools wont affect them at all. Gonzaga or st.gerards are not struggling for money like a lot of schools are. The students from the advantaged backgrounds will do alright regardless. If I did alright why cant they?



Most secondary schools have a siblings and sons policy. Very rarely do they have a grandsons policy like gonzaga has. Also the fact that they are different to public schools by a large measure. They provide a better teacher student ratio and charge fees. By using this policy they are ensuring they are getting students from the same socioeconmic background again and again.




My cousin attended private school through massive sacrifices by his parents. Some posters here attended private schools and came from modest backgrounds but thats not the reality and the facts the OECD are stating that most of the students in private schools come from advantaged backgrounds. You keep saying that most are from modest backgrounds but you havent shown me studies that come to the same conclusion.

By any chance have you read the actual studies or just the biased article ?

steddyeddy

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

By any chance have you read the actual studies or just the biased article ?

Sorry how is it a baised article. It states the findings of the study. Can you back up your ascertaion that most members of private schools come from modest backgrounds. During the recession private school enrollment went up.

According to this study by the OECD 95% of students go to public schools. So 5% are from fee paying schools. 5% of people in Ireland are wealthy enough to afford an increase in private school fees.

XxMCRxBabyxX

steddyeddy wrote: »

Sorry how is it a baised article. It states the findings of the study. Can you back up your ascertaion that most members of private schools come from modest backgrounds. During the recession private school enrollment went up.

According to this study by the OECD 95% of students go to public schools. So 5% are from fee paying schools. 5% of people in Ireland are wealthy enough to afford an increase in private school fees.

It has not use one positive statistic from the report about private schooling (which is also a different report from the one that yoou have linked. In particular the report does not mention OECD's findings that the schools themselves are not the issue.

Also you are forgetting one major thing. If we cut state funding to private schools all we do is widen the economic gap between public and private which according to your interpretation will only bring the private schools higher in the rankings and public schools lower.

steddyeddy

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

It has not use one positive statistic from the report about private schooling (which is also a different report from the one that yoou have linked. In particular the report does not mention OECD's findings that the schools themselves are not the issue.

Also you are forgetting one major thing. If we cut state funding to private schools all we do is widen the economic gap between public and private which according to your interpretation will only bring the private schools higher in the rankings and public schools lower.

Actually I think the gap will remain the same. I simply dont believe the large majority of private schoolers are drawn from the average of society. How would It change things and the number of people who attend if we withdraw funds?

steddyeddy

http://www.schooldays.ie/education-news-item/Fee-paying-students-lead-the-way-in-reading-skills-801339089

Another article documenting the same study.