quietsailor wrote: » From steddyeddy's earlier post (in bold)With relation to the private schools a better student to teacher ratio and choice of subjects. Of course they do, their parents are willing to pay more and thus there are more teachers paid.With relation to an advantaged background such as good parents or supportive parents the advantages of unsupportive parents are clear to see. Again this is down to better parents, nothing to do with government fundingPrivate schools on average certainly have more money to invest more in teachers if I knew how I'd put in a facepalm icon here - Of course they do---- THE PARENTS USE THEIR OWN MONEY. What exactly is your problem? I can't understand it from your posts. You say your a capitalist - yet you don't want people to pay more and get more You say you have no problem with supportive parents, yet when they are willing to pay more for better facilities you scream unfair and demand the schools are shut down. What exactly do you want? As long as the state gives an equal amount of money per child eduacated to each school how can it be unfair. To use an analogy - if my parents buy me an audi and yours buy you a toyota you want what -- the audi factory shut down? Tough luck there buddy, if I work hard and earn money then I am allowed to purchase extras to make my life easier. Healthcare, better houses, better education for myself and my children. If you don't like this why don't you donate your money to the local public school, or your time & skills teaching the children Maths and Sciences (it was you that said your in bio-pharmacy isn't it?). That would be a much better way of "making the system fair (as you see it) than giving out about it on boards.ie
Galwayguy35 wrote: » My cousins live in Dublin and they both went to private school. I've only their word for it of course but they say there is no denying that they got a better education. If parents can afford it then it is their money and fair play to them for wanting to give their kids the best start in life. If I have kids it just wouldn't be an option to send them private as I earn a low wage.
steddyeddy wrote: » Im not faulting the parents good intentions at all. My problem is with state funding.
Superbus wrote: » At no point in the thread however, despite having more than 60 posts in it, have you addressed the valid reasons as to why state funding of these schools is actually a good thing, such as mine here or Finlay's just above this. I really want to hear your take on it.
steddyeddy wrote: » Superbus wrote: » At no point in the thread however, despite having more than 60 posts in it, have you addressed the valid reasons as to why state funding of these schools is actually a good thing, such as mine here or Finlay's just above this. I really want to hear your take on it. I promise I will get to it Im to busy to respond to the points made properly. If I get time tonight I will post. Im sorry about the delay.
Superbus wrote: » Too busy at 11 on a Sunday night, despite having already replied a few minutes earlier? Grand so.
cloud493 wrote: » I hated private school personally. Would never send my kids there. But its the parents choice and all that.
SChique00 wrote: » Lads, the fact is that the Irish educational system, public or private is pretty crappy, and the ignorant people who don't understand or have attempted to understand the differences between private and public education (which are, may I say, as undetectable as the differences between private and public healthcare) decided to make it into a topical issue on TV3, to boost ratings from the working classes, slander (mostly middle-class) fee-paying parents and make them all out to be capitalist pigs. Stirring the sh!t, in other words... WHEN THEY COULD'VE BEEN GIVING OUT ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT. They're the real enemy here....
anitaca wrote: » What program and date was this?
All kids in my opinion have the right to a good education in my opinion and I want as much as possible done to even up the playing field. I dont see how kids should suffer based on their parents lifestyle. As I stated before I dont think all kids who go to private schools are rich, spoilt or any other derogatory word. I dont think all private schools are the same. Thats why I mentioned private as oppossed to fee paying. As regards jealousy Im a postgraduate in biochemistry I have job options to work at most of the top pharmaceutical industries. Im not bragging but I am not nor will not be short of money. I just dont like the idea of my kids benifiting more than other kids because of that. My problem is the tax payer funding some private schools I dont want to remove all private shcools.
STUDENTS IN fee-paying schools are two years ahead of their counterparts in vocational schools in literacy skills, according to a study which underlines the two-tier nature of Irish education.
It also finds that students from fee-paying schools are drawn from the most advantaged strata of Irish society – despite claims these schools have students from all backgrounds.
Responding to the report last night Teacher’s Union of Ireland General Secretary John MacGabhann said it was now time for the State to stop providing “a turbo boost to the already privileged.’’
The OECD study analyses the 2009 OECD/Pisa rankings on literacy among Irish teenagers.Ireland was ranked 17th in the OECD on literacy, down from fifth in 2000, the sharpest drop experienced by any developed nation.
The use of these sibling policies is specifically criticised in the new report. It says they play a key role in helping private schools draw students from the better-off section of society. “On average, schools that exercised this preference had a student enrolment with a socioeconomic score that was . . . higher than schools that did not.”
Dr Jude Cosgrove, of the Educational Research Centre at St Patrick’s College, Drumcondra, Dublin, which oversees Pisa in Ireland, says the findings show pupils in fee-paying schools do better because their students are the most advantaged. “Clearly, achievement differences between school types in Ireland are related to the socioeconomic background of their students,” she said.
steddyeddy wrote: » Particularly important there is that I think that some fee paying shcools promote eltitisim more than others. I dont think private schools are inherintly wrong but some promote eltitisim. Before funding a private school certain criteria should be met. Certain schools like gonzaga and others have policies that give priority of admission which extends to grandchildren of people who have attended that college so money isnt the only factor.
steddyeddy wrote: » I understand giving your kids the best start in life but having a two year difference in literacy skills is not acceptable. State funding should be increased for public schools and decreased for fee paying schools.
steddyeddy wrote: » Some schools such as gonzaga actually has a policy to give place priority to grandchildren and children of former students. This should not be state funded.
steddyeddy wrote: » The findings show these students do well because of their social background and not the private school. The theory is if you withold state funding those students will do aswell. The study found that most of those students come from an advantaged background so most should be able to afford the increase in fees.
steddyeddy wrote: » I dont think they do. Im not talking about the cost to the system, I think they promote elitisim, cronyisim and a false sense of entitlement in this society. It gives an unfair advantage to people who usually already are lucky enough to not be born into poverty. I dont get why one persons education should be more important than anothers.
XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: » Can you give an example of this promoting elitism (and not re admissions policies which I'm gonna deal with further down)
Surely what you need to do is tackle the issue and not take the money from somewhere else when it is not their fault?
Are you going to take away state funding to every school in the country that has an admissions policy? You seemed to have ignored me when I made this point before. Nearly every school in the country, public and private, has a similar admissions policy where family members of students/former students get priority. There has even been cases about them (of which the schools won)
I really don't know how you expect most people to afford fees when it has been pointed out many times that most private school parents nowadays already have to sacrifice to pay for their child's education?
golden lane wrote: » private schools should exist for the most important reason...........choice...
steddyeddy wrote: » Yes they should exist but I disagree with state funding of these schools.
steddyeddy wrote: » The OECD study says the students they have are drawn from the most advantaged areas of society. Recruiting from one socioeconomic group is elitisim. Their doing alright for money. As the report said the students are mostly drawn from the most advantaged in society. Withdrawing funding from some of these schools wont affect them at all. Gonzaga or st.gerards are not struggling for money like a lot of schools are. The students from the advantaged backgrounds will do alright regardless. If I did alright why cant they? Most secondary schools have a siblings and sons policy. Very rarely do they have a grandsons policy like gonzaga has. Also the fact that they are different to public schools by a large measure. They provide a better teacher student ratio and charge fees. By using this policy they are ensuring they are getting students from the same socioeconmic background again and again. My cousin attended private school through massive sacrifices by his parents. Some posters here attended private schools and came from modest backgrounds but thats not the reality and the facts the OECD are stating that most of the students in private schools come from advantaged backgrounds. You keep saying that most are from modest backgrounds but you havent shown me studies that come to the same conclusion.
XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: » By any chance have you read the actual studies or just the biased article ?
steddyeddy wrote: » Sorry how is it a baised article. It states the findings of the study. Can you back up your ascertaion that most members of private schools come from modest backgrounds. During the recession private school enrollment went up. According to this study by the OECD 95% of students go to public schools. So 5% are from fee paying schools. 5% of people in Ireland are wealthy enough to afford an increase in private school fees.
XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: » It has not use one positive statistic from the report about private schooling (which is also a different report from the one that yoou have linked. In particular the report does not mention OECD's findings that the schools themselves are not the issue. Also you are forgetting one major thing. If we cut state funding to private schools all we do is widen the economic gap between public and private which according to your interpretation will only bring the private schools higher in the rankings and public schools lower.
