Top 90's heavyweight boxers vs top 70's heavyweight boxers?

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Did ya not listen to Ali!

too slow, too small, too feather fisted and too chinny-And it all proved to be true aswell in the fight.

Well, this is not about Ali. It's about Haye. Haye has a puncher's chance, end of. But, Patterson too has that chance. Heavy handed enough to dent Haye. I will back Patterson over Hype Haye!

Maravilla33

I'm with walshb on this one. Haye as a heavyweight is not up to much. He can talk better than he can fight. Was decked by a past it not very good anyway Barrett. Out jabbed by John The Sloth Ruiz. Then there was the farce against Audley. Finally he was totally dominated and made to look clueless against the first good fighter he fought at the weight. Valuev was a good win. Not cos Valuev was ever any use (he was absolute pants) but always going to be awkward against someone that big. Haye was a very good cruiserweight but a very average heavy..

walshb

Maravilla33 wrote: »

I'm with walshb on this one. Haye as a heavyweight is not up to much. He can talk better than he can fight. Was decked by a past it not very good anyway Barrett. Out jabbed by John The Sloth Ruiz. Then there was the farce against Audley. Finally he was totally dominated and made to look clueless against the first good fighter he fought at the weight. Valuev was a good win. Not cos Valuev was ever any use (he was absolute pants) but always going to be awkward against someone that big. Haye was a very good cruiserweight but a very average heavy..

He was a good CW for the time. I still cannnot see him beating any great men below 200 lbs, or below 190 lbs in the early CW/HW days. Patterson included.

There are some who think Haye beats Rocky. To me that is insane.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

There are some who think Haye beats Rocky. To me that is insane.

Thinking a 6'3 fighter with fast hands and good footwork and decent power could beat Rocky is not insane

Thinking he could beat the myth that is Rocky is insane

Thinking he could beat the 5,11 with a 170cm reach and at maximum weight of 192lb When Haye at his minimum ever was 191lb and regularly at 215lbs plus and 6,3 with a 198cm reach, so going on about him been a cruiser weight is a moot point and Haye was always bigger.

I think this would be a competitive fight and only reason the Rock has a chance is how tough he was-Rocky was rocked many times so not like he has a chin of granite, his style would make tagging the more skilled and bigger Haye tough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS60oKYfGaA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTubzHeYlNA

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Thinking a 6'3 fighter with fast hands and good footwork and decent power could beat Rocky is not insane

]

That is not insane if that person also had the fitness, workrate and chin to go with it. Haye does not have those traits at the required level to ever beat Rocky!

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

so going on about him been a cruiser weight is a moot point and Haye was always bigger.

I said CW/HW. Any verison of Haye never beats Rocky. Or Charles, or JJW or Tunney.

Littlehorny

David Haye is not 6ft 3, look up his staredown with Wlad on youtube and Wlad is listed at 6ft 6 and Haye is 5 to 6 inches shorter than, Haye is 6 ft 1 at best.
Also i remember Haye being stopped a few years ago by Carl Thompson at cruiserweight, Thompson was past it at this stage of his career and he was never considered a great fighter at any stage but he toughed it out against Haye and by the later rounds Haye was gassed out so sgree with Walsh b on this one no way Haye would beat Rocky Marciano, the man would would eat Haye up and spit him out

walshb

Littlehorny wrote: »

David Haye is not 6ft 3, look up his staredown with Wlad on youtube and Wlad is listed at 6ft 6 and Haye is 5 to 6 inches shorter than, Haye is 6 ft 1 at best.
Also i remember Haye being stopped a few years ago by Carl Thompson at cruiserweight, Thompson was past it at this stage of his career and he was never considered a great fighter at any stage but he toughed it out against Haye and by the later rounds Haye was gassed out so sgree with Walsh b on this one no way Haye would beat Rocky Marciano, the man would would eat Haye up and spit him out

Haye has nothing but a "good punch" and neat feet. That will not be near enough to beat Rocky Marciano. I really think Haye would probably quit in pain, with tears running down his face after maye 6 or 7 rds. Arms, hips and head quite sore too.

cowzerp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1I_hOqhGds

His head is up to Wlad's eye's-how big a forehead do you think Wlad has?!

he is 6,3"

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Haye has nothing but a "good punch" and neat feet. That will not be near enough to beat Rocky Marciano. I really think Haye would probably quit in pain, with tears running down his face after maye 6 or 7 rds. Arms, hips and head quite sore too.

Your using the Myth of Marciano again instead of the 1 in the video swinging like a mad man toe to toe, He would struggle to get in that close to Haye and would also never have been hit as fast and hard as Haye would hit him.

walshb

No, you seem caught up in the hype from Haye. And I know you don't rate him, or Rocky! What has he done to suggest he could fend off and keep off a peak Marciano?

You don't beat Ezzard Charles and JJW 2 times each if you are not top class. And, say all you want, both men were very good at the time Rocky beat them, and as big as Rocky too. Haye doen't come close to their overall capability.

Like I said, he has a punch, that is it. And, you, like me, don't rate that punch as all that great. If Haye had stamina, a consistent jab and a better workrate I could argue a case for him. 20-30 punches a rod doesn't beat Marciano; unless they are of the Tyson or Foreman variety.

How does Haye beat him? Please, don't say points.:)

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

No, you seem caught up in the hype from Haye. And I know you don't rate him, or Rocky! What has he done to suggest he could fend off and keep off a peak Marciano?

You don't beat Ezzard Charles and JJW 2 times each if you are not top class. And, say all you want, both men were very good at the time Rocky beat them, and as big as Rocky too. Haye doen't come close to their overall capability.

Like I said, he has a punch, that is it. And, you, like me, don't rate that punch as all that great. If Haye had stamina, a consistent jab and a better workrate I could argue a case for him. 20-30 punches a rod doesn't beat Marciano; unless they are of the Tyson or Foreman variety.

How does Haye beat him? Please, don't say points.:)

he has good feet as you alluded too, he is hard to hit for a 6,6" boxer like Wlad-a 5,10" maybe 11" fighter with flat feet will not attack and land on him too easy-i'm not saying the Rock can't beat Haye but you made it out like Haye cant beat the Rock-im sure he can.

I don't rate Haye but this shows the gulf in today from yesteryear.

Jersey joe, come on he is muck-Ezzard charles was not great in any era.

I don't believe you watched the videos i put up and have your mind well and truly made up.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

he has good feet as you alluded too, he is hard to hit for a 6,6" boxer like Wlad-a 5,10" maybe 11" fighter with flat feet will not attack and land on him too easy-i'm not saying the Rock can't beat Haye but you made it out like Haye cant beat the Rock-im sure he can.

I don't rate Haye but this shows the gulf in today from yesteryear.

Jersey joe, come on he is muck-Ezzard charles was not great in any era.

I don't believe you watched the videos i put up and have your mind well and truly made up.

Love that word, muck:D

I can't watch the vids here at the moment. I have watched enough of Rocky and Haye.

Ok, Haye has a 1/20 chance to beat Rocky. Can't go better than that. 20 fights I would say he wins 1, or 5/100, or 50/1000:P

walshb

Maybe I am being too harsh on Haye's chances. He is not incompetent. He has skills, speed, power and feet, and yes, this along with his size will be problematic. I just think he has not got the workrate, stamina or heart to battle to a win against a Marciano with two fisted power, relentless energy, varied power shots, great workrate, and a good enough chin.

Sure, Rocky at times will find it difficult to get in to let go, but he was no dummy. He had dips, feints, and subtle attacking feet. Haye could run and survive here, but won't unload enough to win. Haye will need a decent sized ring.

And, Rocky is well capable of timing and landing a Suzie Q.

Littlehorny

cowzerp wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1I_hOqhGds

His head is up to Wlad's eye's-how big a forehead do you think Wlad has?!

he is 6,3"

Thanks for proving my point by putting that picture up:)
Look at the height difference, also look at the advertising behind them with the horizontal lines. As i said there is a 5 inch difference in height between those two men, Haye ia about 6ft 1. Tyson used to be announced as 5 11 1/2 but everyone knew he was more about 5ft 10.

gene_tunney

Littlehorny wrote: »

Thanks for proving my point by putting that picture up:)
Look at the height difference, also look at the advertising behind them with the horizontal lines. As i said there is a 5 inch difference in height between those two men, Haye ia about 6ft 1. Tyson used to be announced as 5 11 1/2 but everyone knew he was more about 5ft 10.

Yeah, I've looked into this before. Most professional athletes who are a not huge get their height artificially reported.

Haye is 6'1 and a half, 6'2 at the very max.

Audley is 6'5 maybe 6'6' at the very tallest but probably closer to 6'5.



The height difference is significant.

Frankie Lee

gene_tunney wrote: »

Yeah, I've looked into this before. Most professional athletes who are a not huge get their height artificially reported.

Haye is 6'1 and a half, 6'2 at the very max.

Audley is 6'5 maybe 6'6' at the very tallest but probably closer to 6'5.



The height difference is significant.

I'm almost certain that there was rumours of Audley Harrison being made look taller for silly promotional reason in that fight.

A more accurate height comparison is this

Maravilla33

I'd go as far as saying Haye has no chance against Marciano and i'm not a big Rocky fan. In saying that I really admire the guy. He doesn't throw enough to beat Rocky on points and doesn't hit hard enough to stop him. Haye might be hard for someone like Wlad to hit who mainly throws single shots. Rocky will be all over him throwing tonnes of punches. He doesnt care where they land. Arms, shoulders , neck they're all going to take their toll. He could do this for 15 rounds, had a great chin and recuperative powers and could bang. Haye's chin is iffy and his stamina questionable. This doesn't bode well against someone like Rocky.

Littlehorny

Maravilla33 wrote: »

I'd go as far as saying Haye has no chance against Marciano and i'm not a big Rocky fan. In saying that I really admire the guy. He doesn't throw enough to beat Rocky on points and doesn't hit hard enough to stop him. Haye might be hard for someone like Wlad to hit who mainly throws single shots. Rocky will be all over him throwing tonnes of punches. He doesnt care where they land. Arms, shoulders , neck they're all going to take their toll. He could do this for 15 rounds, had a great chin and recuperative powers and could bang. Haye's chin is iffy and his stamina questionable. This doesn't bode well against someone like Rocky.

Nail on the head there lad! Haye has shown he can be hurt and his muscular frame means he tightens up and tires as the fight progresses. If he shows the fear he had is his last fight he would be pummeled.

gene_tunney

Maravilla33 wrote: »

I'd go as far as saying Haye has no chance against Marciano and i'm not a big Rocky fan. In saying that I really admire the guy. He doesn't throw enough to beat Rocky on points and doesn't hit hard enough to stop him. Haye might be hard for someone like Wlad to hit who mainly throws single shots. Rocky will be all over him throwing tonnes of punches. He doesnt care where they land. Arms, shoulders , neck they're all going to take their toll. He could do this for 15 rounds, had a great chin and recuperative powers and could bang. Haye's chin is iffy and his stamina questionable. This doesn't bode well against someone like Rocky.

You do realise that Marciano was being schooled by 38 year old Jersey Joe Walcott in their 1952 match until he landed that one big lucky punch in the 13th.

38 year old Walcott had 16 losses on his resume going into the fight.

Littlehorny

gene_tunney wrote: »

You do realise that Marciano was being schooled by 38 year old Jersey Joe Walcott in their 1952 match until he landed that one big lucky punch in the 13th.

38 year old Walcott had 16 losses on his resume going into the fight.

You do realise David Haye was knocked out by an average 40 year old cruiserweight called Carl Thompson in 5 rounds and that was not a "lucky" punch.

gene_tunney

Littlehorny wrote: »

You do realise David Haye was knocked out by an average 40 year old cruiserweight called Carl Thompson in 5 rounds and that was not a "lucky" punch.

Yup. I don't rate Haye highly. But as a much bigger, faster, stronger and more technical boxer he would make easy work of the 180lb Marciano and his bum-of-the-month club.

walshb

gene_tunney wrote: »

You do realise that Marciano was being schooled by 38 year old Jersey Joe Walcott in their 1952 match until he landed that one big lucky punch in the 13th.

38 year old Walcott had 16 losses on his resume going into the fight.

You really need to get away from boxrec and look at JJW and Haye. JJW could box, bang, slug and throw shots. Haye is a 30 punch a round runner, spoiler, with decent power. They are worlds apart as regards skills, tactics, boxing acumen and moves. Haye will never ever give Rocky issues like a skilled boxer like JJW did.

Seriously, you are coming here and saying that David Haye is now a more skilled and technical fighter than the master boxer/puncher slickster JJW? This is ridiculous. I don't believe you have ever watched JJW to come out with something like this.

cowzerp

JJW compared to today's fighters is not skillfull, you's ate dreamers and need to go look at a few clips of him, and Haye was only a 30 punch a round fighter v the big boys-he's technically streets ahead of Walcott and Rocky

cowzerp

Aldo It took 5 efforts for Walcott to win the title and he only defended it once, he lost 15 and drew 1 in 57 fights before his title shot, His opposition was also gank!

Maravilla33

cowzerp wrote: »

JJW compared to today's fighters is not skillfull, you's ate dreamers and need to go look at a few clips of him, and Haye was only a 30 punch a round fighter v the big boys-he's technically streets ahead of Walcott and Rocky

I really don't get what these great advances in technique are that you see? Haye barely throws a jab, doesnt have much versatility and basically potshots and then throws his Hayemaker. There's nothing amazing there. I think you're the one who needs to watch some videos of JJW. He was a slick, multi skilled boxer with a fine defense. If you're matched hard you're gonna have a few losses. Boxrec only tells half the story...

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

JJW compared to today's fighters is not skillfull, you's ate dreamers and need to go look at a few clips of him, and Haye was only a 30 punch a round fighter v the big boys-he's technically streets ahead of Walcott and Rocky

Well then, Jack Johnson is also not skilled in today's terms? You posted a vid of Jack and you were quite praising. JJW is every bit as skilled as Jack, maybe more so.

Really, what do you see in say, Haye, that would lead you to say that he is a finer technician/boxer than JJW? I am bewildered.

I cannot name one heavy today who was as slick/technical/fluid/cool as a peak JJW. Really, the guy was an old school master with moves that any man ever would be proud of. Today, yesterday or tomorrow.

BTW, what has boxrecs win/loss record got to do with technique and skill? Put Haye in the 70s and he would have lost most of his fights.

As for JJW opposition. And who has Haye beaten at HW? Ruiz and Barret and Harrisson. Pathetic resume.

cowzerp

This is the point, this hard opposition would be journey men these days, the clips of all these lads show how poor and how sluggers where the norm back then. Technical boxers where in the minority

Maravilla33

Even if that is true JJW would be in that minority.

cowzerp

Tomorrow I will post up clips of this bad technique-Johnson was an exception and certainly not the rule, plus he'd be a nobody today either but as I said was a million miles ahead of most from 1960 or before