Top 90's heavyweight boxers vs top 70's heavyweight boxers?

Maravilla33

walshb wrote: »

This is one of the most unhelpful and unproductive posts I've seen in a long time.

Don't know what I've done to poor Gene but that's the 2nd time hes wrote something like that. First time was something like I'm dumb and have no knowledge of boxing.....


Anyway Cowzerp, Walshb and anyone else who have contributed constructively to this debate its been good. It would be boring if we all agreed..

walshb

I really liked the list and the scoring method too.

I would agree with most, and maybe add in a category

Versatility/variation: I think Sonny was a more rounded and complete fighter.

Anyway, in a ten fight series I think Wlad certainly has the capability to win 3, maybe 4. Put the Vit toughness/chin on him, and he wins 6 and maybe 7.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Anyway, in a ten fight series I think Wlad certainly has the capability to win 3, maybe 4. Put the Vit toughness/chin on him, and he wins 6 and maybe 7.

:P you've got to be shiiting me!!
Bren your breaking my heart here

No way Liston beats Vitali ever ever ever...., Wlad we'll give him a chance so he might win 2 out of 10 but c'mon man-they are worlds apart-too big, too hard to hit and both have power and skill to back it up.

It is also worth noting that nobody Ko'd Wlad either, his chin is been underestimated, he was stopped by the ref but was still standing in his fights TKO's.

cowzerp

I'm neutral apparently

Power - Wlad 10 Liston 9
Stamina - Wlad 9 Liston 9
Experience - Wlad 10 Liston 8 he only started Boxing at 19 or so, Wlad was an olympic champion.
Ring generalship - Wlad 10 Liston 7
Strength - Wlad 10 Liston 9 (No doubt Wlads strong but doesn't need to use it)
Skill - Wlad 10 Liston 8
Body work - Wlad 7 Liston 8
Chin - Wlad 8 Liston 8
Jab - Wlad 10 Liston 10
Defence - Wlad 10 Liston 8
Attack - Wlad 9 Liston 10
Durability - Wlad 8 Liston 8
Workrate - Wlad 9 Liston 10
Cut/swellings - Wlad 10 Liston 10
Speed - Wlad 9 Liston 7

Wlad 139 - 129 Liston

I scored that as honestly as I could too.

Maravilla33

cowzerp wrote: »

:P you've got to be shiiting me!!
Bren your breaking my heart here

No way Liston beats Vitali ever ever ever...., Wlad we'll give him a chance so he might win 2 out of 10 but c'mon man-they are worlds apart-too big, too hard to hit and both have power and skill to back it up.

It is also worth noting that nobody Ko'd Wlad either, his chin is been underestimated, he was stopped by the ref but was still standing in his fights TKO's.

In a 10 fight series Vs Wlad I'd go maybe 7-3 to Liston. Wlad is capable of winning but has to not be hit flush. Key here is Liston's jab and reach. He doesn't have to KO Wlad to win. He can outjab him and if he lands a few big shots its goodnight.

Against Vitali I'm nowhere near as sure. Vitali will come to fight and wont mind taking some shots to land his own. His size and the fact he will use his size aggressively makes him a much tougher and more awkward opponent. Prime for prime I cant see a KO for either. I see this as being pretty level and wouldnt be surprised if they split it 5-5.

Maravilla33

cowzerp wrote: »

I'm neutral apparently

Power - Wlad 10 Liston 9
Stamina - Wlad 9 Liston 9
Experience - Wlad 10 Liston 8 he only started Boxing at 19 or so, Wlad was an olympic champion.
Ring generalship - Wlad 10 Liston 7
Strength - Wlad 10 Liston 9 (No doubt Wlads strong but doesn't need to use it)
Skill - Wlad 10 Liston 8
Body work - Wlad 7 Liston 8
Chin - Wlad 8 Liston 8
Jab - Wlad 10 Liston 10
Defence - Wlad 10 Liston 8
Attack - Wlad 9 Liston 10
Durability - Wlad 8 Liston 8
Workrate - Wlad 9 Liston 10
Cut/swellings - Wlad 10 Liston 10
Speed - Wlad 9 Liston 7

Wlad 139 - 129 Liston

I scored that as honestly as I could too.

Only a 10 point win for Wlad I'm impressed

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

:P you've got to be shiiting me!!
Bren your breaking my heart here

No way Liston beats Vitali ever ever ever...., Wlad we'll give him a chance so he might win 2 out of 10 but c'mon man-they are worlds apart-too big, too hard to hit and both have power and skill to back it up.

It is also worth noting that nobody Ko'd Wlad either, his chin is been underestimated, he was stopped by the ref but was still standing in his fights TKO's.

I am saying that with Vit's toughness and chin he could win more than he loses. Can't be more generous than this. Liston is a helluva fighter. Wlad to me is the better boxer than Vitali, but Vitali has the fighter in him more. The combination of both brothers' sees Wlad beating Liston more than losing to Liston

I do believe that Liston can beat Vitali. Absolutely. Vitali will not KO Liston, and Liston will not KO Vitali. But Sonny has the strength and skill and power to keep Vitali honest. Points win is not out of the question for a peak Liston.

cowzerp

Maravilla33 wrote: »

In a 10 fight series Vs Wlad I'd go maybe 7-3 to Liston. Wlad is capable of winning but has to not be hit flush. Key here is Liston's jab and reach. He doesn't have to KO Wlad to win. He can outjab him and if he lands a few big shots its goodnight.

Liston Highlights beating up the handbags!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igIM4ey7IwI

Vitali highlights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DH_vzxFTEo

Wladimir

badabing106

Maravilla33 wrote: »

I'm neutral... You are right though anything before the 80s is a myth....

Head to head hes a match for anyone. OK lets match them up head to head on a 15 round scoring system. Note: I'm scoring this as if it was a fight not giving them 10/10 for certain traits etc..

Power - Wlad 10 Liston 10
Stamina - Wlad 10 Liston 10
Experience - Wlad 10 Liston 10
Ring generalship - Wlad 10 Liston 9
Strength - Wlad 9 Liston 10 (No doubt Wlads strong but doesn't use it)
Skill - Wlad 10 Liston 9
Body work - Wlad 9 Liston 10
Chin - Wlad 9 Liston 10
Jab - Wlad 10 Liston 10
Defence - Wlad 10 Liston 9
Attack - Wlad 9 Liston 10
Durability - Wlad 9 Liston 10
Workrate - Wlad 10 Liston 10
Cut/swellings - Wlad 10 Liston 10
Speed - Wlad 10 Liston 9

Wlad 145 - 146 Liston

I scored that as honestly as I could and will back up any of the scoring if needed.

Edit: Obviously this proves nothing if they did actually meet but just a bit of fun..

I haven't laughed so hard in a long time, thank you!

Maravilla33

badabing106 wrote: »

I haven't laughed so hard in a long time, thank you!

Care to elaborate? What bits do you disagree with?

cowzerp

The first better fighter he faced was Summerlin, he won viá close UD, and in the rematch he only managed to win viá SD. But he was very young and green, OK. Next better opponent was Marshall, who he lost. In a rematch, he won viá TKO in the 6th round, but he was himself knocked down in the 4th round. And Marshall was a light-hitting fighter with only 179 lbs, he had only 11 KO´s in his 38 fights. But Sonny was still green (later, when Marshall was totally shot, Liston beat him again viá an UD, but that doesn´t count for me, Marty was a last minute substitute for Harold Johnson). Than, in his 19th pro-fight he TKO´d Bethea in the first round, a good win, because Bethea had a pretty good chin, and it showed that Sonny had good power, but some Liston-fans overact with this win, Bethea was only a journeyman. Than, some fights later, he TKO´d DeJohn in the 6th round. Than he had his fight against Cleveland Williams, a fighter, whose record looks good on paper, but in reality he only fought bums until Liston. Sonny TKO´d him in the 3rd or 4th round, his next fight against Valdes, who had at this time of his career 18 defeats yet, was a 3rd round KO for Liston, Valdes was totally shot and retired after a few months of this fight (he defeated London in his last fight). Than he rematched Williams and TKO´d him in the 2nd round. In his next fight, he beat Harris very early viá KO, but Harris is a fighter like Williams, who just looks on the paper good, he never beat someone beside 2 point-wins over Pastrano and Baker, and both were robberies in Roy´s hometown. Than he KO´d Folley in the 3rd round, a very good win because Folley wasn´t shot or anything like that and he was really good, IMO his 2nd best win after the Patterson-wins. Than he had a fight with Machen, a good fighter, but he went the distance and had some problems with him. The judges were ridiculous, Liston got 3 points penalized and he still won that fight pretty high, I remember this as a pretty close UD for Sonny without the point detuctions. Remember, Johansson KO´d the same Machen in one single round. Than he challenges Patterson, we all know he KO´d him twice in the 1st round, great wins, but look how Floyd was in shape, he was pysically in bad shape and also mentally, that fight shouldn´t have been made under this circumstances. Than after the Ali- defeats (it doesn´t interest me if he took a dive in the 2nd fight, fact is that he was twice KO´d by a mediocre-hitting fighter in Ali) he beat some mediocre fighters, and than against Martin, he lost viá brutal KO. Martin was also not a big man, and he had only 19 KO´s in his 36 fights. Of course he was shot there, but that´s no excuse to lose in such a way. My point is just, that his chin, power and in general his legacy is very overrated, and especially head-to-head. He often showed against at the best mediocre-hitting fighters that it is not too difficult to floor him, and he never faced a great puncher like let´s say Foreman or Marciano. All in all, I absolutely have nothing against him, it´s nothing personal, but I´m tired to read/ see how overrated he´s getting now...

Maravilla33

Ha and what about the article you read which painted Sonny in a much better light? You were happy to ignore that. One was written by a respected boxing writer who writes for a very good site. Coxs Corner. Theres a lot of good articles there if you're interested. I dunno who yours is written by.

At the end of the day though I'm gonna believe the article that describes Sonny as a great fighter you're going to believe the other one. We'll pick the one that matches our own opinions.

walshb

badabing106 wrote: »

I haven't laughed so hard in a long time, thank you!

Seriously, what is funny?

cowzerp

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Ha and what about the article you read which painted Sonny in a much better light? You were happy to ignore that. One was written by a respected boxing writer who writes for a very good site. Coxs Corner. Theres a lot of good articles there if you're interested. I dunno who yours is written by.

At the end of the day though I'm gonna believe the article that describes Sonny as a great fighter you're going to believe the other one. We'll pick the one that matches our own opinions.

This is not an article, it is an opinion, i just happen to agree with most of it-Look Liston defended his title once and only against the man he won it from-you defend that by saying he was old when in reality nobody knows his age old or young, that's speculation.

The fact he started old and went somewhere shows his heart and size at the time played a big part, 1 other reason why he did not get a title shot earlier is simply why should he have? he bet nobody at all worthy of been a challenger in his earlier fights but happily fought terrible journeymen.

No coincidence that he was in with the mob it must be said.

The clip I put up of Liston is genuinely the best I have seen on you tube and he is not that dissimilar to the clip of Sam Peter I put up but smaller and against smaller opponents too.

Oh and the writer who wrote that article you put up is most famous for saying that Bert sugar was a fraud who knew nothing about Boxing! jealous much.

Maravilla33

cowzerp wrote: »

1 other reason why he did not get a title shot earlier is simply why should he have? he bet nobody at all worthy of been a challenger in his earlier fights but happily fought terrible journeymen.

Only thing I have to pick up on really is this. He beat everybody he could have. Cleaned out all of the challengers that there were around at the time. Everyone around knew he was the best heavyweight around long before he got his title shot. Now if you don't rate them thats fine but he beat every challenger around as far as I'm aware.

sxt

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Only thing I have to pick up on really is this. He beat everybody he could have. Cleaned out all of the challengers that there were around at the time. Everyone around knew he was the best heavyweight around long before he got his title shot. Now if you don't rate them thats fine but he beat every challenger around as far as I'm aware.

That is fair enough, you can only beat what is in front of you. What was in front of sonny liston was abysmal fighters. Added to that , most of them were weighing in the size of small small cruiserweights for the majority of his fights compared to his 210ilbs plus frame. Sonny was massive compared to the majority of "challengers" he faced .

Sonny ( in his prime by the way) was shown up as being a limited fighter against Eddie machen ( again a small cruiserweight weighing in at 194 ilbs). Sonny was easy to hit , he was bullied by the smaller fighter, knocked back with single punches . Sonny looked like a truly defeated man at the end of that fight . He knew his number was up , his aura was gone . A small guy took him to school , stood up to him , walked him down , took his best shots etc

His next fight was against Howard King. I tried hard to find any tape of this guy in action but was unable which is a pity . king's record going into this fight was 37 wins and 21 losses . This wasn't the first time Sonny beat this guy either , he fought him a year earlier !

His next fight is against a very ordinary Albert Westphal who was 24 wins and 8 losses , and was coming off a loss ( a small cruiserweight weighing in at 195 ilbs)


After his two great performances against Howard King and Albert , he gets a title shot against Floyd Patterson ( who fought most his career at middleweight and weights in at 189 ilbs for the first fight ,) and knocks him out in round 1 and again in round 1 in the second fight ( Floyd was aslo knocked out in round 1 acouple of fights earlier by ingemar johansson )


Then he faces Ali , The one and only time he meets a guy that is both of very decent quality and of equal size to him. Liston who is still in his prime by the way ( Did someone on here try to excuse Liston by saying that Liston was actually 40 years of age and didn't know his own age , or did I dream that ) quits on his stool after the 6th round.

The less said about the next fight the better

walshb

sxt wrote: »

Then he faces Ali , The one and only time he meets a guy that is both of very decent quality and of equal size to him. Liston who is still in his prime by the way ( Did someone on here try to excuse Liston by saying that Liston was actually 40 years of age and didn't know his own age , or did I dream that ) quits on his stool after the 6th round.

This point about Ali's size is always noted. When they stood toe to toe Ali was as big, if not bigger. And, Liston is reported as saying, "Whoever said that that man can't punch?" Or similar words in relation to Ali's power.

Maravilla33

sxt wrote: »

That is fair enough, you can only beat what is in front of you. What was in front of sonny liston was abysmal fighters. Added to that , most of them were weighing in the size of small small cruiserweights for the majority of his fights compared to his 210ilbs plus frame. Sonny was massive compared to the majority of "challengers" he faced .

Sonny ( in his prime by the way) was shown up as being a limited fighter against Eddie machen ( again a small cruiserweight weighing in at 194 ilbs). Sonny was easy to hit , he was bullied by the smaller fighter, knocked back with single punches . Sonny looked like a truly defeated man at the end of that fight . He knew his number was up , his aura was gone . A small guy took him to school , stood up to him , walked him down , took his best shots etc

His next fight was against Howard King. I tried hard to find any tape of this guy in action but was unable which is a pity . king's record going into this fight was 37 wins and 21 losses . This wasn't the first time Sonny beat this guy either , he fought him a year earlier !

His next fight is against a very ordinary Albert Westphal who was 24 wins and 8 losses , and was coming off a loss ( a small cruiserweight weighing in at 195 ilbs)


After his two great performances against Howard King and Albert , he gets a title shot against Floyd Patterson ( who fought most his career at middleweight and weights in at 189 ilbs for the first fight ,) and knocks him out in round 1 and again in round 1 in the second fight ( Floyd was aslo knocked out in round 1 acouple of fights earlier by ingemar johansson )


Then he faces Ali , The one and only time he meets a guy that is both of very decent quality and of equal size to him. Liston who is still in his prime by the way ( Did someone on here try to excuse Liston by saying that Liston was actually 40 years of age and didn't know his own age , or did I dream that ) quits on his stool after the 6th round.

The less said about the next fight the better

Don't have time to respond fully to this but a few quick points.

Floyd Patterson was never a middleweight ever? He won the heavyweight title at 21. Don't know where you got that from but doesnt surprise me as you seem to like to make stuff up.

Also its well known Liston was past it vs Ali. Go read some history you'll find that is a general consensus. I'm not saying he would have ever beat Ali but his skills were greatly diminished.

I don't know where you've got this Eddie Machen opinion from. Go watch the full fight. Liston was deducted 3 points and still won a UD against a quick elusive fighter. But he won comfortably.

Finally, Liston had been fighting 10 years and had cleared out the division easily before he got a title shot. 10 years thats ridiculous. Hes not the best heavyweight ever at all but hes a damn sight better than you are alluding to. Also can you clear up why you're making things up re: Patterson? Was it a simple error? If so thats fine but its a bit misleading spouting these things as fact.. Ha wasnt as quick as I'd hoped but there was so much inaccuracy in your post.

walshb

Patterson was a MW; oh, in the '52 games!:)

Maravilla33

walshb wrote: »

Patterson was a MW; oh, in the '52 games!:)

Oh Ok I didn't think we used people's amateur careers to assess their careers... Sure wasn't muhammad Ali a light heavy for most of his career...

walshb

Floyd was small, but no smaller than some others. At 17 he was weighing in above 160 lbs. He was a 180-195 lb mature fighter during his HW reign whilst a champion.

BTW, Haye and Mormeck and Williams and Byrd, for example, don't beat the best Patterson. They may be bigger, but the gulf in talent is what separates them. Patterson was too talented to lose to these guys.

megadodge

Floyd was a very young middle when he won the Olympic silver, so it's to be expected that he'd grow, but what was generally accepted at the time was that he could quite easily have made light-heavy, but Cus D'Amato knew that the big moooooola was in the heavy division, hence he fought there.

I'm at a loss to see where this great talent was with Floyd. He had a very, very unimpressive reign, which was a showcase in how to match a fighter with the softest possible opposition until you have no choice. Pete Rademacher was making his DEBUT ffs!!!

I have no doubt whatsoever, that both Haye and Byrd would beat Patterson. Haye would KO him fairly quickly, as Floyd had one of the worst chins ever of any heavyweight champ (possibly explained by the fact that he was naturally smaller, but I think that's being too generous).
Byrd was a truly gifted boxer who operated at the very top of a much, much bigger heavy division when he also could easily have boxed his career at light-heavy. I think he'd outbox Floyd for a clear but never easy UD.

walshb

Well, I think you are overrating pot shotter Haye. Patterson could bang too, and is a far more rounded fighter than Haye. Haye has a puncher's chance, and that is it, and still, Floyd may not get clean knocked out. Patterson is the better boxer, as fast, and also can KO Haye.

BTW, I meant to type Brewster, not Byrd. Byrd is a fine boxer.

BTW, I said Floyd was too talented to lose to a Mormeck, Haye or Brewster or Williams. Not saying Floyd is the most talented, or a great talent.

gene_tunney

megadodge wrote: »

Floyd was a very young middle when he won the Olympic silver, so it's to be expected that he'd grow, but what was generally accepted at the time was that he could quite easily have made light-heavy, but Cus D'Amato knew that the big moooooola was in the heavy division, hence he fought there.

I'm at a loss to see where this great talent was with Floyd. He had a very, very unimpressive reign, which was a showcase in how to match a fighter with the softest possible opposition until you have no choice. Pete Rademacher was making his DEBUT ffs!!!

I have no doubt whatsoever, that both Haye and Byrd would beat Patterson. Haye would KO him fairly quickly, as Floyd had one of the worst chins ever of any heavyweight champ (possibly explained by the fact that he was naturally smaller, but I think that's being too generous).
Byrd was a truly gifted boxer who operated at the very top of a much, much bigger heavy division when he also could easily have boxed his career at light-heavy. I think he'd outbox Floyd for a clear but never easy UD.

Good post, agree with all of that. Patterson can't outspeed Haye, which was his main trick, and Haye bangs a lot harder. Byrd is simply 20lbs bigger, stronger, as quick if not quicker, very technical and the awkward southpaw stance is always an advantage.

Byrd is one of the most underappreciated boxers of recent times. He could have had an easy career at light heavyweight but instead decided to jump not one, but two divisions to mix it with the biggest and best. Impressive.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Well, I think you are overrating pot shotter Haye. Patterson could bang too, and is a far more rounded fighter than Haye. Haye has a puncher's chance, and that is it, and still, Floyd may not get clean knocked out. Patterson is the better boxer, as fast, and also can KO Haye.
.

Bren I'm not a fan of Haye as a heavy, but calling him a pot shorter is fine against valuev and Wlad, he'd hardly just pot shot at Patterson,

valuev and Wlad would beat floyd in 1, unless floyd pot shotted too.

Haye in the 50's would have been a fine boxer and a powerful 1 at that, the brothers would have been like terminators sent from the year 2012, you know the rest!

Maravilla33

cowzerp wrote: »

Bren I'm not a fan of Haye as a heavy, but calling him a pot shorter is fine against valuev and Wlad, he'd hardly just pot shot at Patterson,

valuev and Wlad would beat floyd in 1, unless floyd pot shotted too.

Haye in the 50's would have been a fine boxer and a powerful 1 at that, the brothers would have been like terminators sent from the year 2012, you know the rest!

Love the terminator bit. Not being sarcastic its a good line.

As for Haye there's no way he's a better heavyweight than Patterson. Patterson was very quick on his feet and with his hands. he was extremely brave and gutsy. He hit pretty hard for a small man. See his left hook that ko'd Johannson in their 2nd fight or the right that stopped henry Cooper. For a small man his resume at heavyweight before winning the title isn't bad at all.

To add some balance he was extremely vulnearable against big hitters. In an odd way he's a bit like Wlad. People knew he was fragile so he had to use his speed and skill to win fights and not take too many shots just like Wlad uses his size and skill to do the same. Once he won the title he and Cus somewhat cherrypicked opponents and avoided a few for a long time.

I see some giving credit to Byrd for fighting at heavy when he could have had it easier at a lower weight. Exact same could be said of Patterson he could have been one of the greatest ever light heavys and thats saying something cos that is a stacked division.

Maravilla33

megadodge wrote: »

Floyd was a very young middle when he won the Olympic silver, so it's to be expected that he'd grow, but what was generally accepted at the time was that he could quite easily have made light-heavy, but Cus D'Amato knew that the big moooooola was in the heavy division, hence he fought there.

I'm at a loss to see where this great talent was with Floyd. He had a very, very unimpressive reign, which was a showcase in how to match a fighter with the softest possible opposition until you have no choice. Pete Rademacher was making his DEBUT ffs!!!

I have no doubt whatsoever, that both Haye and Byrd would beat Patterson. Haye would KO him fairly quickly, as Floyd had one of the worst chins ever of any heavyweight champ (possibly explained by the fact that he was naturally smaller, but I think that's being too generous).
Byrd was a truly gifted boxer who operated at the very top of a much, much bigger heavy division when he also could easily have boxed his career at light-heavy. I think he'd outbox Floyd for a clear but never easy UD.

Good post and theres a lot of truth in it. Even the bits I disagree with you argue well.

cowzerp

Maravilla33 wrote: »

I see some giving credit to Byrd for fighting at heavy when he could have had it easier at a lower weight. Exact same could be said of Patterson he could have been one of the greatest ever light heavys and thats saying something cos that is a stacked division.

Patterson to me was talented but no Heavyweight-Byrd was over 200lb from 94 and fought Vitali and Wlad in 2000, Patterson was 200lb 1 time v a journeyman who was 14-20-0

I think the fact that Patterson was highly rated back then show's how poor the division was-peoples memories of these lads are totally distorted from listening to old timers talking gibberish, when i watch back the footage I usually do be shocked that i just believed what i was told about these guy's without using my own eyes-Put Herbie Hide in with Patterson and then you'll see the difference, A light heavy who fought at heavy who is bigger, far faster and more powerful than Patterson and he was not really a top fighter as a heavyweight, A challenger at best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlNwujdeZQE

go to 1.01 of this to here Ali's opinion

Or go below to see that Patterson was not quick, 10 mins of footage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_Plk85qE8c

Herbie Hide below for comparison

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yrh_DaosxE

walshb

I could get behind Hide beating Patterson, but not Haye beating Patterson. Hide can box and move and attack and punch. Haye can punch, but is nowhere near consistent enough or versatile enough should the punch not do the trick. Patterson can win this more ways than Haye.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

Patterson can win this more ways than Haye.

Did ya not listen to Ali!

too slow, too small, too feather fisted and too chinny-And it all proved to be true aswell in the fight.