LPG Conversion

Markdub2000

Given that the last thread i can find on the subject is back in 2007, would it now be ecomomically viable to convert??

fasttalkerchat

I thought about myself. Even if you do 15,000 miles a year it is worthwhile!

However that is assuming that your insurance doesn't go up.
My insurance wanted 3 grand a year!! 2 grand more than the same car on petrol.

Also make sure the place that converts it is certified since you need the certificate to get insurance.

Matt Simis

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

However that is assuming that your insurance doesn't go up.
My insurance wanted 3 grand a year!! 2 grand more than the same car on petrol.

Also make sure the place that converts it is certified since you need the certificate to get insurance.

That would be extremely unusual and you absolutely should not have accepted that answer. Im with Chartis via First Ireland broker and my Insurance quote didnt change in any way (zero increase) with the LPG conversion on my S8. Nor would I expect it to.

Which insurance company gave you that quote?

fasttalkerchat

Matt Simis wrote: »

That would be extremely unusual and you absolutely should not have accepted that answer. Im with Chartis via First Ireland broker and my Insurance quote didnt change in any way (zero increase) with the LPG conversion on my S8. Nor would I expect it to.

Which insurance company gave you that quote?

All of them! I used gocompare.
I hear that Direct Line are LPG friendly but they wouldn't give an LPG quote online.
I live in the North.

Matt Simis

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

All of them! I used gocompare.
I hear that Direct Line are LPG friendly but they wouldn't give an LPG quote online.
I live in the North.

Hmm, hard to understand that, did you ask around with other Northern LPG drivers what they do?

Guy:Incognito

Theres a thread from late last year but it was still avtive till recently I think, about a guy supposedly opening a garage doing LPG in NAAS I think and selling it cheap.

Acccessability to LPG is the biggest issue I'd imagine. You'll be a long time makign back the money if you can only access an LPG garage every 5 or 6 fills.

fasttalkerchat

Matt Simis wrote: »

Hmm, hard to understand that, did you ask around with other Northern LPG drivers what they do?

There are a few that a known to insure LPG cars but they penalise young drivers so I would lose that way. Also you need a big petrol engine because you lose acceleration on LPG. I'm driving a 1.2 Clio and wanted to go for a 1.8 2002 BMW and convert it to LPG but the insurance went wild.

Our man in Havana

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Theres a thread from late last year but it was still avtive till recently I think, about a guy supposedly opening a garage doing LPG in NAAS I think and selling it cheap.

Acccessability to LPG is the biggest issue I'd imagine. You'll be a long time makign back the money if you can only access an LPG garage every 5 or 6 fills.

That would be the main problem. Without a good network of outlets it is simply non-viable unless you live near an outlet.

fasttalkerchat

Our man in Havana wrote: »

That would be the main problem. Without a good network of outlets it is simply non-viable unless you live near an outlet.

The network up North is great. I have 2 in my town and one in my home town. Theres one every 50 miles or so if you drive on main roads.

Markdub2000

Yes I noticed there's one in finglas and one in Naas - not far from me so it might be worth while investigating further

Big Nasty

Here's something I heard today from an extremely reliable source. Most / all LPG pumps are old units and only have space for three digits on them. Apprently it's quite costly to recalibrate them and unless demand increases significantly they won't be. Therefore for the immediate future LPG will be charged at a maximum of 99.9c.

fasttalkerchat

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Here's something I heard today from an extremely reliable source. Most / all LPG pumps are old units and only have space for three digits on them. Apprently it's quite costly to recalibrate them and unless demand increases significantly they won't be. Therefore for the immediate future LPG will be charged at a maximum of 99.9c.

My local garage has a new automatic pump.
I cant see that stopping them! They could sell for 101.0 per litre and not show the .0

Big Nasty

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

My local garage has a new automatic pump.
I cant see that stopping them! They could sell for 101.0 per litre and not show the .0

I'm only repeating what the man told me so I presume they were XX.X so if you tried the above you would only be charging 10.1c per litre.

fasttalkerchat

I called my insurance company and they gave me a reasonable quote. Seems to be that the online quotes go mad for any modifications.

Car Freak 2012

Just wondering is it actually viable to convert to LPG...does engine size matter and what mpg results has anyone got from the conversion?

fasttalkerchat

Car Freak 2012 wrote: »

Just wondering is it actually viable to convert to LPG...does engine size matter and what mpg results has anyone got from the conversion?

From my own research you need a minimum 1.6 petrol engine and take into account servicing costs. If you're doing less than 20,000 miles per year don't bother.

Kenny Logins

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Here's something I heard today from an extremely reliable source. Most / all LPG pumps are old units and only have space for three digits on them. Apprently it's quite costly to recalibrate them and unless demand increases significantly they won't be. Therefore for the immediate future LPG will be charged at a maximum of 99.9c.

My local station has "x 2" taped on to the pump.

Kenny Logins

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I thought about myself. Even if you do 15,000 miles a year it is worthwhile!

However that is assuming that your insurance doesn't go up.
My insurance wanted 3 grand a year!! 2 grand more than the same car on petrol.

Also make sure the place that converts it is certified since you need the certificate to get insurance.

That's crazy!

101sean

The only thing that's stopped me gassing my 3.5 V8 powered 101 has been lack of outlets selling it. With the price of fuel now I'm seriously re-thinking it, I burn €100- 120 of petrol every time I go to a show in it and I can DIY fit a kit for around €600 as it's on carbs. In my case it would make running cost similar to a diesel conversion without it sounding like a feckin' tractor!

You'd want to be doing a lot of miles to justify the cost in a modern fuel injected car, it's DIYable but probably well beyond most owners capability so conversion cost is going to be high. Power loss used to be typically 5-10% on lpg but would be less noticeable with a modern system.

I'll probably buy a kit from these guys and there's some useful info on the site - http://www.tinleytech.co.uk/

H3llR4iser

LPG conversions are incredibly popular in Italy for a number of reasons (petrol costs and the fact that it brings almost any car up to date with the latest environment protection laws) and I hadseveral.

As a matter of fact, all cars I had were converted to LPG at some point. There we go:

- Renault 5 0.9 liters cabrs engine: barely any power loss (only noticeable uphill), never kept track of mileage but I was spending next to nothing on fuel;
- Alfa 75 1.8, carbs engine: never liked the LPG conversion, those 4 carburettors just didn't want to cooperate - reverted to petrol;

- Alfa 155 2.0 TS 16V, electronic fuel injection: ran very well. Power loss noticeable (I would say only 120-130 of the original 150 HP were available) but manageable, 130 hp were more than enough to get me through the 120km daily motorway commute...at speeds that would warrant a driving ban, maybe arrest, possibly imprisonment for life

- Alfa 156 1.8 TS, electronic fuel injection: again, very good results. Difference with petrol barely noticeable - nitpicking, the power and torque delivery are smoother than on LPG.

The only real issue I ever had was that performance would take a hit when using the air conditioning - a must in Italy, an accessory you'll use 10 times a year here

One of the main advantages of an LPG conversion, often overlooked by most people, is that you get extended autonomy - as long as you keep something in both tanks, you can switch when you run out of either. Seems pointless, but if you embark in long motorway journeys or drive in areas you are unfamiliar with and filling stations are few and far in between, it will come handy.

I would definitely go for a conversion, the only thing that would pose an obstacle is the fact that, in both Dublin and Cork, I hardly ever saw a fuel station that sold LPG...

Kenny Logins

I called two stations in Cork yesterday, one was €1.14 (unlisted) the other €0.79 (John Crotty).

http://ilpga.ie/autogas-outlets.php#Cork

I am seriously considering buying an LPG car, but the insurance issue is something I hadn't accounted for....

H3llR4iser

Kenny Logins wrote: »

I called two stations in Cork yesterday, one was €1.14 (unlisted) the other €0.79 (John Crotty).

http://ilpga.ie/autogas-outlets.php#Cork

I am seriously considering buying an LPG car, but the insurance issue is something I hadn't accounted for....

Amazing how ignorant and stubborn insurance companies are. Technically speaking, an LPG powered engine has cleaner emissions than any modern petrol or diesel engine - so they are preventing the adoption of more environmental friendly fuels by effectively equiparating them to the racer boy's ugly bits of dangling plastic, and trying to capitalize on it...

unkel

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

From my own research you need a minimum 1.6 petrol engine and take into account servicing costs. If you're doing less than 20,000 miles per year don't bother.

What research is that?

Some basic rough sums:

Cost of conversion for a 1.6l petrol: €1k

Price petrol €1.69/l
Price LPG €0.75/l

Fuel consumption on petrol 28MPG
Fuel consumption on LPG 25MPG

If you want to earn back your full investment in the LPG installation in 1 year, the break even point is only just over 7k miles!!!

After the first year the owner will save €140 for every 1k miles driven...

(this is of course presuming LPG is as widely available as petrol and you don't need to make a detour to get filled up. This is obviously not (yet) the case)

V480

Kenny Logins wrote: »

I called two stations in Cork yesterday, one was €1.14 (unlisted) the other €0.79 (John Crotty).

http://ilpga.ie/autogas-outlets.php#Cork

I am seriously considering buying an LPG car, but the insurance issue is something I hadn't accounted for....

There is a new outlet on the Tramore Road (AutogasIreland) selling LPG for 79 cent a litre. They have just opened and seem to be getting a fair bit of business already doing conversions. Handy spot in the industrial estate opposite the college.

Kenny Logins

V480 wrote: »

There is a new outlet on the Tramore Road (AutogasIreland) selling LPG for 79 cent a litre. They have just opened and seem to be getting a fair bit of business already doing conversions. Handy spot in the industrial estate opposite the college.

Yep, that's the one I called.

CiniO

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

From my own research you need a minimum 1.6 petrol engine

I had cinquecento 0.9 litre converted to LPG.
There isn't any minimum engine size you can convert.

galwaytt

Kenny Logins wrote: »

I called two stations in Cork yesterday, one was €1.14 (unlisted) the other €0.79 (John Crotty).

...how can there possibly be that much of a variance in the price if the same fuel? The margins can't be that big. Is someone misinterpreting Duty or something ?

fasttalkerchat

CiniO wrote: »

I had cinquecento 0.9 litre converted to LPG.
There isn't any minimum engine size you can convert.

Was lack of power not a problem?

Our man in Havana

Try €1.56 in Newbridge.

Average price is around 99.9 cent. Very few places under 90 cent anywhere.

CiniO

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Was lack of power not a problem?

In this car lack of power was generally a problem, no matter if petrol or LPG.

Anyway - difference in power on LPG or petrol was negligible.
This was 93 cinquecento without even electronic fuel injection (it just had carburator), so LPG conversion was also first generation (just plaing mixer with adjusting screw - no ECU).
Except from a need for permanen adjustment (once a month - i did it myself) it was running great. Average LPG consumption was about 7 litres/100km and this was mostly city driving.

H3llR4iser

CiniO wrote: »

In this car lack of power was generally a problem, no matter if petrol or LPG.

Anyway - difference in power on LPG or petrol was negligible.
This was 93 cinquecento without even electronic fuel injection (it just had carburator), so LPG conversion was also first generation (just plaing mixer with adjusting screw - no ECU).
Except from a need for permanen adjustment (once a month - i did it myself) it was running great. Average LPG consumption was about 7 litres/100km and this was mostly city driving.

That's it, same on my Renault - it was from 1984 and had a whopping 34 horsepower; needless to say, the power loss was negligible as there was none to begin with

TheChizler

galwaytt wrote: »

...how can there possibly be that much of a variance in the price if the same fuel? The margins can't be that big. Is someone misinterpreting Duty or something ?

I was in the one on Tramore Road yesterday chatting to the co-owner. He was saying it's cheaper cause they base their business on the conversions which subsidises it, whereas the more expensive guys in the northside are just gas suppliers (they also sell Christmas trees ).

Getting a 07 Multipla converted for a grand soon, however Zurich apparently need a full report from an assessor before they'll put it on the insurance .

sambucus

123.ie has told me that as long as I have an existing policy with them and supply an engineers report then they will cover me after I get the conversion done. No extra cost on the premium.
So have set my policy to start with them a few days before the car goes in will be losing five weeks of cover on my existing policy but the new premium is 40odd % cheaper. Volvo s60 2.0T

V480

TheChizler wrote: »

I was in the one on Tramore Road yesterday chatting to the co-owner. He was saying it's cheaper cause they base their business on the conversions which subsidises it, whereas the more expensive guys in the northside are just gas suppliers (they also sell Christmas trees ).

Getting a 07 Multipla converted for a grand soon, however Zurich apparently need a full report from an assessor before they'll put it on the insurance .

Let us know how you get on with that. Thinking of getting the same job done in the same place.

TheChizler

V480 wrote: »

Let us know how you get on with that. Thinking of getting the same job done in the same place.

Will do! Any idea of the cost of an assessor's report? That's the one thing delaying us now.
He had 7 cars' files, including a couple of newish beamers, lined up on the floor (they haven't got around to getting a filing cabinet yet!) and said it would be about 2 weeks to get through them, at most two days per car. They get tanks to order so a few days delivery. He showed us one he had just finished running, about 40 seconds on petrol to heat the engine and it automatically switched to LPG, the only notable change was a click from the engine bay as the injectors switched over, completely seamless! I was expecting a momentary loss of power but was pleasantly surprised. Yer man himself has been doing this for years in Poland and Belgium, and just moved over here. Thoroughly nice guy and knew his stuff.
That car gets through €100 a week so looking forward to seeing the results!

TheChizler

Just realized these guys have a website: www.autogasireland.ie

billim

have it in an opel astra 1.4,runs sweet and only 99cent a litre in tralee.

Our man in Havana

99 cents is not cheap at all. I found you are near the break even point in comparison to petrol at that level.

Matt Simis

Our man in Havana wrote: »

99 cents is not cheap at all. I found you are near the break even point in comparison to petrol at that level.

Thats very subjective to your numbers though.
Depends on the MPG and mileage. Realistically, anything from 20% cheaper than petrol upwards it a net gain, payback is a matter of time. 99c a litre at 20mpg over 25,000 miles is vastly cheaper than 22mpg at 160c a litre, "near break even" isnt even a concern, the owner passed it within months.

Wicklowandy

Someone said on the other lpg thread that he remembered cars in the 80s running on gas cylinders (sorry cant find the quote) doesn't sound right (cylinders are propane aren't they??) but if it was true, or lpg could be bottled in the same way, would that sort out supply issue?

Our man in Havana

If only it was that easy.

Yes it is propane same as you buy for your cooker or gas heater. The LPG cars of yore had the same fixed cylinders that were filled by a pump. Nothing has changed since the 80's.

Wicklowandy

Sorry for sounding stupid, but why isn't that easy if nothing has changed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_petroleum_gas

I just read this, does auto lpg have additives?

The Pontiac

Am I missing something here? The difference in prices between diesel and petrol family saloons (in particular) is usually a few grand. This was the case when I was pricing 5 to 6 year old Saabs a few months back. There's some serious bargains to be had in family saloon petrol cars.

So the money you'd save in buying the petrol car instead of the diesel, would surely cover the conversion cost? You then wouldn't have to worry about modern diesel problems - DMF, Particle filter, EGR valves etc. Or does the conversion have it's own set of problems?

The biggest drawback is finding a stockist. The one mentioned above in Cork is close enough to me, and has got me seriously thinking..

The Pontiac

Just seen there's one in Carrigtwohill, 10 minutes drive from me. I'd normally avoid the place, but grand for a fill-up.

Must do some more research. Any want to buy a Saab diesel?

Matt Simis

The conversion doesnt have its own problems (aside from yearly filter change) unless you have an engine that cannot tolerate the drier fuel (usually Jap or American/GM engines). In that case you need to either lubricate it inline with the LPG (via an auto lubrication injection system) or heavily lubricate the petrol and drive on it intermittently or similar.

Euro engines generally dont have this concern at all.. its addressable anyhow.

Aside from all this, people generally find less wear on the engine as the fuel is cleaner and combusts more completely (being a gas). Engine oil stays clean for long periods unlike Petrol and Diesel where it goes black in a matter of hours of usage.

If you can get the fuel at a station/dealer or via home installed bulk tank, you are set.

The Pontiac

Cheer Matt, great info there. I have two stockists close-by. The place in Cork that does the conversion is selling it @ 79c per litre. Not sure the cost per litre in Carrigtwohill. I'd nearly always be in the city at least once a week anyway.

Gutted I didn't come across this thread a few months ago.

We'll surely see more stations starting to sell it.

sorel

I found answers for many of my stupid questions here : http://www.lpgain.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=37&Itemid=103

Wicklowandy

Wicklowandy wrote: »

Someone said on the other lpg thread that he remembered cars in the 80s running on gas cylinders (sorry cant find the quote) doesn't sound right (cylinders are propane aren't they??) but if it was true, or lpg could be bottled in the same way, would that sort out supply issue?

Sorry to ask this again, but is this possible?

zilvinasb

LPG Conversions are very popular in eastern europe. Comparing the prices of fuel and gas, it is worth going LPG. But do some calculations first. It will cost you around 1000 eur to convert to LPG, so when is it going to start paying back? Good luck.

sorel

Wicklowandy wrote: »

Sorry to ask this again, but is this possible?

U can use cylinder and it's still possible, if you mount a good fitting of course. The question is : price LPG in cylinder from SPAR for example???. 11kg bottle of LPG is around 20 liters. It'll cost you €30...

Our man in Havana

Also it would not be legal or pass any safety inspections.