Leaving Cert '11/'12 Off-Topic 2

finality

A few years ago I used to be all "haha there's no god and some people think there's a god that's pathetic hurhur," but then I realised that there really is nothing pathetic or stupid about faith. I don't think it matters if there's a god or not, as long as people believe there is, their faith is what actually has an effect on the world. If someone's faith helps them to be a better person or makes them happy, how is that faith not a good thing? I'd really hate to destroy someone's faith, at the end of the day WHAT would that achieve? That's why I don't like Richard Dawkins, going out of your way to ruin people's faith just isn't admirable.

Chuchoter

I think faith is generally good thing, religion is a scourge however and anything good its ever done is far outweighed by all the suffering its caused.

rkeano5

Patchy~ wrote: »

One thing that really irks me purely for the ignorance (again not a personal thing at anyone!) is the general atheist idea of "hawhawhaw bearded guy in the sky", when no one describes any kind of God that way. Some people believe in spirits, no one says "hawhaw ghosts haunted houses", its the same idea. I dont really think much about how I'd imagine a God but clearly he's not sitting up there in the atmosphere and if he isnt human he'd hardly have a beard. :rolleyes:

As a proud atheist I will keenly contest that point . The whole human characterization of god came about solely as a result of the religious. God as the ''father'', ''loving all of us'', et al. are unmistakably human concepts.

It seems the LC off topic thread has finally become off topic

Dwellingdweller

finality wrote: »

A few years ago I used to be all "haha there's no god and some people think there's a god that's pathetic hurhur," but then I realised that there really is nothing pathetic or stupid about faith. I don't think it matters if there's a god or not, as long as people believe there is, their faith is what actually has an effect on the world. If someone's faith helps them to be a better person or makes them happy, how is that faith not a good thing? I'd really hate to destroy someone's faith, at the end of the day WHAT would that achieve? That's why I don't like Richard Dawkins, going out of your way to ruin people's faith just isn't admirable.

Aye Richard Dawkins is a dick, I hope I don't sound like him in this thread (I probably do... :pac:). But I can see where he's coming from. What Dawkins protests against is the way organisations like Islam and the Church manipulate religious canon in order to control people. That's just wrong. People defs need faith tho, Mother Theresa and many others for example were motivated to do wonderful things for people by their belief and faith. Also, without faith life really is meaningless, you've gotta have faith in something.

rkeano5

Btw, without this thread become unamiable (that would be terrible), I have to say that the religious concept of ''faith'' is certainly not a positive attribute imho.

Believing something with no particular evidence isn't a virtue in my eyes.

But hey, whatever gets you to sleep at night.

JonnyMcNamee

rkeano5 wrote: »

Patchy~ wrote: »

One thing that really irks me purely for the ignorance (again not a personal thing at anyone!) is the general atheist idea of "hawhawhaw bearded guy in the sky", when no one describes any kind of God that way. Some people believe in spirits, no one says "hawhaw ghosts haunted houses", its the same idea. I dont really think much about how I'd imagine a God but clearly he's not sitting up there in the atmosphere and if he isnt human he'd hardly have a beard. :rolleyes:

As a proud atheist I will keenly contest that point . The whole human characterization of god came about solely as a result of the religious. God as the ''father'', ''loving all of us'', et al. are unmistakably human concepts.

It seems the LC off topic thread has finally become off topic

Hahah yeah, the thread is starting to look like something fresh out of After Hours :pac:

FaoiSin

Chill out and sing along

Togepi

I just remember starting to not believe in god because, if there was one, how is there so much bad in the world?

But yeah, I'm not a huge fan of organised religion. Lots of people who go to mass get nothing from it. They just go because they're expected to, lots of them don't believe, and the prayers are a bit weird. Not everyone wants to pray for whatever the prayers even say/mean, which is hard to decipher because for most Catholics, praying is just rhyming off the prayers as quickly as possible. No meaning whatsoever. Ignorant too towards anyone who can't say them that fast! It just gives the impression people want mass to end as soon as possible.

And as I've said before I'm totally against baptising children. Let them make their own minds up about religion.

finality

rkeano5 wrote: »

Btw, without this thread become unamiable (that would be terrible), I have to say that the religious concept of ''faith'' is certainly not a positive attribute imho.

Believing something with no particular evidence isn't a virtue in my eyes.

But hey, whatever gets you to sleep at night.

Why is it not positive? Who does it harm? And not talking about extremists here :P

finality

Togepi wrote: »

I just remember starting to not believe in god because, if there was one, how is there so much bad in the world?

But yeah, I'm not a huge fan of organised religion. Lots of people who go to mass get nothing from it. They just go because they're expected to, lots of them don't believe, and the prayers are a bit weird. Not everyone wants to pray for whatever the prayers even say/mean, which is hard to decipher because for most Catholics, praying is just rhyming off the prayers as quickly as possible. No meaning whatsoever. Ignorant too towards anyone who can't say them that fast! It just gives the impression people want mass to end as soon as possible.

And as I've said before I'm totally against baptising children. Let them make their own minds up about religion.

I know I definitely never thought about the meanings of those prayers when I learnt them off, I literally had no idea what I was saying.

Cruel Sun

The main thing I don't like about religon is that I was never given a choice to be athiest. I was told from a young age that God was real and that If I went to church I was a good lad and would go to heaven. We were immersed in religon from as young as 4 years old, and I know this may seem a bit OTT but how is that any different from being brain washed. If you tell a 4 year old there's a God he's going to believe it, and If you believe something for a long time it can be difficult to stop believing in it and thus it's passed on through generations without anyone really making a concious decision.

The whole thing "DD" mentioned about control is true aswell, and it's fairly sick in my opinion. The way the catholic church see's homosexuality is equaly messed up if not more so.

When I was in about 2nd year a Gay celebrity died and I remember one kid in my year on hearing the news said something along the lines of "well good enough for him anyway, for being gay". I remember being fairly shocked at this, but the worst thing was many of the other people just nodded in agreement. He wasn't even trying to be cool that's just how he saw it. When a 14 year old says something like that you know something's wrong with society, I mean I understand it's not just religons fault, tv has to share some of the blame, but religon has a big influence on some people, and that's why it's dangerous, it has an awful lot to answer for when it comes to promoting homophobia.

Sorry for the rant. Just my opinion.

JonnyMcNamee

rkeano5 wrote: »

Btw, without this thread become unamiable (that would be terrible), I have to say that the religious concept of ''faith'' is certainly not a positive attribute imho.

Believing something with no particular evidence isn't a virtue in my eyes.

But hey, whatever gets you to sleep at night.

Dunno how faith can be anything but a positive attribute imho. It focuses people and can help some people out of very dark places! And as Finality said, it doesn't harm anyone.. usually!

Togepi

I'm also of the opinion that a bit of faith is no harm, if not good.

Also, Patchy, look what you've done to the thread! :P

rkeano5

finality wrote: »

Why is it not positive? Who does it harm? And not talking about extremists here :P

Oh course we're talking about extremists! , There is a school of thought out there that while belief/faith/delusion can be comforting to individuals it inevitably affects others. It can make good people do bad things as they feel they have ''permission from god''. Why else would someone take a knife to a newborns genitalia other than feeling it's divinely right?

Oh and teaching children in school to accept things on faith rather than evidence is not a positive thing! Lets get them questioning, not accepting.

Mysteriouschic

Religion is very male dominated too. The priests , pope , bishop all male. Not that I'd want to be one or that bothered. But if a woman did they wouldn't be allowed. The church I went to there was so much singing to . I can't stand the hymn's as I didn't like singing. Does anyone remember Sunday school for kids? I don't know if they still do them.

JonnyMcNamee

Dwellingdweller wrote: »

Yes, it is pretty relaxing. Faith is important in people's lives, in everyones, I agree with ya. It just depends what you put your faith into, I feel like the church and most of organised religion is a waste of energy and faith because for the most part the church is a quasi-spiritual body which exists mainly in order to exert influence and power over the community and society of which it is a part. That's why I'm against Catholicism (in practice) and most strands of Islam (in practice) and Hinduism (in practice). Buddhism, not so much, as you said, faith is important. Faith in Buddhism teaches you acceptance, peace, openness... which, as you can see, is a work in progress for me. :P I'm just trying to strike a balance tho, Buddhists sometimes cut themselves off from the world by their faith, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Back to my point tho. The bible says a lot of very true shít. So does the Qu'ran and all that other crap, but in practice, all these religions are are ways for certain people (the bishop, the mullah, the witch doctor, whatever) to exert influence over a given society. It's a wild cynical outlook, I know, but it's my .02$... and sorry if I'm coming across as a bit of a dick, I just feel quite strongly about this stuff. Also there are ways for communities to be interdependent and supportive of one, and to help each other in times of grieving and difficult without the interference of a central body like the Vatican, check this out.

Oh yea, when I called the whole idea of the Christian God a joke, etc, that was in no way me trying to take the piss out of their members (though there are some pretty nasty sheep in that flock). That was just an observation about the fact that there's a gigantic, massively powerful organisation called the Catholic Church dedicated to manipulating the idea of God so that they can manipulate people also. That's the joke. Not that people have faith or anything like that. I actually think faith in some deity or belief is a key part of life for everyone, but the way the Catholic Church twists the myth of God into a way to control people is, imho, mad.

I completely agree with ya, I don't even think a full reform could save the church now, it's gone to pure s**te. And I do agree with you about leaders too. Glad ya cleared that up.. I misunderstood and thought you were bashing anyone with faith

Dwellingdweller

Mysteriouschic wrote: »

Religion is very male dominated too. The priests , pope , bishop all male. Not that I'd want to be one or that bothered. But if a woman did they wouldn't be allowed. The church I went to there was so much singing to . I can't stand the hymn's as I didn't like singing. Does anyone remember Sunday school for kids? I don't know if they still do them.

If you think that's bad, look at Sharia Law in Islam. Another case in point of repression by religion. But in one sense, I see why they believe it's ok. Sociologically, Sharia Law promotes loyalty on the part of women to their husbands because they are fully dependent on their husbands in order to survive. It also creates a fascination on the part of men with women, because all they ever see are burkas. :P Thus the point of it is to ensure loyalty of one sex to another, and the punishments issued out for adultery and shít like that enforce it even further. I'm tempted to say that that situation in Islam has arisen because of what's written in the Qu'ran, but it hasn't. The Qu'ran has been edited tens of thousands of times since it was written, by Caliphs (Islamic kings, princes, scholars etc) who would pay a bribe of sorts to the people in charge of printing the Qu'rans in order to be allowed to add in their own little paragraph in at some point in the book - which of course, is treated as canon because it's in the Qu'ran :eek: Thus lots of shít that Muhammad and his bros never even believed in ends up being treated as gospel (so to speak). I know it's OT as balls, but it's a good example of the manipulation of religion by people in order to further their own interests.

Dwellingdweller

JonnyMcNamee wrote: »

I completely agree with ya, I don't even think a full reform could save the church now, it's gone to pure s**te. And I do agree with you about leaders too. Glad ya cleared that up.. I misunderstood and thought you were bashing anyone with faith

Haha, np man. Like I said I can come across a bit thick when I chat about this stuff, soz. :P

PictureFrame

On the topic of Religion, I remember getting kicked out of Religion early this year by my psycho Religion/Geography Teacher. She asked about our beliefs, (not in a nice way but more of a perturbing, condescending way). She literally went around to each person and said:

'So what do you believe in?'

And then stared each individual out of it until they answered.

My Friend told her she was Agnostic I think (Live your life without harming others and such), and she laughed at her. Really mocked and sniggered like :mad:

When she asked me I told her I was a believer in God, however there was a big difference between God and Catholicism in my mind. The whole thing of the bishops in big white hats looking at everybody in disdain as they bow before them and calls them 'father' or whatever truly sickens me.

I then told her that a lot of organised religion is just a lot of people looking for an easy way out of getting their sins forgiven (by waltzing to a mass for 30 minutes on a Sunday) rather than attempting to help others and improve the world.

She had a face on her like a slapped fish.

I really hate those 'uber religious people' or so they like to think, who in fact look down on everybody else and class others below them because they don't exercise their religion as strongly as them, or place any emphasis on religion in their life's. That's what's really wrong with the Catholic church IMO, too much respect for those who really haven't done much to earn it.

And don't even get me started on Priests with their brand new cars driving like some type of pimp or something around the place.

In the area I go to school, the priest had an 11 Toyota Avensis (greyish) and never took the protective seat covers off the seat, came back this year, right after the Christmas holidays- he had a brand new 2012 Toyota Avensis (greyish once again). Total greed and unnecessary spending of money when there's what, a child dying every 4 seconds in the 3rd world?

Priests seriously need to get off whatever power drive their on IMO.

I could actually discuss this all night, it has been the topic of many passionate Debates from our Debate teams regular meets among ourselves! The banter does be something serious :pac:

Canard

Togepi wrote: »

Also, Patchy, look what you've done to the thread! :P

WHOOPS :pac:

Dwellingdweller

PictureFrame wrote: »

On the topic of Religion, I remember getting kicked out of Religion early this year by my psycho Religion/Geography Teacher. She asked about our beliefs, (not in a nice way but more of a perturbing, condescending way). She literally went around to each person and said:

'So what do you believe in?'

And then stared each individual out of it until they answered.

My Friend told her she was Agnostic I think (Live your life without harming others and such), and she laughed at her. Really mocked and sniggered like :mad:

When she asked me I told her I was a believer in God, however there was a big difference between God and Catholicism in my mind. The whole thing of the bishops in big white hats looking at everybody in disdain as they bow before them and calls them 'father' or whatever truly sickens me.

I then told her that a lot of organised religion is just a lot of people looking for an easy way out of getting their sins forgiven (by waltzing to a mass for 30 minutes on a Sunday) rather than attempting to help others and improve the world.

She had a face on her like a slapped fish.

I really hate those 'uber religious people' or so they like to think, who in fact look down on everybody else and class others below them because they don't exercise their religion as strongly as them, or place any emphasis on religion in their life's. That's what's really wrong with the Catholic church IMO, too much respect for those who really haven't done much to earn it.

And don't even get me started on Priests with their brand new cars driving like some type of pimp or something around the place.

In the area I go to school, the priest had an 11 Toyota Avensis (greyish) and never took the protective seat covers off the seat, came back this year, right after the Christmas holidays- he had a brand new 2012 Toyota Avensis (greyish once again). Total greed and unnecessary spending of money when there's what, a child dying every 4 seconds in the 3rd world?

Priests seriously need to get off whatever power drive their on IMO.

I could actually discuss this all night, it has been the topic of many passionate Debates from our Debate teams regular meets among ourselves! The banter does be something serious :pac:

So, so true. Just one part of the problem though. Stranger still that most 'sins' (but not all) are simply ways to keep people in line, and people feel like they need to be 'forgiven' for committing them. :rolleyes: The stupid sins, like. Obviously nobody should kill or physically hurt another human being unless forced to, i.e being assaulted by a psychopath or something like that. But most of them are pretty arbitrary.

Cruel Sun

I'm actually hoping this comes up as a personal essay question on paper 1, it's way easier to write a good essay on something you feel strongly about.

Eathrin

Speaking of which, what kind of stuff comes up on paper 1?
I don't think we've ever really looked at it, the only paper 1 I ever did was at the mocks.

Dwellingdweller

Martin_94 wrote: »

I'm actually hoping this comes up as a personal essay question on paper 1, it's way easier to write a good essay on something you feel strongly about.

You'd better hope your examiner's an atheist. :pac:

rkeano5

Martin_94 wrote: »

I'm actually hoping this comes up as a personal essay question on paper 1, it's way easier to write a good essay on something you feel strongly about.

Me too. Although I'd be a bit worried about writing about politics/religion/drugs, as I could be insultingly extremist. I'd probably inadvertently offend the examiner.:o

Cruel Sun

rkeano5 wrote: »

Me too. Although I'd be a bit worried about writing about politics/religion/drugs, as I could be insultingly extremist. I'd probably inadvertently offend the examiner.:o

Well, that's better then just telling them what they want to hear IMO. :cool:

Togepi

Feck the examiners! :P I wrote about how much I hated the English language* in my Junior Cert English essay - got an A. :pac:

*I don't hate it anymore.

Cruel Sun

Dwellingdweller wrote: »

You'd better hope your examiner's an atheist. :pac:

LOL, it'd be just my luck to get a nun or pope benedict or someone like that!

Mysteriouschic

Eathrin wrote: »

Speaking of which, what kind of stuff comes up on paper 1?
I don't think we've ever really looked at it, the only paper 1 I ever did was at the mocks.

We went over it for the last couple weeks. Apart from the comprehension
Short stories , narrative , speeches, debate , personal essay, diary , letters , advertisement, radio interview, journal and article.

Mysteriouschic

I always avoid the the personal essays. Isn't it more personal things which would come up not a topic like religion would come up. That could come up as a debate or speech possibly.