The reality of cutbacks.

Welease

ardmacha wrote: »

No. But as a general proposition a country with a certain level of private sector pay should be able to support a public sector with a similar level of pay.

Perhaps you'd like to explain why this is not possible?

It should be possible (albeit difficult in the current circumstances).. But that is not what is being requested..

What is being requested is similar levels of pay along with excessive unnecessary employee levels (incl. jobs for life agreements in the HSE for unnecessary Admin staff) and poor management of resources (incl. financial waste). That is unsustainable given the current circumstances.

What the taxpayer (which includes PS workers) is getting in return is cuts to critical services to maintain that pay, staffing levels and waste. That is a model that is doomed to failure..

The CPA was put in place to maintain pay/staff levels via cuts in expenditure through efficiencies.. If it cannot deliver the levels required, then one of the other vectors (pay/staff levels) need to be addressed. If the unions etc. wish to maintain the high level of employment within the PS (even when unnecessary) then much like the meritocracy employed by the PS (or lack of) the funding should come from cuts to salaries across the PS irrespective of high/low performing areas.

later12

ardmacha wrote: »

No. But as a general proposition a country with a certain level of private sector pay should be able to support a public sector with a similar level of pay.

Perhaps you'd like to explain why this is not possible?

That's a statement of dubious usefulness, not least because we are in an economic adjustment programme, but also because that's not necessarily the best methodology to employ in assessing whether or not public sector pay is excessive.

I think collective bargaining and cognizance of private sector pay can have an important place in a country's fiscal policy, but (i) one must be mindful of the necessity of encouraging wage restraint and (ii) one has to take into account of the wage bill relative to current expenditure, which is probably the most common way of assessing whether or not a wage bill is excessive.

Godge

murphaph wrote: »

Depends how big the public sector is in relation to the tax generating private sector really.

The private sector has been hit very hard in recent years with many more people now net recipients where they would have been net contributors before.

IMO there are too many public servants in total (some departments however are undoubtedly understaffed) and the average public servant is simply not as efficient as the average private sector worker (again, with exceptions).

In my line of work, the project and the project deadline determines my hours, not my contract. We have a deadline this Friday and I'm leaving work now (left later last night) and I'll leave late tomorrow and Thursday. This is reality in the private sector (at least in the part of the private sector that the public sector wants its wages benchmarked against).

Next week will be a bit more relaxed but I'll still do 40 hours. I simply don't believe that the average public servant delivers as much to their employer as the average private sector worker, so to claim that pay should be the same is not really on.

Ireland's public service is relatively small by European standards. While some of the difference when you account for our small military, it is more difficult to argue that the public service is too large rather than too small.

later12

Godge wrote: »

Ireland's public service is relatively small by European standards.

Is this the case?

We have about 340,000 public servants according to the CSO, which although this has come down from 2008 levels, seems like an enormous amount of state employees. When you add in the semi state companies, the total number is closer to 400,000.

Compare that to just 1.1 million private sector workers in comparison.

It's quite a formidable public service on those numbers, especially when one considers that we are a very small island in terms of geography, with one of the most centralised public administrations in Europe.

Is there any data to back up the suggestion that Ireland's public sector is small relative to European standards?

Tigerandahalf

But you are not including all the private sector workers who lost their jobs. At the height of the boom over 2 million were in employment in Ireland.

woodoo

later12 wrote: »

Is this the case?

We have about 340,000 public servants according to the CSO, which although this has come down from 2008 levels, seems like an enormous amount of state employees. When you add in the semi state companies, the total number is closer to 400,000.
?

People who work a few hours as cleaners, home help workers, part time cooks (along with their dole) would have put themselves down as Public Servants

golfwallah

later12 wrote: »

Is this the case?

We have about 340,000 public servants according to the CSO, which although this has come down from 2008 levels, seems like an enormous amount of state employees. When you add in the semi state companies, the total number is closer to 400,000.

Compare that to just 1.1 million private sector workers in comparison.

It's quite a formidable public service on those numbers, especially when one considers that we are a very small island in terms of geography, with one of the most centralised public administrations in Europe.

Is there any data to back up the suggestion that Ireland's public sector is small relative to European standards?

Couldn't find anything on CSO website re number of public servants.

However, did find numbers produced by Department of Finance on Public Service numbers 2001 - 2009. This states there were 316,656 whole time equivalents in 2009 (up 17% from 2001). Actual headcount (incl. part timers) was 350,000. See page 12 on: http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/pressreleases/2009/bl100vol1fin.pdf.

This Dept of Finance report states "The imperative of controlling expenditure growth now requires that efficiencies and savings be found across all sectors". It goes on to give recommendations on how this should be done.

K-9

golfwallah wrote: »

Couldn't find anything on CSO website re number of public servants.

However, did find numbers produced by Department of Finance on Public Service numbers 2001 - 2009. This states there were 316,656 whole time equivalents in 2009 (up 17% from 2001). Actual headcount (incl. part timers) was 350,000. See page 12 on: http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/pressreleases/2009/bl100vol1fin.pdf.

This Dept of Finance report states "The imperative of controlling expenditure growth now requires that efficiencies and savings be found across all sectors". It goes on to give recommendations on how this should be done.

The Quarter 4 2011 CSO figures give it as 392,000 with a 2.4% drop in a year.