The reality of cutbacks.

RobbieTheRobber

pog it wrote: »

the fundamental difference is that in the private sector you don't enjoy security of job for life, nor do you enjoy 60k+ salary for basic enough job with just an ordinary degree behind you, you tend to get paid commensurate to the value you bring to the bottomline. You don't get to head off on a fishing trip with your friends in the business unless you have organised a day off with your manager and boss.

Also, nowhere did I say that if the public sector was fixed the economy would be fine. Where did you get that out of? By bent of sheer fairness and to bring these people back down to earth they need to get their salaries and perks cut and learn to realise how the private sector and those not on inflated salaries in the public sector live. The more people aware of reality the better. At the moment the public sector and the trade unions are taking us all for a ride. It's no longer acceptable when you have intelligent talented and qualified people leaving the country for jobs, and these idiots sitting on their holes on massive salaries and thinking that they are successful and better than those who are emigrating. Trust me, I have seen this attitude with my own two eyes, Thank christ I am built a different way and like to get on in life on my own steam.

I am guaranteed no job security for life, should this state fail financially I doubt my plea's of what about my job security that I had for life will be met with a positive response. :rolleyes:

I have a degree in the computing field yet I am not on 60k, recently Revenue sought recent graduates and experienced ICT people. The starting salary was 28k (minus the pension levy of course).
Is a degree in IT a stupid degree, easily achieved with a mere 300 points?
There was me thinking there was four years of college I had done but no i merely got 300 points in the LC.

Your posts reek of your own ignorance and a hatred of what you wrongly percieve others to have.
I feel like invoking Godwins law! :rolleyes:

At present I have a job under my present terms and conditions until 2014, now someone please point out where the security is in that?

Tipp Man

View wrote: »

Why not? You don't lose residency by being abroad for 2 weeks whether on business or pleasure..

That was sarcasm;)

View wrote: »

But people DO have to face many of the consequences of that vote without having any say in it. For instance, the NPPR tax applies to non-residents even though the non-residents may be forced to be non-resident property owners due to the fact they can't sell due to the collapse in property prices and/or having to work abroad due to the economic collapse at home.

I understand your point but the tax policies of a country should not be dictated or changed because some peoples investments have gone sour. If that was the case every emigrant who has an Irish property would probably vote for a government that wants all future tax increases to be placed on income, VAT or excise and NOT on property.

Tipp Man

murphaph wrote: »

Indeed. I am governed by the same income tax laws as tipp man, I just don't get to vote on the government that implements them. How unfair is that?!

Tell me this, does a German resident with a house the same as yours in Ireland pay the same taxes as you??

Noreen1

New development.

http://www.highlandradio.com/2012/04/13/convoy-man-has-pain-relief-treatment-restored/

The treatment has been restored.:D

Tipp Man

murphaph wrote: »

Indeed. I am governed by the same income tax laws as tipp man, I just don't get to vote on the government that implements them. How unfair is that?!

And just a further point

You are not governed by the same income tax laws as me

You are governed by the income tax laws of Germany - it just happens that you have an investment in Ireland which is subject to Irish tax law and which i assume you receive relief for in your German tax returns due to being in EU and double tax agreements

Should everybody with interests in Irish property get a vote then?

Noreen1

View wrote: »

You do realise that under the current system the relevant Minister can decide to fund projects in his own and/or electorally important colleagues constituencies even if they are less justiable than those in another person's constituency?

Under the system mentioned by the previous poster, such funding decisions depend largely on locals organizing themselves to do things (with central government usually operating a "top-up" scheme to deal with regional income disparities).

As it is, it should be pointed out our highly-centralised state overwhelmingly spends its monies in the Dublin area - new bodies set up by the state are typically located within a half kilometer or so of St. Stephen's Green...

Thanks, View.
I hadn't realised that, actually.

Since the treatment has been restored, it looks like the HSE has realised that they cannot justify decisions like this.

The next step, logically, is to demand grater accountability from both the Government, and State funded bodies, to address such issues.

It looks as though the Irish people are going to have to organise to demand the kind of reform that they were promised.

pog it

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I am guaranteed no job security for life, should this state fail financially I doubt my plea's of what about my job security that I had for life will be met with a positive response. :rolleyes:

I have a degree in the computing field yet I am not on 60k, recently Revenue sought recent graduates and experienced ICT people. The starting salary was 28k (minus the pension levy of course).
Is a degree in IT a stupid degree, easily achieved with a mere 300 points?
There was me thinking there was four years of college I had done but no i merely got 300 points in the LC.

Your posts reek of your own ignorance and a hatred of what you wrongly percieve others to have.
I feel like invoking Godwins law! :rolleyes:

At present I have a job under my present terms and conditions until 2014, now someone please point out where the security is in that?

I'll point something different out to you that i'm surprised I even have to point out. You are not in the 60+ k bracket that this guy is on, and he is nowhere near as skilled as you. He has just been doing the same job, effectively an admin role, for the past 10 years at least. So you don't really need to take it personally! I'm talking about those with no true skills, who can easily be replaced, who do have permanent jobs and job security, and plenty of perks, short days, and 60 + k a year. If you ain't ticking those boxes, i'm not talking about you.

P.s no hatred in my post as you called it. I'm calling out the facts here, and I begrudge nobody success who earns it. This guy and more like him cannot justify what they are on and we are running massive deficits so there is no way we can accept it any longer. It won't fix the economy but it will make the playing field more level and that is good for society. Let him and his ilk venture out into the private sector and see how they'll get on!

murphaph

Tipp Man wrote: »

And just a further point

You are not governed by the same income tax laws as me

You are governed by the income tax laws of Germany - it just happens that you have an investment in Ireland which is subject to Irish tax law and which i assume you receive relief for in your German tax returns due to being in EU and double tax agreements

Should everybody with interests in Irish property get a vote then?

If they are a citizen of Ireland, yes. Otherwise, no. All Irish citizens present in Ireland and all non-resident Irish citizens who hold just their Irish citizenship should be allowed to vote in Dail elections.

I am governed by the same income tax laws as you wrt my Irish income.

Germany actually doesn't give a monkies about income derived from rent (among some other things) originating outside Germany but inside the EEA. They stopped requiring this information on their tax returns 2 years ago.

Revenue on the other hand are very interested in my rental income (as they should be) and all taxable income must have its tax paid first and foremost in Ireland. Same income tax rates as you, but with fewer reliefs.

So, how do you figure that I am not governed by the same income tax laws as you? I have income and it's taxed in Ireland. If Germany did tax this income then I'd receive a relief for it here, but the tax wouldn't go to the Finanzamt, but to Dublin Castle, to be spent in my home country, in Ireland, where I get no say on how it is spent, despite being an Irish citizen.

sarumite

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Your posts reek of your own ignorance and a hatred of what you wrongly percieve others to have.
I feel like invoking Godwins law! :rolleyes:

I think you already did.

RobbieTheRobber

pog it wrote: »

I'll point something different out to you that i'm surprised I even have to point out. You are not in the 60+ k bracket that this guy is on, and he is nowhere near as skilled as you. He has just been doing the same job, effectively an admin role, for the past 10 years at least. So you don't really need to take it personally! I'm talking about those with no true skills, who can easily be replaced, who do have permanent jobs and job security, and plenty of perks, short days, and 60 + k a year. If you ain't ticking those boxes, i'm not talking about you.

P.s no hatred in my post as you called it. I'm calling out the facts here, and I begrudge nobody success who earns it. This guy and more like him cannot justify what they are on and we are running massive deficits so there is no way we can accept it any longer. It won't fix the economy but it will make the playing field more level and that is good for society. Let him and his ilk venture out into the private sector and see how they'll get on!

You are not calling out facts you are making up a story about a person and using it to define the whole public sector. Please do point out to me the facts in your posts that I seem to have missed though.

In any walk of life we can point out people who coast along and as a subsection of Irish society the Public sector will be no different.
Im not here to deny that, but I dont see how making up stories helps!

Brussels Sprout

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

recently Revenue sought recent graduates and experienced ICT people. The starting salary was 28k (minus the pension levy of course).

I don't think you'll find anyone who's complaining about what the current crop of entrants to the PS is starting on. It's more to do with the fact that the lower starting salaries (and 28k is a very fair starting salary for an IT graduate btw) could quite easily have been offset by a small cut in pay (and/or positions) across the PS (and not natural wastage cuts with their bumper payouts). The PS is quickly turning into a 2 tier institution with the division forming between recent entrants and those who started prior to them.

A classic example is of the senior teachers this week shouting about the lower wages and allowances for new graduates whilst at the same time making threats if their own allowances are cut. Can they not see the basic relationship here and that they can't have it both ways?

pog it

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

You are not calling out facts you are making up a story about a person and using it to define the whole public sector. Please do point out to me the facts in your posts that I seem to have missed though.

In any walk of life we can point out people who coast along and as a subsection of Irish society the Public sector will be no different.
Im not here to deny that, but I dont see how making up stories helps!

Robbie i can't help you further I'm afraid. You have some chip on your shoulder I think. I have already clearly outlined that I am talking about a particular group in the public sector on 60k plus salaries in admin type roles/middle management roles, etc. and you, being on 28k, do not fall into that category, so please tell me how I am trying to 'define the whole public sector'? If you want to argue a point against me, you really should read through what i've written first.

Also, it's not a made up story, it's a real case that I know about. If you want you could do a little google search for yourself and you'll find the total numbers of public sector workers and the breakdown of what they earn.. it won't take you long. You'll soon see how the majority earn under 30k, like yourself, but there are many, many others who are enjoying big salaries and these are not all doctors or surgeons or highly skilled staff.

creedp

pog it wrote: »

the fundamental difference is that in the private sector you don't enjoy security of job for life, nor do you enjoy 60k+ salary for basic enough job with just an ordinary degree behind you, you tend to get paid commensurate to the value you bring to the bottomline. You don't get to head off on a fishing trip with your friends in the business unless you have organised a day off with your manager and boss.

There'sa fair summary of the differences between the public and private sector!

K-9

Voting rights for ex pats is kind of going a little off topic for the thread! Might be better to start a thread on it rather than take over this one.

RobbieTheRobber

pog it wrote: »

Robbie i can't help you further I'm afraid. You have some chip on your shoulder I think. I have already clearly outlined that I am talking about a particular group in the public sector on 60k plus salaries in admin type roles/middle management roles, etc. and you, being on 28k, do not fall into that category, so please tell me how I am trying to 'define the whole public sector'? If you want to argue a point against me, you really should read through what i've written first.

Also, it's not a made up story, it's a real case that I know about. If you want you could do a little google search for yourself and you'll find the total numbers of public sector workers and the breakdown of what they earn.. it won't take you long. You'll soon see how the majority earn under 30k, like yourself, but there are many, many others who are enjoying big salaries and these are not all doctors or surgeons or highly skilled staff.

I never said what my salary was I said the most recent revenue ICT post were starting at 28k.
To be honest I have no intention of posting my salary here.

A skill is the learned capacity to carry out pre-determined results often with the minimum outlay of time, energy, or both. Skills can often be divided into domain-general and domain-specific skills. For example, in the domain of work, some general skills would include time management, teamwork and leadership, self motivation and others, whereas domain-specific skills would be useful only for a certain job.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill

I doubt your story is true, but if I acknowledge you do know of a person who works in the PS how are you so sure of what he does.
Have you Followed him around work for a week?

creedp

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I never said what my salary was I said the most recent revenue ICT post were starting at 28k.
To be honest I have no intention of posting my salary here.

A skill is the learned capacity to carry out pre-determined results often with the minimum outlay of time, energy, or both. Skills can often be divided into domain-general and domain-specific skills. For example, in the domain of work, some general skills would include time management, teamwork and leadership, self motivation and others, whereas domain-specific skills would be useful only for a certain job.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill

I doubt your story is true, but if I acknowledge you do know of a person who works in the PS how are you so sure of what he does.
Have you Followed him around work for a week?

Here is that an example of using an individual case to define the public sector. No one will claim the PS is perfect and acknowledge that much work is needed to reform the current system. There are no dissenters here. However, its funny to hear someone talking about people going on fishing trips/golf outings in the PS as if it never happens in hte private sector. For petes sake I know plenty of people who take the odd day/part day off for such leisure activities in the private sector .. the difference being in hte private sector they are often sponsored by the employer .. more luck to them I say! Too much begrudgery is poisonous!

pog it

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I never said what my salary was I said the most recent revenue ICT post were starting at 28k.
To be honest I have no intention of posting my salary here.

A skill is the learned capacity to carry out pre-determined results often with the minimum outlay of time, energy, or both. Skills can often be divided into domain-general and domain-specific skills. For example, in the domain of work, some general skills would include time management, teamwork and leadership, self motivation and others, whereas domain-specific skills would be useful only for a certain job.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill

I doubt your story is true, but if I acknowledge you do know of a person who works in the PS how are you so sure of what he does.
Have you Followed him around work for a week?

I don't care whether you believe it or not. Some others here will know it to be true because they, like me, may personally know of other such people.

Secondly it seems that for certain posters here that I will have to reiterate that I don't begrudge anyone anything. Why would anyone presume that I do? Is that part of your nature perhaps? It's certainly not in mine. Also I've got on well myself in life and love to see others succeeding also, that is someone who has worked hard and deserves. I'm delighted to see someone rewarded for genuine hard work and merit. When I look at the public sector, who rides on the energy of the private sector, I expect to get value for my money and I expect fairness. And there are some gaping injustices in the system. Thankfully, i'm not alone in these thoughts, the ECB are on to it now (see today's Irish Times) Cuts are coming, sadly it will happen to quality people like good teachers, good nurses, gardaí, etc. when it should be targetted at this admin crowd on 60k plus a year.

creedp

pog it wrote: »

I don't care whether you believe it or not. Some others here will know it to be true because they, like me, may personally know of other such people.

Secondly it seems that for certain posters here that I will have to reiterate that I don't begrudge anyone anything. Why would anyone presume that I do? Is that part of your nature perhaps? It's certainly not in mine. Also I've got on well myself in life and love to see others succeeding also, that is someone who has worked hard and deserves. I'm delighted to see someone rewarded for genuine hard work and merit. When I look at the public sector, who rides on the energy of the private sector, I expect to get value for my money and I expect fairness. And there are some gaping injustices in the system. Thankfully, i'm not alone in these thoughts, the ECB are on to it now (see today's Irish Times) Cuts are coming, sadly it will happen to quality people like good teachers, good nurses, gardaí, etc. when it should be targetted at this admin crowd on 60k plus a year.

So no good admin people:) I can only presume this applies in all sectors

RobbieTheRobber

pog it wrote: »

I don't care whether you believe it or not. Some others here will know it to be true because they, like me, may personally know of other such people.

Secondly it seems that for certain posters here that I will have to reiterate that I don't begrudge anyone anything. Why would anyone presume that I do? Is that part of your nature perhaps? It's certainly not in mine. Also I've got on well myself in life and love to see others succeeding also, that is someone who has worked hard and deserves. I'm delighted to see someone rewarded for genuine hard work and merit. When I look at the public sector, who rides on the energy of the private sector, I expect to get value for my money and I expect fairness. And there are some gaping injustices in the system. Thankfully, i'm not alone in these thoughts, the ECB are on to it now (see today's Irish Times) Cuts are coming, sadly it will happen to quality people like good teachers, good nurses, gardaí, etc. when it should be targetted at this admin crowd on 60k plus a year.

So thats no facts then?

pog it

I've already told Robbie to read the Irish Times today and do some googling for the figures in the public sector but it seems to be too much work for him.

Also you can't come up with anything to defend the admin staff on 60k plus a year unsurprisingly- oh sorry, yes, these are phantom people I of course 'made up' and also I was of course talking about everybody in the public sector.

femur61

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So thats no facts then?

http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/public-sector-pay-at-a-glance

RobbieTheRobber

pog it wrote: »

I've already told Robbie to read the Irish Times today and do some googling for the figures in the public sector but it seems to be too much work for him.

Also you can't come up with anything to defend the admin staff on 60k plus a year unsurprisingly- oh sorry, yes, these are phantom people I of course 'made up' and also I was of course talking about everybody in the public sector.

What admin staff on 60k are they named in the irish times today?

RobbieTheRobber

femur61 wrote: »

http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/public-sector-pay-at-a-glance

So do those numbers include the pension levy or not?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

creedp wrote: »

the ESB have continued to pay increases during this recession on the basis that they are a 'profitable' company just like happens in the private sector. ..

I was reading through so many diverse opinions here and this statement just couldn't go without reply. ESB has had a pay freeze in place for 3 years and it is to continue to 2014. As ESB is Private Sector (it may be state owned but it is classified as Private Sector). Pay in 2011 was 12% below 2010 and is set for a further 20% cut in 2012 and 2013.

Personally, I couldn't care less one way or the other but I hate to see facts misrepresented.

woodoo

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So do those numbers include the pension levy or not?

No they don't include the pension levy or the paycut of 2010

woodoo

woodoo wrote: »

No they don't include the pension levy or the paycut of 2010

Er, actually, they do - or at least they include the pension levy. The first note for Ireland says "Data takes into account the decrease in salaries following the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009".

From the phrasing, it's not absolutely clear that the data takes account of the 2010 pay reduction, but the authors seem to think that is the case.

Red Actor

pog it wrote: »

I don't care whether you believe it or not. Some others here will know it to be true because they, like me, may personally know of other such people.

Secondly it seems that for certain posters here that I will have to reiterate that I don't begrudge anyone anything. Why would anyone presume that I do? Is that part of your nature perhaps? It's certainly not in mine. Also I've got on well myself in life and love to see others succeeding also, that is someone who has worked hard and deserves. I'm delighted to see someone rewarded for genuine hard work and merit. When I look at the public sector, who rides on the energy of the private sector, I expect to get value for my money and I expect fairness. And there are some gaping injustices in the system. Thankfully, i'm not alone in these thoughts, the ECB are on to it now (see today's Irish Times) Cuts are coming, sadly it will happen to quality people like good teachers, good nurses, gardaí, etc. when it should be targetted at this admin crowd on 60k plus a year.

I wondered about the basis for the claim of 90% payrise in PS over 2000-2010. The CSO figures show about a 55% rise 2000 - 2008. Since then about 6% has been added (if we accept that €250m is added in increments each year) and the pay reduction (average 14%). This would put Irish PS pay increases since 2000 a bit below what was claimed to be the EU norm. This period includes the BM I and BM II.

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS

woodoo

Red Actor wrote: »

I wondered about the basis for the claim of 90% payrise in PS over 2000-2010. The CSO figures show about a 55% rise 2000 - 2008. Since then about 6% has been added (if we accept that €250m is added in increments each year) and the pay reduction (average 14%). This would put Irish PS pay increases since 2000 a bit below what was claimed to be the EU norm. This period includes the BM I and BM II.

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS

The staff deserve their increments. The PS is losing staff every year through retirements etc and the existing staff are taking on the work. Because of the recruitment embargo.

murphaph

woodoo wrote: »

The staff deserve their increments. The PS is losing staff every year through retirements etc and the existing staff are taking on the work. Because of the recruitment embargo.

Would it not be better to reduce average pay a bit and hire people as others leave? (in departments that actually need to replace staff, (not council planning departments or HSE admin for example)

n97 mini

woodoo wrote: »

The staff deserve their increments.

Wow, sweeping statement.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0411/1224314609624.html