The reality of cutbacks.

creedp

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

No harm in encouraging people to keep ties with the country by offering them a vote. Keep it restricted to first generation emigrants who are now resident elsewhere. Put in a stipulation that they have to travel to the nearest embassy or consulate to vote. The majority won't be bothered.

I like the view that the Irish Govt have to get off their butts and fix the Irish economy quickly so that I and my family can return and enjoy a decent standard of living. Problem is the current residents will have to endure a lot of pain before this will happen.

murphaph

Tipp Man wrote: »

I don't see why emigrants should get a vote in their original country.

The government is elected to run the country for the people in it, not the people who aren't in it. If that was not the case then emigrants could vote for parties/policies which are completly at odds with what the people living in the country want/need.

Its easy to vote for raised taxes, cuts in spending etc etc when one doesn't have to bear the brunt of the choices

What about the needs and wants of people forced to leave Ireland through the cack-handed administration of the country by a government elected by people living in it?

Ireland is fairly unique here. Most western countries allow their citizens to vote, at least for a period of time, after leaving their homeland.

As I said before, would you rather an unemployed civil engineer sat at home claiming several thousand Euro a year in benefits, keeping the right to vote or would you rather he left Ireland, was not a drain on the system and still retained the vote? Which is better for Ireland long term? People who have been directly affected to the extent of having to leave the aul' sod will likely have a much less parochial view and elect politicians in the national interest.

Noreen1

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

there is treatment fo him locally, just not this specific treatment

The treatment available locally is obviously inadequate - otherwise he would not have received treatment in Dublin.
Hence, you are being deliberately obtuse.
No-one, suffering chronic pain, will choose the discomfort, inconvenience, and expense of travelling to Dublin if there is an adequate treatment available locally.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I would be in favour of such a system, where each area has high/low taxes and high/low levels of services available. It would also be in accordance with what the state is saying about the proceeds of the household charge.

I wonder if you've thought this through?

For example, how many people work in Dublin, who return to their home Counties at the weekend?
These people contribute to the economy, both in Dublin, and their home Counties.
Their taxes are paid, and are distributed by the exchequer.

A system such as you propose would ensure that Dublin would get a very large proportion of the available tax take, to the detriment of every other County.
Do you really think that the 75% of people who live outside of Dublin would vote in any Government who proposed such a system?
Do you think people would accept, in many cases, a low level of services for their spouses/partners/children/parents, who do not live in Dublin, but are dependent on a decent level of services, which their family members taxes contribute to?

Whatever happened to the state cherishing all its citizens equally?
What you propose is blatantly discriminatory - just as what this poor man is suffering is as a result of blatant discrimination........

murphaph

View wrote: »

Unless you qualify as a "Cross Border Worker", you will not be an Irish tax resident for very long after you leave as you will usually be tax resident wherever you move to fairly quickly.

You will however still be liable, should you be a home owner in Ireland, for the Household charge and also the higher Non-Principal Primary Residence tax - so you will be taxed but have no say in the representation that decides to levy those taxes on you and spend the resulting monies.

This sums my position up. Cannot be tax resident in Ireland (would love to be-I'd pay lower taxes than here in Germany) but I do pay the household charge, NPPR, PRTB, insurance levy (my house insurance) and last by by no means least: INCOME TAX on the rental income itself, with LOWER TAX CREDITS (no PAYE credit available to me) than a person who is tax resident there.

I STILL HAVE NO VOTE IN IRELAND, yet someone who has never worked a day in their lives to contribute to my country and sits at home watching Jeremy Kyle all day is considered more worthy of political representation in the Dail than I.

A Dub in Glasgo

So you are an absentee landlord

I have given up on the emigrant voting argusment. Anyhow, the treatment of this patient is nothing short of scandalous. The HSE should be hanging their heads in shame to choose this course of action over cutting the fat

Tipp Man

murphaph wrote: »

This sums my position up. Cannot be tax resident in Ireland (would love to be-I'd pay lower taxes than here in Germany) but I do pay the household charge, NPPR, PRTB, insurance levy (my house insurance) and last by by no means least: INCOME TAX on the rental income itself, with LOWER TAX CREDITS (no PAYE credit available to me) than a person who is tax resident there.

I STILL HAVE NO VOTE IN IRELAND, yet someone who has never worked a day in their lives to contribute to my country and sits at home watching Jeremy Kyle all day is considered more worthy of political representation in the Dail than I.

So what?? People pay taxes worldwide nowadays as their investment portfolios become much more diversified and cover a much larger geographical area. That's why we have double tax agreements.

Should people get to vote in every country they own a house or investment in?

pog it

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

You'll get the exact same emotional arguments about any of the above.

1. If you cut children's allowance, won't somebody please think of the children etc.

2. If you cut welfare what about the most poor and vulernable.

3. If you cut public sector pay they're probably not going to do the work anyway, and as I have set out above in a fair bit of detail, this will not help this particular man, and could actually make matters worse for him.

4. Which pensions?

5. 3rd rate of tax? Presumably at the top end? The problem with this is that eventually you could have 90-100% tax at the top end to pay for all sorts of great medical, educational and welfare entitlements for people at the other end, becuase "People should not be left in pain" or people should not be left uneducated, or people should not get welfare entitlements.

Put another way, my foot has been a bit sore for the last few weeks. Probably sprained a muscle. In the real world, I limped along, got a bit of cream for it and considered insoles for my shoes and now its pretty much fine. However, in your world I should have been rushed to hospital, given hourly massages, physio, painkillers, the works, new shoes, someone to cover me in work (so I don't lose out on earnings), a wheelchair to rock around in and free taxis for long distance all because "People should not be left in pain". Now, my foot pain is not as serious as the pain caused by cancer, but if we are dealing with absolutes then this is the logical conclusion of what you are saying.

A little realism is required when you are debating health services. People should be given a reasonable level of pain relief if available is a more appropriate method of dealing with it.

As much sympathy as I have for someone in his situation, when dealing with the politics of it we have to be more detached.

PS jobs must be cut. There are 428,000 people working in the PS. I know of one guy who works in a county council in the environmental dept on 60k + a year, this guy goes to work at 10am and is home by 4.30pm, with hour for lunch, and breaks. Routinely, him and his colleagues, skimp off on a Friday for a fishing excursion, with rights to the river thanks to another colleague in same dept who pushed him ahead of the queue for fishing licence for fishing rights there. This guy has a basic degree and no further qualifications, he gets expenses for phone and travel, and this widely out of touch pay for what he does, and he feels smug and successful at the same time. This is endemic in the public sector and really it is up to people in the private sector to start shouting that it's no longer acceptable.

maninasia

Tippman now seems to think paying tax is not so important, it seems he has had a change of heart.

Tipp Man

maninasia wrote: »

Tippman now seems to think paying tax is not so important, it seems he has had a change of heart.

Look i pay tax in the UK, I don't expect to have a vote there because i am not living there and i am NOT a tax resident either

Despite Muraph, or anybody else for that matter, paying some tax in Ireland he (or anybody in a similar situation) is also NOT an Irish tax resident (based on the little info that is on here)

So you can pay tax and not be a tax resident

creedp

pog it wrote: »

PS jobs must be cut. There are 428,000 people working in the PS. I know of one guy who works in a county council in the environmental dept on 60k + a year, this guy goes to work at 10am and is home by 4.30pm, with hour for lunch, and breaks. Routinely, him and his colleagues, skimp off on a Friday for a fishing excursion, with rights to the river thanks to another colleague in same dept who pushed him ahead of the queue for fishing licence for fishing rights there. This guy has a basic degree and no further qualifications, he gets expenses for phone and travel, and this widely out of touch pay for what he does, and he feels smug and successful at the same time. This is endemic in the public sector and really it is up to people in the private sector to start shouting that it's no longer acceptable.

So what you are saying is that a large proportion if not all the PS are like this and its up to the private sector to sort it out by baying for pay cuts for all. i ahd a builder in recently who couldn'yt cost a job and so went bust - so obviously all builders are financially incompetent; despite many attempts I can't get my bank to update my details - so all banking staff are administratively incompetent; my mechanic made a hash of a job recently - so all mechanics are incompetent; my next dor neighbour has a 12 plate Audi A6 and an 11 plate ix35 - so undoubtedly all private sector workers are loaded ..........

n97 mini

creedp wrote: »

i ahd a builder in recently who couldn'yt cost a job and so went bust - so obviously all builders are financially incompetent; despite many attempts I can't get my bank to update my details - so all banking staff are administratively incompetent; my mechanic made a hash of a job recently - so all mechanics are incompetent;

You can shop around and decide who to pay, so the analogy doesn't quite fit as you can't decide you're not paying certain public servants. You have to pay them all.

murphaph

Tipp Man wrote: »

So what?? People pay taxes worldwide nowadays as their investment portfolios become much more diversified and cover a much larger geographical area. That's why we have double tax agreements.

Should people get to vote in every country they own a house or investment in?

No, but they should get to vote in the country of which they are a citizen. What are you afraid of? Are you afraid that your fellow Irish citizens (likely with family in Ireland) would vote some lizard people in to rule over you? (Lizard people would have done a better job than the FF led governments which were elected EXCLUSIVELY by citizens resident in Ireland (save for civil servants, army and Garda personnel).

What are your thoughts on people going on holidays to Spain for 2 weeks during an election? Do you feel it's also fair that they lose their vote?

murphaph

Tipp Man wrote: »

Look i pay tax in the UK, I don't expect to have a vote there because i am not living there and i am NOT a tax resident either

Despite Muraph, or anybody else for that matter, paying some tax in Ireland he (or anybody in a similar situation) is also NOT an Irish tax resident (based on the little info that is on here)

So you can pay tax and not be a tax resident

But I actually pay some income tax and I'm an Irish citizen. I pay more income tax than hundreds of thousands of tax resident Irish adults do. What use is tax residency of people who pay no tax to Ireland?

You talk about tax residency being important for voting rights, but I can be tax resident and pay absolutely no tax or be non-resident and pay thousands. It strikes me as unfair that the latter should be denied a vote, but be expected to pay income taxes regardless.

Tipp Man

murphaph wrote: »

No, but they should get to vote in the country of which they are a citizen. What are you afraid of? Are you afraid that your fellow Irish citizens (likely with family in Ireland) would vote some lizard people in to rule over you? (Lizard people would have done a better job than the FF led governments which were elected EXCLUSIVELY by citizens resident in Ireland (save for civil servants, army and Garda personnel).

What are your thoughts on people going on holidays to Spain for 2 weeks during an election? Do you feel it's also fair that they lose their vote?

Of course no vote for anybody who goes on a 2 week holiday - especially Spain

I'm not afraid of anything - I just think that it is wrong that people can vote for a person/party/government and not have to face the consequences of that vote - as i have already said.

Brussels Sprout

Tipp Man wrote: »

Of course no vote for anybody who goes on a 2 week holiday - especially Spain

I'm not afraid of anything - I just think that it is wrong that people can vote for a person/party/government and not have to face the consequences of that vote - as i have already said.

In May 2010 I voted in the UK general election as I was resident there at the time. However, at the time of going to the polls I knew I would be leaving the country for good and returning to Ireland a few months afterwards. Do you think it was wrong of me to cast my ballot in that election?

A Dub in Glasgo

or someone who is resident in Ireland and eligible to vote and then emigrates the soon after

murphaph

Tipp Man wrote: »

Of course no vote for anybody who goes on a 2 week holiday - especially Spain

I'm not afraid of anything - I just think that it is wrong that people can vote for a person/party/government and not have to face the consequences of that vote - as i have already said.

Do you think the Irish have been electing good governments for the past few years?

woodoo

Noreen1 wrote: »

The treatment available locally is obviously inadequate - otherwise he would not have received treatment in Dublin.
Hence, you are being deliberately obtuse.
No-one, suffering chronic pain, will choose the discomfort, inconvenience, and expense of travelling to Dublin if there is an adequate treatment available locally.




I wonder if you've thought this through?

For example, how many people work in Dublin, who return to their home Counties at the weekend?
These people contribute to the economy, both in Dublin, and their home Counties.
Their taxes are paid, and are distributed by the exchequer.

A system such as you propose would ensure that Dublin would get a very large proportion of the available tax take, to the detriment of every other County.
Do you really think that the 75% of people who live outside of Dublin would vote in any Government who proposed such a system?
Do you think people would accept, in many cases, a low level of services for their spouses/partners/children/parents, who do not live in Dublin, but are dependent on a decent level of services, which their family members taxes contribute to?

Whatever happened to the state cherishing all its citizens equally?
What you propose is blatantly discriminatory - just as what this poor man is suffering is as a result of blatant discrimination........

Dead right. And such a system would be easy to have voted down. The case would be made that Dublin would get the best services in the country under this system. Considering they they are less that a third of the population it would be defeated.

Tipp Man

murphaph wrote: »

Do you think the Irish have been electing good governments for the past few years?

I don't think that is at all linked to the debate regarding votes for emigrants

but your question doesn't need answering when you at the mess we're in

murphaph

Tipp Man wrote: »

I don't think that is at all linked to the debate regarding votes for emigrants

but your question doesn't need answering when you at the mess we're in

Of course it's linked. You linked it! You claim that Irish residents shouldn't have to live under a bad government elected by non-resident Irish citizens, but the current status quo has not prevented bad governments from being elected.

Perhaps it's time to try something else.

Tipp Man

murphaph wrote: »

Of course it's linked. You linked it! You claim that Irish residents shouldn't have to live under a bad government elected by non-resident Irish citizens, but the current status quo has not prevented bad governments from being elected.

Perhaps it's time to try something else.

Wow talk about putting words in my mouth

I have never for 1 second said that if non residents were allowed vote we would have a bad, or good for that matter, government. I gave examples of how voting for a party whose policies when in governemnt have zero effect on you is not right

Its easy have a say when you don't have to bear the consequences

pog it

creedp wrote: »

So what you are saying is that a large proportion if not all the PS are like this and its up to the private sector to sort it out by baying for pay cuts for all. i ahd a builder in recently who couldn'yt cost a job and so went bust - so obviously all builders are financially incompetent; despite many attempts I can't get my bank to update my details - so all banking staff are administratively incompetent; my mechanic made a hash of a job recently - so all mechanics are incompetent; my next dor neighbour has a 12 plate Audi A6 and an 11 plate ix35 - so undoubtedly all private sector workers are loaded ..........

Boy did you miss the point. Did I really have to preface this by saying that not ALL public sector employees get it this good? That, by now, should go without saying, so please get off your high horse.

My point is that if there is this one guy, there are more of them on this same level of pay and higher, enjoying short working days, over the top pay, perks and security, etc. All this for a basic enough job in the dept and on a basic degree that you could do with about 300 points in the Leaving at the time. I'm highlighting this because it is the one crazy case that I know of and there are bound to me more like him, happy to suck the living daylights out of the rest of us. And i'll say, again, just for you, just to be clear, of course, not all the people in the public sector enjoy these salaries and ease of life. happy?

woodoo

pog it wrote: »

Boy did you miss the point. Did I really have to preface this by saying that not ALL public sector employees get it this good? That, by now, should go without saying, so please get off your high horse.

My point is that if there is this one guy, there are more of them on this same level of pay and higher, enjoying short working days, over the top pay, perks and security, etc. All this for a basic enough job in the dept and on a basic degree that you could do with about 300 points in the Leaving at the time. I'm highlighting this because it is the one crazy case that I know of and there are bound to me more like him, happy to suck the living daylights out of the rest of us. And i'll say, again, just for you, just to be clear, of course, not all the people in the public sector enjoy these salaries and ease of life. happy?

There is no doubt there is some serious cleaning up to be done in the PS.

mikemac1

Last four pages all about emigrants who want the vote

How did this thread get hijacked

creedp

pog it wrote: »

Boy did you miss the point. Did I really have to preface this by saying that not ALL public sector employees get it this good? That, by now, should go without saying, so please get off your high horse.

My point is that if there is this one guy, there are more of them on this same level of pay and higher, enjoying short working days, over the top pay, perks and security, etc. All this for a basic enough job in the dept and on a basic degree that you could do with about 300 points in the Leaving at the time. I'm highlighting this because it is the one crazy case that I know of and there are bound to me more like him, happy to suck the living daylights out of the rest of us. And i'll say, again, just for you, just to be clear, of course, not all the people in the public sector enjoy these salaries and ease of life. happy?

Well if you read the Sunday Indo on a regular basis then sometimes comments such as yours need to be prefaced. I listen to a lot of crap from people who make such sweeping generalisations based on the 'fact' they read in that bastion of Irish journalism. Also you may consider that I missed your point but I consider that you also missed mine. You come from a private sector background arguing that if the public sector was fixed then the economy would be fine. I am simply making the point that that there are also poor performers in the private sector but I have yet to see the same tarring of these sectors. For e.g where are the mass protests that banking staff should take significant pay cuts and lose their golf and gym membership benefits becasue of the bankrupt banks? (By the way I am not calling for this but simply using it as an example) Banks are broke and are only surviving becasue of EU/IMF/ECB funding ... yet banks will not cut pay and conditions. Why is there not a more focused campaign against the semi-state companies. the ESB have continued to pay increases during this recession on the basis that they are a 'profitable' company just like happens in the private sector. Why have the ESB been asked to contribute some more of this 'profit' to the State? At least the public sector, i.e. those protected by Croke Park have taken a 12 - 15% pay cut. Many feel that this is not enough but let the discussion continue ...

pog it

creedp wrote: »

You come from a private sector background arguing that if the public sector was fixed then the economy would be fine. I am simply making the point that that there are also poor performers in the private sector but I have yet to see the same tarring of these sectors. .

the fundamental difference is that in the private sector you don't enjoy security of job for life, nor do you enjoy 60k+ salary for basic enough job with just an ordinary degree behind you, you tend to get paid commensurate to the value you bring to the bottomline. You don't get to head off on a fishing trip with your friends in the business unless you have organised a day off with your manager and boss.

Also, nowhere did I say that if the public sector was fixed the economy would be fine. Where did you get that out of? By bent of sheer fairness and to bring these people back down to earth they need to get their salaries and perks cut and learn to realise how the private sector and those not on inflated salaries in the public sector live. The more people aware of reality the better. At the moment the public sector and the trade unions are taking us all for a ride. It's no longer acceptable when you have intelligent talented and qualified people leaving the country for jobs, and these idiots sitting on their holes on massive salaries and thinking that they are successful and better than those who are emigrating. Trust me, I have seen this attitude with my own two eyes, Thank christ I am built a different way and like to get on in life on my own steam.

Brussels Sprout

creedp wrote: »

Well if you read the Sunday Indo on a regular basis ............ Why is there not a more focused campaign against the semi-state companies. the ESB have continued to pay increases during this recession on the basis that they are a 'profitable' company just like happens in the private sector.......

The Independent's daily edition is always criticising the ESB. Here's an editorial from last year: Derailing the ESB Gravy Train

creedp wrote: »

For e.g where are the mass protests that banking staff should take significant pay cuts and lose their golf and gym membership benefits becasue of the bankrupt banks?

Where were the mass protests against public sector workers?

View

Tipp Man wrote: »

Of course no vote for anybody who goes on a 2 week holiday - especially Spain

Why not? You don't lose residency by being abroad for 2 weeks whether on business or pleasure.

Tipp Man wrote: »

I'm not afraid of anything - I just think that it is wrong that people can vote for a person/party/government and not have to face the consequences of that vote - as i have already said.

But people DO have to face many of the consequences of that vote without having any say in it. For instance, the NPPR tax applies to non-residents even though the non-residents may be forced to be non-resident property owners due to the fact they can't sell due to the collapse in property prices and/or having to work abroad due to the economic collapse at home.

View

Noreen1 wrote: »

The treatment available locally is obviously inadequate - otherwise he would not have received treatment in Dublin.
Hence, you are being deliberately obtuse.
No-one, suffering chronic pain, will choose the discomfort, inconvenience, and expense of travelling to Dublin if there is an adequate treatment available locally.




I wonder if you've thought this through?

For example, how many people work in Dublin, who return to their home Counties at the weekend?
These people contribute to the economy, both in Dublin, and their home Counties.
Their taxes are paid, and are distributed by the exchequer.

A system such as you propose would ensure that Dublin would get a very large proportion of the available tax take, to the detriment of every other County.
Do you really think that the 75% of people who live outside of Dublin would vote in any Government who proposed such a system?
Do you think people would accept, in many cases, a low level of services for their spouses/partners/children/parents, who do not live in Dublin, but are dependent on a decent level of services, which their family members taxes contribute to?

Whatever happened to the state cherishing all its citizens equally?
What you propose is blatantly discriminatory - just as what this poor man is suffering is as a result of blatant discrimination........

You do realise that under the current system the relevant Minister can decide to fund projects in his own and/or electorally important colleagues constituencies even if they are less justiable than those in another person's constituency?

Under the system mentioned by the previous poster, such funding decisions depend largely on locals organizing themselves to do things (with central government usually operating a "top-up" scheme to deal with regional income disparities).

As it is, it should be pointed out our highly-centralised state overwhelmingly spends its monies in the Dublin area - new bodies set up by the state are typically located within a half kilometer or so of St. Stephen's Green...

murphaph

View wrote: »

But people DO have to face many of the consequences of that vote without having any say in it. For instance, the NPPR tax applies to non-residents even though the non-residents may be forced to be non-resident property owners due to the fact they can't sell due to the collapse in property prices and/or having to work abroad due to the economic collapse at home.

Indeed. I am governed by the same income tax laws as tipp man, I just don't get to vote on the government that implements them. How unfair is that?!