Would an Ulster win at Thomond prove Kidney wrong?

Podge_irl

People are taking the quote entirely the wrong way. He is more saying that Munster players were winning tight calls as they had experience of winning tight games and making semis and finals and that it was necessary for Ulster players to show they could do the same to get on top of 50/50 calls.

Not that outrageous really.

dougieruggie

Thats his defence Podge to ensure he doesnt get repermanded. He definitely intented to raise questions about Kidney's selection policies though.

shuffol

CiaranMT wrote: »

They're not all robots either, they're entitled to their own opinions.

Maybe I've taken it up wrong but players cant openly accuse the national coach of bias in his selections. I agree with what he said but IMO its not something Kidney can ignore and it does put him in a difficult situation. I didnt read the whole article so maybe I've misinterpreted what Best was saying.

Podge_irl

dougieruggie wrote: »

Thats his defence Podge to ensure he doesnt get repermanded. He definitely intented to raise questions about Kidney's selection policies though.

I don't doubt that that may have been his motivation (and I would certainly agree with him if it was), but its impossible for any of us to know for sure.

Beery Eyed

Amazing how people can misread a quote and hang someone for it.

He lays down a challenge to any of his team mates who may have a chip on their shoulder about being overlooked and says out that if they want to be selected for higher honours then winning knockout games in the HC is the way to prove your point.

He's got his Ulster cap on now, and as one of the leaders of that team coming in to the business end of the season these are the type of things he should be saying to get their mentality right.

mr_edge_to_you

Either ways the same team that lost to England with exception of Bod and Poc will start the first test in NZ. Unfortunately.

Hagz

Might as well put context to the quote now that I have it in front of me.

It's a build up to the Munster v Ulster match

'Ulster feel like they have a cause, not just as a group, but as individuals - especially the likes of Darren Cave and Chris Henry, players who have had a brief taste of test rugby and feel hungry for more.

Best - "Those guys are playing the best rugby of their careers and haven't' got the recognition they deserve,' 'But we can sit and complain about Munster players getting the nod or ask why they win those tight calls. Maybe it's because year on year, they've played at the business end of the Heineken Cup. Now it's time for us to step up to the top level"

whysomoody

Hagz wrote: »

Might as well put context to the quote now that I have it in front of me.

It's a build up to the Munster v Ulster match

'Ulster feel like they have a cause, not just as a group, but as individuals - especially the likes of Darren Cave and Chris Henry, players who have had a brief taste of test rugby and feel hungry for more.

Best - "Those guys are playing the best rugby of their careers and haven't' got the recognition they deserve,' 'But we can sit and complain about Munster players getting the nod or ask why they win those tight calls. Maybe it's because year on year, they've played at the business end of the Heineken Cup. Now it's time for us to step up to the top level"

The power of a full quote!

phog

dougieruggie wrote: »

Thats his defence Podge to ensure he doesnt get repermanded. He definitely intented to raise questions about Kidney's selection policies though.

and you know that because....................................???

totallegend

mr_edge_to_you wrote: »

Either ways the same team that lost to England with exception of Bod and Poc will start the first test in NZ. Unfortunately.

But they'll be itching to right the wrongs of Twickenham, so it's grand.

Neil3030

Sure not only will Dekkie not budge with his selections, he is probably delighted that he has the perfect pre-game speech for NZ:

Kidney: <at DOC, POM, Murray, Earls, and ROG> "THESE ****ERS FROM ULSTER DON'T RATE YOU, THEY THINK THEY SHOULD BE IN THE TEAM AHEAD OF YOU, THEY THINK THEY'RE IN BETTER FORM, THEY THINK THEY'RE BETTER PLAYERS, THEY THINK THEY HAD A MORE SUCCESSFUL SEASON IN EUROPE, THEY THINK THEY DESERVE A CRACK AT TEST RUGBY, ARE WE GOING TO LET THEM AWAY WITH IT?! ARE WE GOING TO LET THESE ****ERS WALK ALL OVER US?!!?

Silence in the dressing room....

Kidney: <at Ferris and Best> "Have a good game, lads..."

matthew8

One player that massively impressed me was Chris Henry. Really put his hand up for selection, despite the card.

bilston

I suppose yesterday's result will pose some interesting questons for Deccie.

Just from an Ulster point of view Court, Best, Ferris and Trimble are certs for NZ. Tuohy should be and Henry and Cave would both be in my touring squad but maybe not everybody elses. With Bowe likely to miss the tour there is potentially a spot for a young winger and Gilroy will have done his chances no harm whatsoever yesterday with a try that will be remembered forever by Ulster fans and I dare say ranks pretty highly on the list of HEC knockout rugby tries.

In saying that you can make decent arguments for other players that might prevent Henry, Cave and Gilroy being picked. It would IMO be an absolute travesty if Tuohy is overlooked again though.

It wasn't just Ulster players who put their hands up yesterday, Mike Sherry was superb for Munster. I hope he makes it to NZ along with Best and Cronin.

Eoin

Why must an in-form player keep being linked with being the captain? Why not just let them do what they do best and let the people who know the squad pick who is the best leader...

padraig.od

Just because it hasn't been mentioned yet Cave was injured for the entire 6N.

JustinDee

shuffol wrote: »

Holy f*ck I cant believe he said that. Surely there'll be reprecussions, he's just openly accused the national coach of bias towards his home province. Certainly shows that the players dont trust Kidneys judgement.

Get the full transcript then apply some context and you'll see that the above is not the case.

rrpc

JustinDee wrote: »

Get the full transcript then apply some context and you'll see that the above is not the case.

I think you'll find that's already been established further on in the thread.

Madworld

JustinDee wrote: »

Get the full transcript then apply some context and you'll see that the above is not the case.

Out of interest do you genuinely believe that Declan Kidney doesn't have a Munster bias?

JustinDee

Madworld wrote: »

Out of interest do you genuinely believe that Declan Kidney doesn't have a Munster bias?

Yes, I believe that and I also know that selection does not come down to one person, but a number of selectors in the management.

skregs

I would think a dire world cup, our lowest ever ranking, players openly criticising him, piss poor performances from the national team and a horrible horrible win/loss percentage would all prove Declan Kidney wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The man clearly doesn't care however.

thomond2006

JustinDee wrote: »

Yes, I believe that and I also know that selection does not come down to one person, but a number of selectors in the management.

who all answer to Kidney

jacothelad

liammur wrote: »

My bet are Clermont, they have the most class. Ulster are lucky toulouse are gone, but Edinburgh are more than capable of doing a job on them.

I thought the ref practically handed the game to Ulster, but if munster were still playing, would they get a try?

Are you basing your support that Edinburgh are a better side than Ulster on any evidence other than the bitter taste of sour grapes.

Jan 6 2012. Murrayfield. Edinburgh 20 - Ulster 42.
Mar 2 2012 Ravenhill. Ulster 38 - Edinburgh 16.

ambid wrote: »

I was thinking POM as a captaincy option only in the very long term, not this year or next.

Why should POM be captain? On what basis? He seems to me to be a good prospect but he is certainly benefitting from the same hype machine that has saddled Ireland with the turgid Murray at 9.

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

Are you basing your support that Edinburgh are a better side than Ulster on any evidence other than the bitter taste of sour grapes.

Jan 6 2012. Murrayfield. Edinburgh 20 - Ulster 42.
Mar 2 2012 Ravenhill. Ulster 38 - Edinburgh 16.

Not sure their rabbo form is indicative of their Hcup form. They are 2nd last in the league winning only 5 games so far.

Why should POM be captain? On what basis? He seems to me to be a good prospect but he is certainly benefitting from the same hype machine that has saddled Ireland with the turgid Murray at 9.

POM has shown form all the way up - captaining every team he has played for. He is still very young at 22.

Credit where credit is due, both those very young players were up against two world class players in Ferris & Pienaar. Pity Marshall didn't get his usual 20 minutes to show his stuff yesterday.

danthefan

This SH up against another SH is utter nonsense. It's not the opposition scrum half that makes Murray take an age to move the ball or put in a poor box kick.

jm08

danthefan wrote: »

This SH up against another SH is utter nonsense. It's not the opposition scrum half that makes Murray take an age to move the ball or put in a poor box kick.

I agree with you. What I meant to convey is that the job they were doing wasn't as good a job as Ferris and Pienaar (Pinaar was doing a better job than murray digging the ball out quicker (and he was getting quicker ball from a backrow that had Ferris), pienaar was taking better options than murray was, pienaar was kicking points from his own half, and murray wasnt). so you can slag off murray as much as you want, but that won't make pienaar ireland eligible. Dont know why pom is being slagged off as he isnt being selected before ferris for ireland.

i think you should also remember that murray got injured in the france game and hasn't played for a month.

tolosenc

jm08 wrote: »

i think you should also remember that murray got injured in the france game and hasn't played for a month.

He was woeful before the injury too, though. He is just a poor player who has a ton of hype about him because he's the first half decent player Munster have produced in yonks.

leftleg

jm08 wrote: »

i think you should also remember that murray got injured in the france game and hasn't played for a month.

Ferris IS injured; didnt seem to slow him down one bit though; Murray isn't any quicker getting the ball out of ruck's when fully match fit anyway;

Neil3030

tolosenc wrote: »

He was woeful before the injury too, though. He is just a poor player who has a ton of hype about him because he's the first half decent player Munster have produced in yonks.

Woeful is a bit harsh. Thought he was very good in Paris before he got hurt.

I think people need to give the young lad a break. He's only 22 and could well become a damn good scrum half as he builds on his experiences and decision making. It made me physically ill to see the pressure put on Sexton by certain factions of the Munster support when he was challenging ROG for the Ireland 10 shirt, and I am loathe to see the same thing happening again, only this time the other way round.

In other words, of the many, many, many things for which I want Kidney sacked, standing by Murray is not one of them.

Hagz

Yeh, it's getting ridiculous. Thinking about all the horrible selections Kidney will make for the NZ tour, Murray is the least of my worries.

rrpc

Neil3030 wrote: »

Woeful is a bit harsh. Thought he was very good in Paris before he got hurt.

I think people need to give the young lad a break. He's only 22 and could well become a damn good scrum half as he builds on his experiences and decision making. It made me physically ill to see the pressure put on Sexton by certain factions of the Munster support when he was challenging ROG for the Ireland 10 shirt, and I am loathe to see the same thing happening again, only this time the other way round.

In other words, of the many, many, many things for which I want Kidney sacked, standing by Murray is not one of them.

I agree. In assessing Murray, you can't ignore the players around him and especially his out-half partner. You couldn't get two more different out halfs than ROG and Sexton (unless it's ROG and Madigan ). ROG stands deep most of the time and doesn't demand or require quick ball or a fast tempo. Accurate ball, yes and Murray delivers this, but quick tempo is not necessary.

For some reason known only to himself, Kidney has partnered Sexton with slow scrum halfs for most of his Ireland career to date. If it wasn't TOL, then it was Murray and seemed to be Reddan on his wild days only. Murray on the other hand has not even had one day out with Keatley; who is much more of a gainline player, before partnerinig Sexton and the result is that Keatley is now not rated by Munster fans and Murray is falling out of favour. He will only speed up when his out half and the game plan demand it and currently that's just not happening.

Maybe it's conservatavism or maybe it's just the game plan, but when the only try scored by Munster on Sunday came from a defensive lapse by Ulster who got drawn in too tight, allowing a couple of cut out passes to get around them, you get the feeling that Munster will spend all day going through millions of phases before they ever score another try from their backs against decent defences.

All the other criticisms: backs not being inventive, forwards getting pushed off the ball, turnovers conceded etc. come back to the tempo of the game and the speed at the breakdown.