M7 - Naas/Newbridge Bypass Upgrade [Junction 9a now open]

Middle Man

Middle Man wrote: »

I know the M50 becomes congested at times and the driving is tough, but I'd have the current configuration anytime over the old one - at least it functions. The old setup was congested for much of the day (not just rush hour) and it didn't even work properly at the merge points - at times it was like going through a congested town in the bad old days with some resemblance to chaotic street parking. Even when congested, I find that the traffic moves a lot better now than it did during the economic bubble.

Speaking of congestion, we badly need that Dart Underground project and radial Dart extensions - if any of these are dropped, the EU will need to step in IMO. For too long, Irish politicians have always taken the easy way out...

I agree on Metro North, but most likely the geniuses will put it hold indefinitely.

The M50 might be better than it was but it's far from being good enough. That's a motorway that needs 6 lanes north and south.

The M50 today is what it should have been 20 years ago but they upgraded it to barely cope with today's volume of traffic.

Same will happen if the M7 N7 upgrade goes ahead, they'll upgrade so it just barely works now and not think about the future.

Who would sit in that traffic if there were a proper infrastructure ? Even if we had a proper rail network in Ireland you still wouldn't be able to get to the industrial areas.

Far to much emphasis is on roads, most likely Metro North will be scrapped for a "better" Bus service which will only add more filthy Diesel vehicles to our streets.

No rail to From the City to the Airport , have to travel by road.

Time and time again it's been proven that bigger roads will get congested.

The only real solution to Dublin's traffic is a proper underground network. And we can pay it back over the next 50+ years and create a lot of jobs in the process. Who would sit in Dublin traffic if you can travel underground in half the time ?

Carawaystick

Deedsie wrote: »

What about the M11? Why is there no toll on that?

Which m11?

Deedsie

Carawaystick wrote: »

Which m11?

From Donnybrook to Gorey. N11/M11 no toll at all to my knowledge. €3.80 a day might reduce traffic some bit?

Ah commuter tolls. The work tax, generally advocated by those living near public transport or their place of work

Deedsie

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah commuter tolls. The work tax, generally advocated by those living near public transport or their place of work

I cycle 10km in and out of work. I am just advocating fairness. Why is there a toll on the North of the M50 but not the south? Why are there tolls on the M7/M8, M6, M1, N20 but not the M9 & M11/N11.

No, you said it as a congestion measure.
Does anyone think that people of Naas/Newbridge/Sallins/Kildare will be able to not go to work, if the road is tolled?
I'll let you all in on a secret, they don't actually want to go to Dublin but thanks to our over centralised system that's where the work is.

PS. A ten km cycle to work shows exactly what I mean above. You don't have to use a toll

_Kaiser_

Just a point based on personal experience of the N/M7, but you could make this stretch 5 lanes wide on each side and you'd still get all the idiots lumped into the far right lane between exit 9 and 11 with someone dawdling along at 20-40 km/h less than the 120 at the head of the line for no good reason. Then the entire thing comes to a panic stop as they dive for the M9 exit (which admittedly should have a long separate exit lane like for example the M50 between J7/N4 and J9/N7)

2 lanes would actually probably be fine though IF you enforced lane discipline.

Bingo.
Same goes at J9 on n7 jus before M7.

They've repeated the mistake at the M7/M8 separator

Cops only worried about speed though.

Carawaystick

Deedsie wrote: »

From Donnybrook to Gorey. N11/M11 no toll at all to my knowledge. €3.80 a day might reduce traffic some bit?

Where would you build a turnpike that would reduce traffic? At the M11/M50 junction? At Kilmacanogue? Because there's very little place elsewhere to build one that couldn't easily be avoided and the traffic is mostly dissipated in the northern section of the route.

L1011

Deedsie wrote: »

I cycle 10km in and out of work. I am just advocating fairness. Why is there a toll on the North of the M50 but not the south? Why are there tolls on the M7/M8, M6, M1, N20 but not the M9 & M11/N11.

Again - there is no "fairness" argument. At all.

gilly0512

The M50 should be a lesson to the world in how not to build a motorway, spend years and a small fortune building a relatively small and simple motorway by international standards, stick a hated toll on it, and then spend an even bigger fortune digging it up again to add in an extra lane, and build proper junctions. It took us years to get a proper motorway network in this country, and while I can live per se with tolls on new motorways such as the M1, M6 and M8, tolls should not be allowed on pre-existing motorways such as the M7. It also could be easily argued that we pay a small fortune in road tax in this country, so any motorways that we finally got, we were owed several times over anyway. Our public transport is also awful, so if the government aren't prepared to put money into a proper public transport system, then they have to put more money into road infrastructure and projects such as widening the M7 from Naas to Junction 11, bypassing Galway City, and most controversially of all another orbital route outside the M50, as the M50 is already clearly at maximum capacity.

Deedsie

L1011 wrote: »

Again - there is no "fairness" argument. At all.

Why not? The wealthiest area of the country can avoid paying tolls quite easily. I live in this area. It's not a fair system. This area also has alternative transport options, DART, LUAS, Dublin Bus, Wexford bus yet still thousands drive and block up the N11. When the kids are back in school next month it will be nuts. Not that the school run would have anything to do with a toll but it does contribute massively to congestion.

L1011

Deedsie wrote: »

Why not? The wealthiest area of the country can avoid paying tolls quite easily. I live in this area. It's not a fair system. This area also has alternative transport options, DART, LUAS, Dublin Bus, Wexford bus yet still thousands drive and block up the N11. When the kids are back in school next month it will be nuts. Not that the school run would have anything to do with a toll but it does contribute massively to congestion.

Because the roads without tolls were paid for from the exchequer. The roads with tolls weren't.

That's it

There's nothing about "unfair" to come in to it.

And yet again, you're clearly looking for one as a congestion measure, not for any other reason.

Deedsie

L1011 wrote: »

Because the roads without tolls were paid for from the exchequer. The roads with tolls weren't.

That's it

There's nothing about "unfair" to come in to it.

And yet again, you're clearly looking for one as a congestion measure, not for any other reason.

What's so wrong with a congestion charge?

L1011

Deedsie wrote: »

What's so wrong with a congestion charge?

That's a completely different topic. If that's what you want to discuss, don't try hide it behind a baseless "its not fair!! waaah" argument.

The only congestion-connected toll in the country is the Port Tunnel, where car pricing has been adjusted numerous times related to traffic capacity. The rest are for funding the construction and maintenance of the tolled sections.

Which won't work as our public transport is abysmal and badly connected

Deedsie

Deleted User wrote: »

Which won't work as our public transport is abysmal and badly connected

Not in South Dublin/Wicklow/Wexford it's not? There is a very viable alternative for people to get into the city centre, D02 & D04. If people still want to drive and cause congestion let them pay for it. Luas, Dart, Irish Rail, Dublin bus, Wexford bus, bicycle.

Deedsie

L1011 wrote: »

That's a completely different topic. If that's what you want to discuss, don't try hide it behind a baseless "its not fair!! waaah" argument.

The only congestion-connected toll in the country is the Port Tunnel, where car pricing has been adjusted numerous times related to traffic capacity. The rest are for funding the construction and maintenance of the tolled sections.

Waaah indeed. It can be a two pronged argument sometimes. It is both unfair to toll some commuters and not others. It is also sensible at times to discourage commuters to drive by tolling a congested roadway which the N11/M11 is.

L1011

Deedsie wrote: »

It is both unfair to toll some commuters and not others.

No, it isn't. As explained repeatedly to you.

If you want to make an argument for a congestion charge, do that in its own place.

Deedsie

Deedsie wrote: »

Not in South Dublin/Wicklow/Wexford it's not? There is a very viable alternative for people to get into the city centre, D02 & D04. If people still want to drive and cause congestion let them pay for it. Luas, Dart, Irish Rail, Dublin bus, Wexford bus, bicycle.

Ok tell me how to get from Dundrum or Stepaside to Tallaght, Ballymount or Templeogue so.

Your argument seems city specific.

Deedsie

L1011 wrote: »

No, it isn't. As explained repeatedly to you.

If you want to make an argument for a congestion charge, do that in its own place.

I'll make my argument whatever way I wish. Who are you to decide how I can construct my argument? In my opinion it is unfair to toll some and not others and a congestion charge would be a good approach to reduce the problem. I'll be back here next week to discuss it further. See you next Tuesday.

Deedsie

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok tell me how to get from Dundrum or Stepaside to Tallaght, Ballymount or Templeogue so.

Your argument seems city specific.

Dundrum? Luas

dublin bus from the N11 goes to tallaght.

Never had reason to travel to ballymount or templeogue. I'm sure there are options from the city centre.

L1011

Deedsie wrote: »

See you next Tuesday.

Child

Deedsie

Deedsie wrote: »

Dundrum? Luas

dublin bus from the N11 goes to tallaght.

Never had reason to travel to ballymount or templeogue. I'm sure there are options from the city centre.

Luas is not complete and means 2 hours trip once done, by going through city. How do you propose getting to the bus at N11 at rush hour?

Deedsie

Deleted User wrote: »

Luas is not complete and means 2 hours trip once done, by going through city. How do you propose getting to the bus at N11 at rush hour?

We are discussing south City commuting here? I don't know your starting point. dart to pearse, stroll up to Stephens green Luas to Dundrum? Bit of a pain but better than sitting in traffic.

The 44 bus goes from Enniskerry right past Dundrum

We are actually discussing the M7 from J9 Naas north to J11 Kilkenny/Carlow and it needing widening.
And that tolling it would be insane and never counter traffic volumes

Carawaystick

Deedsie wrote: »

Not in South Dublin/Wicklow/Wexford it's not? There is a very viable alternative for people to get into the city centre, D02 & D04. If people still want to drive and cause congestion let them pay for it. Luas, Dart, Irish Rail, Dublin bus, Wexford bus, bicycle.

So, will you only toll people using the M11 who go to Dublin 1,2,4?
Or how will you deal with traffic using the M11 and then the M50, to you know, bypass Dublin city?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

We are actually discussing the M7 from J9 Naas north to J11 Kilkenny/Carlow and it needing widening.
And that tolling it would be insane and never counter traffic volumes

If you had the choice to pay a toll or sit in traffic, you'd choose to sit in traffic ?

Carawaystick

Deleted User wrote: »

If you had the choice to pay a toll or sit in traffic, you'd choose to sit in traffic ?

Or travel for free at a time when there was no traffic...

Deedsie

Carawaystick wrote: »

So, will you only toll people using the M11 who go to Dublin 1,2,4?
Or how will you deal with traffic using the M11 and then the M50, to you know, bypass Dublin city?

Should have added an etc after D04