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M7 - Naas/Newbridge Bypass Upgrade [Junction 9a now open]

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    #182
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There needs to be an emphasis on proper public infrastructure in this country at a cost that makes the car less attractive. Particularly in Dublin, the public transport network there is a disgrace.


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    #183
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Deleted User wrote: »
    How will they raise funding ?

    The exact same way every other road project is funded.


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    #184
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Deleted User wrote: »
    How will they raise funding ?

    How did the widening of the M1 get funded?


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    #185
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    How did the widening of the M1 get funded?

    No idea ?


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    #186
    Deedsie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Funding won't happen without a Toll.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    There needs to be an emphasis on proper public infrastructure in this country at a cost that makes the car less attractive. Particularly in Dublin, the public transport network there is a disgrace.

    They can't put another toll on the M7. That would be four tolls from Cork to Dublin airport.

    I agree completely on the second point but don't see what it has to do with this thread.


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    #187
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Three tolls on one route to the national airport is already insane FFS


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    #188
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Three tolls on one route to the national airport is already insane FFS

    Forgot about the tolls at the other end.


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    #189
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deedsie wrote: »
    They can't put another toll on the M7. That would be four tolls from Cork to Dublin airport.

    I agree completely on the second point but don't see what it has to do with this thread.

    The point being if there were less traffic there would be no need for an upgrade because the more the roads are upgraded the more people will be encouraged to drive and eventually you got congestion again. I guarantee if I had a bus to snooze on or a train after 12 hr shift I'd gladly take the public transport.


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    #190
    Deedsie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The point being if there were less traffic there would be no need for an upgrade because the more the roads are upgraded the more people will be encouraged to drive and eventually you got congestion again. I guarantee if I had a bus to snooze on or a train after 12 hr shift I'd gladly take the public transport.

    You are right, unfortunately in Ireland there is going to be no improvements on inter city public transport for a long long time. This road connects Waterford, Kilkenny, Limerick & Cork to Dublin. The road needs to be upgraded alongside any eventual public transport


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    #191
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,858 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    This one is an oddity because, from Dublin, you have the 3 lane Naas Road going into the 2 lane Naas bypass into (effectively) the 4 lane M7/9. Similarly, coming towards Dublin you have two 2 lane roads merging into one, then back out to 3 along the Naas road. This isn't about increasing traffic levels, its about removing a silly bottleneck.


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    #192
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ideally this part of the M7/N7 needs to be 4 lanes. Rather than build for today why not plan for the future ? the M50 should be 4- 5 lanes.


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    #193
    Deedsie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Ideally this part of the M7/N7 needs to be 4 lanes. Rather than build for today why not plan for the future ? the M50 should be 4- 5 lanes.

    In one page you have gone from opposing a vital road infrastructure upgrade to advocating the expansion of Dublins outer ring road. Dublin City should definitely focus on a huge investment in public transport. Metro North etc


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    #194
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Deedsie wrote: »
    In one page you have gone from opposing a vital road infrastructure upgrade to advocating the expansion of Dublins outer ring road. Dublin City should definitely focus on a huge investment in public transport. Metro North etc

    I did not oppose anything but I strongly feel bigger roads are not the answer.

    Expansion of the M50 isn't possible so you need a ring road now around the M50 this is what happens with the failure to provide a proper public transport system that Dublin desperately needs.

    Eventually all roads will get congested, so I'm neither for or against road upgrading, because I have to commute by car I've no choice the same as hundreds of thousands of other motorists. But I say this, after a 72 hr shift I do once a month + 12 hrs driving and coming off nights I'd give anything for a Bus or a train. But it would greatly add to my already long 15 hr days.


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    #195
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Eventually all roads will get congested,

    In what circumstances do you ever see the M9 between Kilkenny and Waterford being congested?

    There are two reasons to have tolls. It is important not to confuse them. One is to 'pay' for a project. The other is to manage congestion.

    Personally I have no problem with tolls being put on roads long after they are opened to reduce congestion. This happened in London with the congestion charge. I think a modest, barrier-free toll on the Naas road for peak-time use would do a lot to reduce congestion.

    On the costs, it is daft that there are no tolls to drive from Dublin to Waterford or Wexford but there are to the rest of the country. It is a fairly explicit and arbitrary transfer from one section of the population to another.


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    #196
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Bray Head wrote: »
    In what circumstances do you ever see the M9 between Kilkenny and Waterford being congested?

    There are two reasons to have tolls. It is important not to confuse them. One is to 'pay' for a project. The other is to manage congestion.

    Personally I have no problem with tolls being put on roads long after they are opened to reduce congestion. This happened in London with the congestion charge. I think a modest, barrier-free toll on the Naas road for peak-time use would do a lot to reduce congestion.

    On the costs, it is daft that there are no tolls to drive from Dublin to Waterford or Wexford but there are to the rest of the country. It is a fairly explicit and arbitrary transfer from one section of the population to another.


    How would it ease congestion there, to have a toll? Are people just going to have to give up going to work.

    Again, is it feasible to have 4 tolls between Cork/Kerry and Dublin airport?


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    #197
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Some of us just let the train take the strain and put up with the extra time it takes. With a taxsaver ticket the journey costs less than half what it would to take the car (Athlone to Dublin).

    Long distance commuting is a mugs game, but many of us simply don't have a choice.


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    #198
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Some of us just let the train take the strain and put up with the extra time it takes. With a taxsaver ticket the journey costs less than half what it would to take the car (Athlone to Dublin).

    Long distance commuting is a mugs game, but many of us simply don't have a choice.

    That's wonderful if you are within distance of a train station and work is anywhere near where you arrive


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    #199
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    they really need to hurry up with sorting out rail transport into dublin so that people can commute into the city viably from suburbs and further afield. By being able to walk or cycle to the train station or by having park and ride's...


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    #200
    Jayuu
    Registered Users Posts: 742 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    Bray Head wrote: »
    On the costs, it is daft that there are no tolls to drive from Dublin to Waterford or Wexford but there are to the rest of the country. It is a fairly explicit and arbitrary transfer from one section of the population to another.

    The same argument could be applied to the M50 which penalises people for using one section of the road as opposed to all of it.


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    #201
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Jayuu wrote: »
    The same argument could be applied to the M50 which penalises people for using one section of the road as opposed to all of it.

    Only one bit of the m50 was built under and bought out from a PPP deal of that kind. Tolling the rest for 'fairness' isn't a valid argument


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    #202
    Deedsie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    L1011 wrote: »
    Only one bit of the m50 was built under and bought out from a PPP deal of that kind. Tolling the rest for 'fairness' isn't a valid argument

    What about the M11? Why is there no toll on that?


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    #203
    Andru93
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭Andru93


    Deedsie wrote: »
    What about the M11? Why is there no toll on that?


    Tolls were put on several motorways to help pay back the cost of building then. For example M1, M50(Bridge), Port Tunnel, EastLink, M7 (Shannon), M24 all of these tolls were PPP for a big project such as a Bridge or Tunnel.

    Other example such as M3, M4, M7, M8 were all fund through PPP to incentivize private builder to fund part of the cost of the road in return be payed back over X number of years in the toll obtained.
    The M11 was all Public Money therefore no toll, and the same goes for the rest of the M50.


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    #204
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Deedsie wrote: »
    What about the M11? Why is there no toll on that?

    Because it wasn't built using a tolling PPP.


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    #205
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    And of course the Tolls are removed once builder is paid back yes??


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    #206
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Deleted User wrote: »
    And of course the Tolls are removed once builder is paid back yes??

    Removed after a set period of time whether they've made a profit or not. Its pretty inevitable that the Waterford Bypass won't make a profit, for instance.


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    #207
    JeffK88
    Registered Users Posts: 627 ✭✭✭JeffK88


    As with the M50 the tolls will just transfer to government control and there you have a nice little income maker under the guise of " Congestion reducing Tolling " . Once a toll always a toll


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    #208
    Deedsie
    Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    L1011 wrote: »
    Because it wasn't built using a tolling PPP.

    So why build the southern portion of the M50 and the M11 which serves the wealthiest regions of the country without a toll? And force Cork, Limerick, Tralee, Kilarney, Galway, Sligo & Ennis to pay toll after toll to get to Dublin airport?

    I don't even mind paying the toll just widen the M7 for all our sakes


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    #209
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The M7, N7 upgrade won't happen for many years. Money better spent on not needing to drive, just like the M50 upgrade is already proven not to work, still huge delays the volume of traffic is too large and it will mean another motorway will have to be built somewhere to relieve traffic going into Dublin altogether.

    Same with the M7/N9. Eventually it will get congested. We need 6 lanes on the M50 each way.

    Bigger roads have proven in Ireland not to work but Ireland's solution to an Irish problem has always been do it half assed and only do it so it will work for today (half work) and we'll deal with the future when it's too late. Just look at the M50 south, 2 lanes then they put another lane in. Ridiculous country.

    All the illegally bult (corrupt rezoning) housing and apartments along the M50 after Tallaght heading South and no proper rail system , joke !


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    #210
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,866 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Deedsie wrote: »
    So why build the southern portion of the M50 and the M11 which serves the wealthiest regions of the country without a toll? And force Cork, Limerick, Tralee, Kilarney, Galway, Sligo & Ennis to pay toll after toll to get to Dublin airport?

    I don't even mind paying the toll just widen the M7 for all our sakes

    Because none of the projects were viable to build as tolled.

    Theres no "fairness" argument to be made


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    #211
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The M7, N7 upgrade won't happen for many years. Money better spent on not needing to drive, just like the M50 upgrade is already proven not to work, still huge delays the volume of traffic is too large and it will mean another motorway will have to be built somewhere to relieve traffic going into Dublin altogether.

    Same with the M7/N9. Eventually it will get congested. We need 6 lanes on the M50 each way.

    Bigger roads have proven in Ireland not to work but Ireland's solution to an Irish problem has always been do it half assed and only do it so it will work for today (half work) and we'll deal with the future when it's too late. Just look at the M50 south, 2 lanes then they put another lane in. Ridiculous country.

    All the illegally bult (corrupt rezoning) housing and apartments along the M50 after Tallaght heading South and no proper rail system , joke !

    I know the M50 becomes congested at times and the driving is tough, but I'd have the current configuration anytime over the old one - at least it functions. The old setup was congested for much of the day (not just rush hour) and it didn't even work properly at the merge points - at times it was like going through a congested town in the bad old days with some resemblance to chaotic street parking. Even when congested, I find that the traffic moves a lot better now than it did during the economic bubble.

    Speaking of congestion, we badly need that Dart Underground project and radial Dart extensions - if any of these are dropped, the EU will need to step in IMO. For too long, Irish politicians have always taken the easy way out...


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