Extreme Combat Ireland Krav Maga: Carlow .... One Day Seminar

cowzerp

Naos wrote: »

Gonko, I'm not trying to be smart but I'm fairly certain that any MMAer knows how to eye gouge or give a nut shot - these are not moves only available to a KMer.

I would love to see Cowzer take one of them on. These lads were quite sloppy, couldn't throw a punch and wouldn't last a round with someone who trains regularly in MMA.

These lads are nuts, probably never been in a fight in their lives, before i ever done martial arts and just boxing i head kicked a lad who attacked me, i eye gouged some lad who was beating up my brother and got on top of me, I kneed a lad muay thai style before i knew what thai boxing was, point being all these attacks can and will be used in a fight regardless of training, my 1st day been showing kicks i was easily out kicking lads, why? becauise my range and footwork was better

point being any good mma fighter/boxer can eye gouge, knee the nuts etc, and they cant be drilled even though the walter mittys like to pretend their more experienced at it

FTA69

The whole Israel angle is what bemuses me like. I've been to Israel and Palestine and most Israeli soldiers I saw were 11 stone teenage conscripts who wouldn't knock snow off a rope. If the Israelis want you dead, they'll shoot you or blow up your car with an Apache or drop a Jericho missile on your house. They won't martial arts you to death.

gonko

cowzerp wrote: »

These lads are nuts, probably never been in a fight in their lives, before i ever done martial arts and just boxing i head kicked a lad who attacked me, i eye gouged some lad who was beating up my brother and got on top of me, I kneed a lad muay thai style before i knew what thai boxing was, point being all these attacks can and will be used in a fight regardless of training, my 1st day been showing kicks i was easily out kicking lads, why? becauise my range and footwork was better

point being any good mma fighter/boxer can eye gouge, knee the nuts etc, and they cant be drilled even though the walter mittys like to pretend their more experienced at it

Spot on, you done that stuff without training in it. Now imagine someone who trains for years, where these hits are embedded into their movement and defence when they do end up 'going into action'.....huge advantage. Or unless you think randomly throwing out these techniques is good enough, surely not.

FTA69

gonko wrote: »

Spot on, you done that stuff without training in it. Now imagine someone who trains for years, where these hits are embedded into their movement and defence when they do end up 'going into action'.....huge advantage. Or unless you think randomly throwing out these techniques is good enough, surely not.

You can't train eye strikes. When was the last time you poked someone in the eye in your gym?

CIARAN_BOYLE

gonko wrote: »

Spot on, you done that stuff without training in it. Now imagine someone who trains for years, where these hits are embedded into their movement and defence when they do end up 'going into action'.....huge advantage. Or unless you think randomly throwing out these techniques is good enough, surely not.

Except the hits aren't embedded into their movement, if its practiced and drilled its non contact or light contact and many will instinctally pull their strikes in a real situation because thats what they are used to from practice.

Plastikman_eire

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

many will instinctally pull their strikes in a real situation because thats what they are used to from practice.

I doubt most would even get that far.

Chances are that most KM'ers "opponents" while drilling are being fully compliant, so when attacked for real, my money is on the KM'er folding completely and not even attempting their super-secret-uber-mega-deathtouch.

Precious flower

The co-operating partners is serious pitfall in SOME Krav Maga classes. In other disciplines it's not so much of an issue because it's only really implemented when sparring with a new or relatively inexperienced individual, but with Krav Maga it's almost every move in some classes that are held. Without your partner putting up a fight how can you possibly know how much strength you'll actually require to hurt them, not to mention you know the attack is going to happen so you're totally prepared which puts you at a disadvantage when an attack comes out of nowhere and when you are least expecting it. I think it's especially dangerous to give women this kind of mindset. Also, any other martial art can easily do groin strikes, head butts or any other dirty techniques. Maybe they wouldn't know exactly how to defend themselves against a knife but unless you were going to be taken somewhere or raped, you'd just give over whatever you had. More than likely if it was a frenzied knife attack, even a well trained Krav Maga guy wouldn't fair a whole lot better than any other martial artist.

With headlocks and choking you see these elaborate moves and you're thinking ''You just said you had 3-5 seconds before you lose conciousness and your there trying to hit him in the maybe twice in the groin and elbow his face (all of which requires accuracy to do maximum damage not to mention strength which you are rapidly losing) and then remove yourself from the lock. I seriously doubt most of those would disable your attacker before you became unable to attack and lost consciousness. Would a judo throw not be better?

The 360 defence for a knife seems like a serious waste of time for me, if a person wants to stab you it'll be extremely quick and viscous not this psycho movie like stabbing. What's the point of training people like that? People will be completely unprepared when a person repeatedly tries to stab them in a matter of seconds. Another problem is the ''fighting 3 plus people defence'' the only reason that looks doable in Krav Maga videos is that they are coming at the person one at a time which is completely unrealistic. They'd all be coming for you at the same time in real life and your best hope would be legging it.

I think it's a great fitness class to go to but as for defence I would be wary of people getting to confident after doing just a seminar. Everyone knows in any other martial art it takes years to become proficient and I believe Krav Maga is the same and they should not be giving the impression that after one class you're even remotely capable of defending yourself better than before you walked in. I think those ladies defence classes are a money squeeze too. I don't mean to hate on Krav Maga I just think in some places you have to seriously question the effectiveness of the techniques.

Graemec

Hi
Having recently moved from SA and new to Boards ie I can only say that any Self Defence system, Martial Arts and MMA all have flaws so in my opinion when attacked and it will be at full force and very scary, survival (run away) is and will always be first prize.
I trained KM and I am in agreement with all, KM cannot be mastered over a day / weekend seminar you need at least six months training, depending also on how many hours a week you train.
Where I come from seminars were used to refine already honed skills or new specialized skills which would then be incorporated and practiced in normal classes.
Sparring should happen from day one and also to be with different partners: size, height, weight, strength and gender also when sparring never be a compliant attacker otherwise why bother.

mugger

Krav maga is hands down the biggest self defence/MA scam going,
its designed to get people with hardly any street fighting experience if any to sign up for a block of classes and for them to feel like they are ready for anything
it really pisses me off the amount of bull**** in self defence and MA,
On the Krav maga Facebook page its advertising a new course coming up which I'm sure you pay a lot of money up front and conveniently at the same time they get a email from a "past student" saying how he fought off 5 blokes in a club with his Girlfriend,are ye having a laugh
if you want to give loads of your money to scam artists and train with people who have never been in a real fight,then by all means,do Krav Maga.
if you want to get really fit and give yourself a better chance of winning a real fight then do something else

mugger

this is the email he said he got,i actually can't believe the neck of him
Hi Patrick.
Just a quick email to say thanks. Me and my girlfriend where leaving a night club on Saturday night at 3:00am. And was walking through the crowd and some man pushed into me and my girlfriend. I had her behind me like way to thought us class. I looked behind me and he was following me. Then I was struck from the side my another person. I went straight into shielding mode hands on my head
And trying to protect my other half at the same time. They couldn't hit me in the because I was landing elbows and knees there was 5 of them attacking me. They couldn't get me on the ground. I took blows to the back of the head, and the first blow made me dizzy but your training had me ready for that situation.
Just want to say thank you and the crew for drilling the moves into us. I haven't trained in all most a year and it all came like second nature to me.
Thanks Patrick. And I'll be back soon.
Regards
K

CB19Kevo

I think Krav maga has its place and depending on how often you train,The instructor and the students it can be effective.
I have done some training with united Krav Maga and they really dont bull**** anyone,Then again maybe the dynamic of the group was different as most trained in traditional martial arts or mma/boxing.

Mouthalmighty

mugger wrote: »

this is the email he said he got,i actually can't believe the neck of him
Hi Patrick.
Just a quick email to say thanks. Me and my girlfriend where leaving a night club on Saturday night at 3:00am. And was walking through the crowd and some man pushed into me and my girlfriend. I had her behind me like way to thought us class. I looked behind me and he was following me. Then I was struck from the side my another person. I went straight into shielding mode hands on my head
And trying to protect my other half at the same time. They couldn't hit me in the because I was landing elbows and knees there was 5 of them attacking me. They couldn't get me on the ground. I took blows to the back of the head, and the first blow made me dizzy but your training had me ready for that situation.
Just want to say thank you and the crew for drilling the moves into us. I haven't trained in all most a year and it all came like second nature to me.
Thanks Patrick. And I'll be back soon.
Regards
K

There is a word to describe a fight against 5 guys: an a$$ whoopin for the lad on his own!. What a crock of rubbish.That is a way to entice scared people into this crap!! Matt Thornton says it best:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le3IUKp0I_o

Graemec

I disagree that KM is the biggest scam, it is and will always be very effective in real situations (Survival).
I do however agree it will not be effective by attending a weekend seminar but has to be practiced and the training has to be hard and against a non compliant attacker while sparring.
As with any KM / MA always check out the training offered and how diluted is the system or has it been altered for "civilian use" this always blows me away as an attack is an attack and survival is first place.
The above email is rather funny compared to an attack in SA of one of our KM students. Attacked in his house by 2 armed criminals with his family in the house the attack lasted for a half an hour, he survived but went to hospital with multiple stab wounds and a gunshot wound to the cheek. He had been training for a year and stated that without his KM training he would not have survived.
My point is an attack is going to be fast at full speed and it is not going to be pretty so your training and muscle memory will be the deciding factor of your survival.

Peetrik

Graemec wrote: »

I disagree that KM is the biggest scam, it is and will always be very effective in real situations (Survival).

See the problem there Graemec is that you can't possibly know if KM as it's taught here is going to be effective. You've never trained here.

KM as it is taught in Ireland, in any example provided here, is pretty much as has been described above. Untested techniques taught in a compliant fashion, and blatantly falsely advertised as being far more effective than it could ever hope to be in the hopes of snaring the gullible.

Graemec wrote: »

I do however agree it will not be effective by attending a weekend seminar but has to be practiced and the training has to be hard and against a non compliant attacker while sparring.

Do you have any videos of you or your club sparring?

mugger

And out of interest how many of you think Soldiers anywhere in the world today get into regular unarmed to the death combat,especially against someone that is armed,not a lot i would think,if a soldier doesn't have his own gun on him he's dead,your all watching way to many movies and want to believe someone can teach you to do the same.
for every one story you hear ( fake or true ) of someone taking a knife or gun off someone that wanted to kill them,there are thousands of stories you don't hear when guess what the guy got shot or stabbed to death

Mouthalmighty

Thats the truth mugger. This is something of a touchy subject for me. Things like KM prey on peoples fear. Chances are there isn't a knife wielding scumbag around every corner. Secondly if someone wanted to attack you with a knife for no reason you wouldn't get a chance to bust out any MA moves, you'll be too busy bleeding. If attacked by a number of assailants running away is your best option, if you can't back to a wall and throw strikes and hope not to be taken down and your ability to absorb damage ( because lets face it one will get battered in this situation, it's a damage limitation exercise) and stay going is probably your best defence there. If you haven't experienced a hard blow in your training any MA technique will not save you as panic (fight or flight) will take over in most people when they take a hard puch to the face. A single assailant who knows what they are doing will attack from behind, i.e you won't know it's coming and any pre-prepared routine of crotch chops will fly straight out the window, again panic from the full force blow. What MA may save someone here is one with some level of full contact sparring where recovering from a blow to the head is somewhat part of/ result of training (MMA, MT, boxing would be in my opinion the most effective here but there are others i'm sure). The ability to regain composure is vital here, if a MA does not train for the level of violence and aggression it is pointless. A single muppet who has never been in a row in his life KM will probably work in reality but against someone who has seen a bit of rough and tumble, I don't know. Any KM and other self defence ( as opposed to MA) training I've seen has been ridiculous with certain routines and crap. Common sense is the best self defence, stay away from rough areas, don't walk down dark alleys by yourself etc.
Apologies for the rant and if I repeated myself.

Dave Joyce

And out of interest how many of you think Soldiers anywhere in the world today get into regular unarmed to the death combat,especially against someone that is armed,not a lot i would think,if a soldier doesn't have his own gun on him he's dead

Definately not a lot as you say but then it DOES happen both against armed and less frequently unarmed combatants. A lot of these occasions although carrying their primary, using it was not an option for whatever reason.

Things like KM prey on peoples fear

Yea but a lot of MA's do the exact same thing perhaps not as dramatically.

Secondly if someone wanted to attack you with a knife for no reason you wouldn't get a chance to bust out any MA moves

Really, why train ANY martial arts at all so and how can you categorically say that??

If attacked by a number of assailants running away is your best option

Absolutely BUT what if your partner is with you in high heels or you're with your kids, you gonna run off and leave them or do you just slug it out??

What MA may save someone here is one with some level of full contact sparring where recovering from a blow to the head is somewhat part of/ result of training (MMA, MT, boxing would be in my opinion the most effective here but there are others i'm sure). The ability to regain composure is vital here, if a MA does not train for the level of violence and aggression it is pointless

Again, I agree with you here, you gotta have an idea of what its like to be really hit, IS vital BUT the problem is the combat sports mind is when the going gets tough you slug it out for the best which while admirable isn't very intelligent. A lot of people who have described what they do for multiple opponent training, is very hard brave slugging it out but if even one of those guys is carrying a weapon, while slugging it out you won't even know you've been hit by the said weapon unless it knocks you out or if you see blood. Most people describe been stabbed as feeling like they'd been punched, HARD.

IMHO that argument is like a striker going into an MMA bout, with only have a sprawl defence, no ground game and no wrestling thinking that with a limited game like this will go well for him. It may do in some cases but it WILL be shown up in a LOT of cases.

mugger

my main point was that very little people in any army's would get to this point so in other words wouldn't get a lot of "real" practice
So trail and error feedback wouldn't be common or reliable,your purely going off what someone (who probably hasn't been in many fights if any) tells you will work.
Don't get me wrong,everybody to there own but don't advertise lies and make people think they will be bullet proof

Mouthalmighty

Howya Dave,

I read a stat somewhere that in 70% of stabbing incidents (possibly related deaths) the first stab is fatal, (this was counter intuitive to what I thought) in shooting incidents with 9 mm pistol only 10% of the first shots are fatal. If you read my rant I said if you can't run away back into a wall if possible and hope to stay on your feet. (I study BJJ and if I was to go to the ground against multiple opponents you're gonna get stomped on). My argument about the knife is that if your opponent has a knife get out of there quick , if you can't teep like a mofo (like you taught us in college Dave) to keep distance. I wouldn't advice anyone to bust out any commando crap because your margin of error is too small. While on the door (and where I grew up) I saw 2 kinds of lads who carried knives, lads who used them as a threat and lads who used them. The latter usually gave no warning, one probably wouldn't see the knife.I got stabbed once in the ar$e (with a spork thingy but it went in far) & it hurt like yellow hell I thought I tore my glut, didn't realise what had happened. Almost debilitating pain (maybe I'm just soft). Just giving my 2 cents. Like all of us here. The reason to study martial arts is mainly for confidence, a would be attacker won't attack someone who has confidence they'd attack the eyes to the ground person. Animal instinct or some such.

Graemec

Peetrik wrote: »

See the problem there Graemec is that you can't possibly know if KM as it's taught here is going to be effective. You've never trained here.

KM as it is taught in Ireland, in any example provided here, is pretty much as has been described above. Untested techniques taught in a compliant fashion, and blatantly falsely advertised as being far more effective than it could ever hope to be in the hopes of snaring the gullible.




Do you have any videos of you or your club sparring?

Hi Peetrik I do not have any footage of sparring but please check out the website: truekravmagacapetown.co.za

Peetrik

This video is from the site you posted. At 30 seconds it shows a guy disarming two gun wielding opponents at the same time. This kind of thing is complete walter mitty stuff from the land of fairies and unicorns, it will not work against anyone who is actually trying to hit you and is exactly the type of nonsense that people are giving out about. Taking money off people to teach them this is deceitful and you are doing them a disservice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdpplD20Z5o

Graemec

Peetrik wrote: »

This video is from the site you posted. At 30 seconds it shows a guy disarming two gun wielding opponents at the same time. This kind of thing is complete walter mitty stuff from the land of fairies and unicorns, it will not work against anyone who is actually trying to hit you and is exactly the type of nonsense that people are giving out about. Taking money off people to teach them this is deceitful and you are doing them a disservice

The heading clearly states demonstration, The point if I understand the topic of this discussion, was offering a weekend seminar and then being able to defend yourself against any attack on the street.

Dermighty

Graemec wrote: »

The heading clearly states demonstration, The point if I understand the topic of this discussion, was offering a weekend seminar and then being able to defend yourself against any attack on the street.

If it's not illustrating the capabilities of the training then it's a demonstration of what exactly?

My take on it is if the demonstration shows someone disarming two armed attacks simultaneously then it's accurate to say that people training the same techniques can expect results like that.

hurpederp

Peetrik wrote: »

This video is from the site you posted. At 30 seconds it shows a guy disarming two gun wielding opponents at the same time. This kind of thing is complete walter mitty stuff from the land of fairies and unicorns, it will not work against anyone who is actually trying to hit you and is exactly the type of nonsense that people are giving out about. Taking money off people to teach them this is deceitful and you are doing them a disservice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdpplD20Z5o

Peetrik, it is a demonstration of Gun Kata. Don't be so closeminded. I live in Limerick, a rough town, and I can't tell you the amount of times two people have simultaneously pressed guns into my forehead. Thats legit. I wonder if Royce Gracie could have defended that. Probably not.

Graemec

Dermighty wrote: »

If it's not illustrating the capabilities of the training then it's a demonstration of what exactly?

My take on it is if the demonstration shows someone disarming two armed attacks simultaneously then it's accurate to say that people training the same techniques can expect results like that.

I agree and the demonstration shows what can be achieved, techniques ranging from a beginner to advanced. To call it Walter mitty stuff is incorrect as this system has been tested. Each to his own opinion.

Peetrik

Graemec wrote: »

Each to his own opinion.

I'm usually all for that, but the problem is that your opinion is at best defrauding people out of money for a service you don't have the competence to perform and at worst quite likely see someone seriously hurt or killed.

You are a danger to yourself and others for teaching this nonsense.

Graemec

Peetrik wrote: »

I'm usually all for that, but the problem is that your opinion is at best defrauding people out of money for a service you don't have the competence to perform and at worst quite likely see someone seriously hurt or killed.

You are a danger to yourself and others for teaching this nonsense.

Your opinion, you are entitled to it. I would rather be prepared than unprepared it is a jungle out there.

Dermighty

Graemec wrote: »

Your opinion, you are entitled to it. I would rather be prepared than unprepared it is a jungle out there.

Show 100% full contact live sparring or GTFO.

Graemec

Ok that escalated quickly, on a lighter note what you all doing on the weekend?

Tim_Murphy

Two guns held to a person's head and you think it would be possible to disarm them both and end up with guns in your own hands ready to rock? To be fair, that would be pretty gangsta if you could do it.

If that isn't Walter Mitty stuff I don't know what is.

You could test this stuff very easy with paintballs or airsoft guns or something like that. Something that would sting and leave a mark but wouldn't do any serious damage. You never see those videos though for some reason.