Extreme Combat Ireland Krav Maga: Carlow .... One Day Seminar

gonko

First Aid Ireland wrote: »

Thanks Shadowfax.

I don't think any martial art/defence system promotes violence as the first option. But the issue is effectiveness when that happens. My own very humble opinion is that KM is like a footballer training by just running around a few cones, or by taking penalties, or by just practicing little individual skills with his mate. He'd develop some nice skills to showcase, but he wouldn't be very effective in a football match.

I'm no expert in fighting or martial arts at all. In fact I'd be quite the opposite. But I think the comment above about how no KM techniques have been brought into the MMA ring is very telling. While I think the amount of confidence people have in MMA can be a little overboard, it's a system that's good at taking the useful stuff and getting rid of the rest.

I have seen Krav Maga in action and have trained along side some KM players. And I myself train in Silat. The reason you dont see these styles cross into MMA is because they are banned from it. KM just like Silat is a self defense. It is not a sport like MMA. In Silat we aim to have the confrontation ended in seconds if possible. And using literally whatever means to do so. I know for a fact what I do in silat I could not carry into an MMA ring (apart from the muay thai striking) if i was into cage fighting. It would end up in serious injuries or worse for my opponent. The mindset would be - he is trying to hit me or knock me out, whereas I would be looking to damage or destroy any body part that I can get to. See the difference. Just because it is not present in an MMA ring doesnt mean its crap. There are alot of limits on what you can do to someone in an MMA ring also when compared to a self defense art/style. I love watching cage fighting on TV and always try to watch UFC when its on. But there is a big difference between defense arts and sport orientated styles or arts.
PS I have huge respect for MMA guys and their training and fitness is top notch. So before anyone thinks I am MMA bashing I am most certainly not.

boxer.fan

Thanks Gonko,

by the sounds of that we wont be needing Batman anymore now that we have "KM players" on the streets.

peteclarke

Good thing for Jon jones that gonko is sticking to Silat.
I'd say he was bricking it you were gonna destroy some of his body parts.

First Aid Ireland

gonko wrote: »

I have seen Krav Maga in action and have trained along side some KM players. And I myself train in Silat. The reason you dont see these styles cross into MMA is because they are banned from it. KM just like Silat is a self defense. It is not a sport like MMA. In Silat we aim to have the confrontation ended in seconds if possible. And using literally whatever means to do so. I know for a fact what I do in silat I could not carry into an MMA ring (apart from the muay thai striking) if i was into cage fighting. It would end up in serious injuries or worse for my opponent. The mindset would be - he is trying to hit me or knock me out, whereas I would be looking to damage or destroy any body part that I can get to. See the difference. Just because it is not present in an MMA ring doesnt mean its crap. There are alot of limits on what you can do to someone in an MMA ring also when compared to a self defense art/style. I love watching cage fighting on TV and always try to watch UFC when its on. But there is a big difference between defense arts and sport orientated styles or arts.
PS I have huge respect for MMA guys and their training and fitness is top notch. So before anyone thinks I am MMA bashing I am most certainly not.

The only thing i can remember in KM that would be illegal in an MMA ring is the nut-kicking. And there's a lot of that!

Some of the techniques involved the odd headbutt, too. But I never learned how to eye gouge or bite.

I'm far from a KM expert. But the vast majority of stuff I learned in training would be legal in an MMA ring.

gonko

First Aid Ireland wrote: »

gonko wrote: »

I have seen Krav Maga in action and have trained along side some KM players. And I myself train in Silat. The reason you dont see these styles cross into MMA is because they are banned from it. KM just like Silat is a self defense. It is not a sport like MMA. In Silat we aim to have the confrontation ended in seconds if possible. And using literally whatever means to do so. I know for a fact what I do in silat I could not carry into an MMA ring (apart from the muay thai striking) if i was into cage fighting. It would end up in serious injuries or worse for my opponent. The mindset would be - he is trying to hit me or knock me out, whereas I would be looking to damage or destroy any body part that I can get to. See the difference. Just because it is not present in an MMA ring doesnt mean its crap. There are alot of limits on what you can do to someone in an MMA ring also when compared to a self defense art/style. I love watching cage fighting on TV and always try to watch UFC when its on. But there is a big difference between defense arts and sport orientated styles or arts.
PS I have huge respect for MMA guys and their training and fitness is top notch. So before anyone thinks I am MMA bashing I am most certainly not.

The only thing i can remember in KM that would be illegal in an MMA ring is the nut-kicking. And there's a lot of that!

Some of the techniques involved the odd headbutt, too. But I never learned how to eye gouge or bite.

I'm far from a KM expert. But the vast majority of stuff I learned in training would be legal in an MMA ring.

Well the KM i seen was not MMA friendly. You will always have poor instructors and maybe this was the case. The replies after me about batman and some other guy. I will say that on this boards people are very very close minded. The majority on here believe MMA is the baddest thing out there and that for any style to be effective it needs to be compared to MMA. Its like comparing a gun to a knife. MMA is a "sport" and has "rules". Eye gouging and nut shots are just 2 of the extreme options. There are more than this. But i wont say or try to convince anyone as we seem to be upsetting some mma fans on here lol.

Socialist_Pig

I love Krav Maga threads:D

**This is not a forum for making political statements** - Makikomi.

First Aid Ireland

gonko wrote: »

Well the KM i seen was not MMA friendly. You will always have poor instructors and maybe this was the case. The replies after me about batman and some other guy. I will say that on this boards people are very very close minded. The majority on here believe MMA is the baddest thing out there and that for any style to be effective it needs to be compared to MMA. Its like comparing a gun to a knife. MMA is a "sport" and has "rules". Eye gouging and nut shots are just 2 of the extreme options. There are more than this. But i wont say or try to convince anyone as we seem to be upsetting some mma fans on here lol.

I'm not trying to have a go or be argumentative. But my own experience of KM were that, aside from the nut shots, there wasn't much else that would be illegal in KM. There was some hairpulling or headbutting, but I never did much of that. Mostly it was stuff that you could use in MMA if it were effective.

peteclarke

If only Makkiomi had have gone through with his dream to join the Israeli Army, that could have been him in the video.

gonko

First Aid Ireland wrote: »

gonko wrote: »

Well the KM i seen was not MMA friendly. You will always have poor instructors and maybe this was the case. The replies after me about batman and some other guy. I will say that on this boards people are very very close minded. The majority on here believe MMA is the baddest thing out there and that for any style to be effective it needs to be compared to MMA. Its like comparing a gun to a knife. MMA is a "sport" and has "rules". Eye gouging and nut shots are just 2 of the extreme options. There are more than this. But i wont say or try to convince anyone as we seem to be upsetting some mma fans on here lol.

I'm not trying to have a go or be argumentative. But my own experience of KM were that, aside from the nut shots, there wasn't much else that would be illegal in KM. There was some hairpulling or headbutting, but I never did much of that. Mostly it was stuff that you could use in MMA if it were effective.

I appreciate what you are saying. The Krav Maga i have seen was alot different from what you are describing.

arybvtcw0eolkf

peteclarke wrote: »

If only Makkiomi had have gone through with his dream to join the Israeli Army, that could have been him in the video.

And you, stop being a smart alek.

If you post in this thread again you'll be banned from the forum.

First Aid Ireland

gonko wrote: »

I appreciate what you are saying. The Krav Maga i have seen was alot different from what you are describing.

I can take that point, if there's some kind of KM out there that I haven't come across then fair enough.

Is there anything on youtube showing the effective but not allowable in MMA stuff that you mean?

Ddad

The elbow strikes are also illegal, I believe.

For the most part though I agree with FAI. I popped my knee in training recently so had to sit out the class (KM) which involved sitting watching the gloved sparring at the end. Twas like a sea of windmills. Most of the lads in the class would be fecked in a real fight.

I do beleive KM would be very effective in a fight if you were proficient. To be honest I've only seen a handful of lads who were though and most had alternative MA backgrounds so had the groundwork done. Of course some of the israeli lads are machines! They're doing it 20 years though.

I've done the weekend course a long time ago and it was great fun and generated an interest for me but it really wasn't going to help me much in a situation. You don't get muscle memory overnight.

Having said that as FAI said KM is great craic. We have a decent cohort of lads in the club and the workout is great. Sweating like a pig after the warmup let alone the rest of the class. I also agree that it is a money racket in many cases but I've done some really informative additional seminars through my club that I was happy with. It's also given me the confidence to attend seminars outside KM in other diciplines which were brilliant and very welcoming.

gonko

Ddad wrote: »

The elbow strikes are also illegal, I believe.

For the most part though I agree with FAI. I popped my knee in training recently so had to sit out the class (KM) which involved sitting watching the gloved sparring at the end. Twas like a sea of windmills. Most of the lads in the class would be fecked in a real fight.

I do beleive KM would be very effective in a fight if you were proficient. To be honest I've only seen a handful of lads who were though and most had alternative MA backgrounds so had the groundwork done. Of course some of the israeli lads are machines! They're doing it 20 years though.

I've done the weekend course a long time ago and it was great fun and generated an interest for me but it really wasn't going to help me much in a situation. You don't get muscle memory overnight.

Having said that as FAI said KM is great craic. We have a decent cohort of lads in the club and the workout is great. Sweating like a pig after the warmup let alone the rest of the class. I also agree that it is a money racket in many cases but I've done some really informative additional seminars through my club that I was happy with. It's also given me the confidence to attend seminars outside KM in other diciplines which were brilliant and very welcoming.

If you say the gloved sparring was like windmills then perhaps these lads are not trained correct. In a pressure siuation alterations creep in and non advanced guys can look messy. Its tye same in all styles. This being said as far as i knew there was only one properly qualified KM commando who teaches and he was located in Galway. There is KM clubs popping up all over the shop lately so maybe question their authenticity to tye results you see. If you still believe you would be fecked in a real situation then my only advice is pick another style that will serve to protect you.

paxo

gonko wrote: »

Well the KM i seen was not MMA friendly. You will always have poor instructors and maybe this was the case. The replies after me about batman and some other guy. I will say that on this boards people are very very close minded. The majority on here believe MMA is the baddest thing out there and that for any style to be effective it needs to be compared to MMA. Its like comparing a gun to a knife. MMA is a "sport" and has "rules". Eye gouging and nut shots are just 2 of the extreme options. There are more than this. But i wont say or try to convince anyone as we seem to be upsetting some mma fans on here lol.

Krav Maga was developed from Imi's experience in boxing, wrestling and police restraint and control techniques that he learned from his father. In my opinion it is not that different to the techniques used in MMA or other martial arts systems.

MMA fighters use their techniques to fight against another MMA fighter in a sporting contest. KM students train in similar techniques to prepare for an assault situation that may involve weapons and multiple attackers

For me the main difference is that MMA fighters get to test their abilities through sparing and contests. KM students will not know for sure if their training works until they are unlucky enough to find themselves a victim of an assault.

In regard to non sporting techniques such as eye gouging and nut shots, both eye gouging and low blows are not unknown in boxing however they are difficult techniques to train realistically and are not necessarily fight stoppers
Paxo

gonko

paxo wrote: »

Krav Maga was developed from Imi's experience in boxing, wrestling and police restraint and control techniques that he learned from his father. In my opinion it is not that different to the techniques used in MMA or other martial arts systems.

MMA fighters use their techniques to fight against another MMA fighter in a sporting contest. KM students train in similar techniques to prepare for an assault situation that may involve weapons and multiple attackers

For me the main difference is that MMA fighters get to test their abilities through sparing and contests. KM students will not know for sure if their training works until they are unlucky enough to find themselves a victim of an assault.

In regard to non sporting techniques such as eye gouging and nut shots, both eye gouging and low blows are not unknown in boxing however they are difficult techniques to train realistically and are not necessarily fight stoppers
Paxo

MMA fighters will be pressure tested more often, more frequently. People who do self defense orientated styles, practise and practise and practise until perfection is achieved. Then we pressure test against a real live opponent at full speed. If the technique at this point fails, we go back and practise until it does work. I cannot speak for KM but in my silat training this is what we do. MMA is geared for competition therefore it is expected the focus of training is alot of sparring. With self defense the goal needs to be an instant result. Thats why we train differently. We spar when we have learned properly the techniques and mastered control and speed over it, and to a point where we are almost guaranteed a result, and if not be adaptable enough to spring into something else. To suggest that KM fighters or other self defense style fighters are not pressure tested to the extent of MMA guys is crazy. I can assure you we are and I have the bruises to prove it. It is just done in different ways and to meet different goals. And the sparring itself is completely different too.
Link below to see a toned down version of silat in competition. But look at the movement of the fighter. Almost inviting the opponent into his space. It is very unorthadox but effective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShoJVkFvVbM

paxo

Gonko
I have no experience of Silat so I can not comment on the effectiveness of its training methodology or of its techniques.

However I have had experience of Krav Maga and it does not pressure test against a real live opponent at full speed. However it does utilise drills that are designed to put the participant under pressure both mental and physical pressure and that on occasions simulate a fight situation. It is a simulation in which the participants understand that they will not get hurt apart from some bruises.

I do not think that MMA is the baddest thing on the planet but I do think that its approach in common with other fighting sports is more honest

The attached clip was interesting to me, in that apart from the initial stances the techniques utilised appeared to be no differert from those used in any MMA bout

gonko

paxo wrote: »

Gonko
I have no experience of Silat so I can not comment on the effectiveness of its training methodology or of its techniques.

However I have had experience of Krav Maga and it does not pressure test against a real live opponent at full speed. However it does utilise drills that are designed to put the participant under pressure both mental and physical pressure and that on occasions simulate a fight situation. It is a simulation in which the participants understand that they will not get hurt apart from some bruises.

I do not think that MMA is the baddest thing on the planet but I do think that its approach in common with other fighting sports is more honest

The attached clip was interesting to me, in that apart from the initial stances the techniques utilised appeared to be no differert from those used in any MMA bout

Correct it was a much toned down version of silat in order to make it ring legal. But you can see from the clip how unorthadox the style is. I agree to most other styles mma is more honest .....but i also said most. It depends on how the art is taught. i agree with your points otherwise. As for KM or any style for that matter, if its not pressure tested then its effectiveness and your learning as a student can not be measured. I have huge respect for mma guys. They are always in great shape and are very good at what they do. So i am not mma basging. Just pointing out the main differences i guess.

Doug Cartel

There's not much you can conclude from that video beyond that both of those fighters are pretty crap, and after all their fancy stepping and shape throwing, a sloppy guillotine choke was what ended the fight.

Naos

gonko wrote: »

ts like comparing a gun to a knife. MMA is a "sport" and has "rules". Eye gouging and nut shots are just 2 of the extreme options. There are more than this. But i wont say or try to convince anyone as we seem to be upsetting some mma fans on here lol.

Gonko, I'm not trying to be smart but I'm fairly certain that any MMAer knows how to eye gouge or give a nut shot - these are not moves only available to a KMer.

gonko wrote: »

Link below to see a toned down version of silat in competition. But look at the movement of the fighter. Almost inviting the opponent into his space. It is very unorthadox but effective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShoJVkFvVbM

I would love to see Cowzer take one of them on. These lads were quite sloppy, couldn't throw a punch and wouldn't last a round with someone who trains regularly in MMA.

I'm not a fan of KM due to its money-hungry nature (and considering this I'm surprised why there are not lads trained in KM competiting in the likes of the UFC with potential for +$1mil per fight) + false confidence it generates in people, as stated earlier by FAI.

gonko

Naos wrote: »

gonko wrote: »

ts like comparing a gun to a knife. MMA is a "sport" and has "rules". Eye gouging and nut shots are just 2 of the extreme options. There are more than this. But i wont say or try to convince anyone as we seem to be upsetting some mma fans on here lol.

Gonko, I'm not trying to be smart but I'm fairly certain that any MMAer knows how to eye gouge or give a nut shot - these are not moves only available to a KMer.

gonko wrote: »

Link below to see a toned down version of silat in competition. But look at the movement of the fighter. Almost inviting the opponent into his space. It is very unorthadox but effective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShoJVkFvVbM

I would love to see Cowzer take one of them on. These lads were quite sloppy, couldn't throw a punch and wouldn't last a round with someone who trains regularly in MMA.

I'm not a fan of KM due to its money-hungry nature (and considering this I'm surprised why there are not lads trained in KM competiting in the likes of the UFC with potential for +$1mil per fight) + false confidence it generates in people, as stated earlier by FAI.

Why do you benchmark a style against MMA. Why does everything have to stack up against this sport? If you think the fighters in my vid was sloppy....look closer. One guy was sloppy. The other exploited every opportunity he got. I dont judge any particular style on its effectiveness against MMA. To me MMA is a sport. A little kickboxing with some jiu jitsu thrown in. Nothing so special in fairness. To be blunt....anyone trained properly in any good traditional martial art would make piss of an MMA fighter. And thats the facts. MMA fighters are trained to compete over a few rounds. Traditional martial artists train to literally maime someone in seconds . You cannot compare a sport with a martial art. They are 2 different things and will achieve different outcomes.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Naos

gonko wrote: »

Why do you benchmark a style against MMA. Why does everything have to stack up against this sport? If you think the fighters in my vid was sloppy....look closer. One guy was sloppy. The other exploited every opportunity he got. I dont judge any particular style on its effectiveness against MMA. To me MMA is a sport. A little kickboxing with some jiu jitsu thrown in. Nothing so special in fairness. To be blunt....anyone trained properly in any good traditional martial art would make piss of an MMA fighter. And thats the facts. MMA fighters are trained to compete over a few rounds. Traditional martial artists train to literally maime someone in seconds . You cannot compare a sport with a martial art. They are 2 different things and will achieve different outcomes.

The reason I would benchmark against MMA is because it is the benchmark, as pointed out earlier.

You are correct, MMA fighters will train to compete over a few rounds, IF it goes the distance. They want to be able to compete at that level. That doesn't mean they are going to prance around for three rounds and hope the judges will decide in their favour.

Have you ever watched an MMA fight? Look at a local fighter like Conor McGregor, he's trained to last rounds but he stops fights fast.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for KM however I really hope for your sake you're not being lulled into a false sense of security in it and what it will 'make you capable of on the street'.

gonko

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Your about 20 years behind,this argument has already been won.

The two guys in the video are typical of guys who dont spar enough,they wouldnt last two minutes with a fairly low level mma fighter in the street or not,very sloppy.

The benchmark is mma for a reason.[/Quote]
The benchmark is MMA? LOL. Come on man are you for real. Im not going to argue with you guys on this. If you think a ring sport is more effective than a traditional martial art that had been developed over decades then i really dont know what to say. Im gob smacked quite frankly. And i watch mma on a regular basis. Maybe I am lucky and fortunate to have a good instructor in my particular style. I cannot comment on KM or any other styles taught in irelands. And by the way the video i linked was not Silat.....merely the entries and decoy positions were taken from it. Most of what i do in silat is not legal in MMA. There are bits such as muay thai striking and such that would be but again silat is not and never will be a sport unless it is severely diluted. MMA is very good. I watch it regularly and is very entertaining. It is the benchmark of combat sports. It is not a benchmark of martial arts....because it isn't one.

pablohoney87

Early ufc had no rules literally except eye gougin and 'oil checks'
A silat guy entered and was spanked by a ninjitsu fighter. A FOOKIN NINJITSU FIGHTER.
The reason why a 'traditionally' trained fighter will never ever match up to a well trained mma fighter is because you don't train to fight (or even defend yourselves well). You train set defined patterns against compliant opponents. All because the techniques are too 'dangerous' to practice with resistance.
People can say they train in martial arts all they want. But can they fight (street, garage, cage, covered in jelly)?
NO!
(Well maybe covered in jelly. You can make a dam good living at it too )

oh and spare me the bull about what's illegal in mma
groin shots aside anyone whose done bjj long enough has had some spaz try to stick their thumb in his wind pipe or eye. Do we tell him to stop and bitch about him? No we armbar the knob and it'l teach him to keep his hands to himself.

Dyr

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Early ufc had no rules literally except eye gougin and 'oil checks'
A silat guy entered and was spanked by a ninjitsu fighter. A FOOKIN NINJITSU FIGHTER.
The reason why a 'traditionally' trained fighter will never ever match up to a well trained mma fighter is because you don't train to fight (or even defend yourselves well). You train set defined patterns against compliant opponents. All because the techniques are too 'dangerous' to practice with resistance.
People can say they train in martial arts all they want. But can they fight (street, garage, cage, covered in jelly)?
NO!
(Well maybe covered in jelly. You can make a dam good living at it too )

personally, I'm training to attack straw men. There's a lot of them bastards out there

And Remco Pardoel was a ninjutsu fighter? He kept that fairly quiet :pac:

pablohoney87

Was it remco beat him? I thought it was the lad who got elbowed into oblivion by pat smith.
Right or wrong my you get my point

Dyr

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Was it remco beat him? I thought it was the lad who got elbowed into oblivion by pat smith.
Right or wrong my you get my point

Don't think so, he was an older geezer who threw a few a nice flicky strikes and actually got an entry to remcos back and then like every non grappler got taken down and battered while he tried to figure out how to fight off his back


this is what silat competition looks like, TKD with some nice sweeps, scissors and occasional break dancing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR7V54EBkyk

pablohoney87

Tbh i have interest in one of these silly 'debates' right now.
was just reading the thread and some of gonkos arguments were just painful to read. And this is coming from a man who bit his tongue 3 weeks ago at a seminar where a trad guy tried to claim jamming your tongue to your pallet stops you passing out from a rear naked choke

Peetrik

gonko wrote: »

Why do you benchmark a style against MMA. Why does everything have to stack up against this sport?

To sidestep the style vs style debate, I think it would be fair to say that the reason that MMA is used as a benchmark is because of the consistency in training methodoligy used across the bord in most MMA clubs. Those being...

1) Focus on sport specific fitness
2) Training technique against unwilling participants
3) Regular hard sparring to get used to being hit

They are practised in other TMAs too but not all and not with the consistency as MMA

gonko wrote: »

anyone trained properly in any good traditional martial art would make piss of an MMA fighter.

This is just plain wrong.

gonko

Bambi wrote: »

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Was it remco beat him? I thought it was the lad who got elbowed into oblivion by pat smith.
Right or wrong my you get my point

Don't think so, he was an older geezer who threw a few a nice flicky strikes and actually got an entry to remcos back and then like every non grappler got taken down and battered while he tried to figure out how to fight off his back


this is what silat competition looks like, TKD with some nice sweeps, scissors and occasional break dancing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR7V54EBkyk

Silat and competition? What you are seeing in tge video is a MUCH diluted version of what silat is about. I am not dissing mma. i seem to have upset people on here. Jesus. What is MMA. Mixed Martial Arts. So it is parts of traditional arts combined in order to suit a competition environment. SThere are parts of MT, silat, TKD already present in mma rings. But its only a combination to suit competition. Wheras a traditional style (if taught properly) does get pressure tested against an unwilling opponent. Techniques are done on willing opponents at first to perfect them. Then they are improved and speed added until they are at an acceptable success level against an unwilling opponent. Maybe other martial arts have willing opponents all the time. Mine most certainly does not. However we do refrain from full head blows and stuff like that. Obviously we are not looking to be at a point where we are counting how many hits yiu can take. Where with mma that is a factor with stamina etc. They are trained differently and have different outcomes. I personally wouldnt have the fitness to go a number of rounds in a cage lol. Thats not what i want in a martial art. This is not a style vs style debate. Every style has its good and bad points. But MMA guys cant see this and go on the defensive right away. It does you no justice lads. Respect and an open mind go a long way. I have already aknowledged in this thread i like mma. I have watched it. I have trained with former mma guys also. So relax and open yiur minds.