Household Charge Mega-Thread [Part 2] *Poll Reset*

Bruthal

mikom wrote: »

Ride the snake, ride the snake
To the lake, the ancient lake, baby
The snake is long, seven miles
Ride the snake...he's old, and his skin is cold

And he slithers away, from the unfair poll tax we`re told.

phil1nj

alastair wrote: »

I'm afraid it does - try reading the entire post again.

Nope, read it a few times now and from what I can see (and bear with me here because it involves going in to the inner workings of your mind), you were asked by hondasam what would you do if the property tax was increased to 900Euro next year.

Your response was "I'll say pay your damn taxes" Now since the original hypothetical question was addressed to you, I can only assume that the response given was directed at you as well. Therefore you are telling yourself to pay your taxes (you've stated this with an expletive to reinforce the point).

But you didn't always pay your taxes, did you alastair? You admitted on here to not paying a tax, a legal tax that you deemed to be unfair which therefore somehow justified your actions. So you are a hypocrite because what you said actually goes against what you did. Do I have to explain this again?

Now please let it go, you are starting to embarrass yourself.

Bruthal

phil1nj wrote: »

Nope, read it a few times now and from what I can see (and bear with me here because it involves going in to the inner workings of your mind), you were asked by hondasam what would you do if the property tax was increased to 900Euro next year.

Your response was "I'll say pay your damn taxes" Now since the original hypothetical question was addressed to you, I can only assume that the response given was directed at you as well. Therefore you are telling yourself to pay your taxes (you've stated this with an expletive to reinforce the point).

But you didn't always pay your taxes, did you alastair? You admitted on here to not paying a tax, a legal tax that you deemed to be unfair which therefore somehow justified your actions. So you are a hypocrite because what you said actually goes against what you did. Do I have to explain this again?

Now please let it go, you are starting to embarrass yourself.

O well there must still be a good reason why he didnt pay his damn taxes though, but he might not tell us now. He has a habbit of avoiding things besides his taxes.

alfa beta

The Crab wrote: »

(a)Free medical care - the United Kingdom has it.
(b)Free education (I'm talking about kids here) - the United Kingdom has it, Ireland doesn't.
(c)Free call outs for emergency services - the United Kingdom has them.
(d)Proper mains water and sewage systems - the United Kingdom has them.
(e)A public transport system that is affordable not exorbitant - the United Kingdom has it.

And don't gob off about the council tax there being higher than the household charge here. The council tax pays for services, not bull**** like the household charge. Street lighting. What loonybin thinks the council pay for street lighting. Its included in your ESB bill in the standard charge. Don't be so dull that you think that's for paper work.

The UK system is corrupt, and the taxes on the poor are way too high, whilst the rich get off scot free like here. Its in need of radical reform, like I've suggested should happen here. But at least they have public services.

I don't usually relish the prospect of getting involved in debates online, but I feel I must address some of your points above as my experience living both in the UK and here doesn't really correlate with your observations

15 years ago me and my wife owned a small two-bed terraced house in milton keynes in the UK, worth £45,000 at the time - we paid approx £90 sterling a month back then council tax (and we were earning about £34,000 joint income - me on 15 and herself on just under 19k). We got our bins collected - otherwise there was no discernible difference between public services in the uk and here.
Seriously. You make it sound like some sort of utopia. it wasn't. The nhs had and still has problems just like the hse.
As for your second point, schools did fundraising in the uk just like they do here (and btw, my little boy is in primary school here now and we make absolutely no contribution to the school - even though they include activities like swimming lessons, music lessons etc to the curriculum - a pro-active parents assoc is what matters.)
third point: I've no idea how much call out charges are here for emergency services. Perhaps you could post actual details as oppose to a vague statements. All I do know is that my father was in a serious car accident a few years back and ended up in an ambulance to the nearest hospitl - we didn't see any bill for that. Similiarly, my little boy broke his wrist a couple of years ago and I had to bring him to the a&e in CUH. He was treated very well and again I didn't see a bill - though I would have been more than happy to pay one as I found the doctors and nurses to be exemplary with regard to his treatment.
Your fourth point: water and sewerage. Well, now because we live in the country we have our own well and 'bio-friendly' bord-na-mona approved septic tank and treatment system, but in previous years since we came back from England we've lived in Dungarvan, then Dublin, then Cork and in each occasion we had a perfectly well functioning mains water and sewerage system - for which we paid, well, nothing.
What's more we had street lighting, local parks (including some very good kiddie ones) libraries, footpaths that were kept clean, and generally public services that were on the whole totally acceptable.
Your last point deals with public transport. Again you suggest the UK has it all sown up. Ain't the case. All of the rail services are privatised and most of the bus services are (with companies like Stagecoach the dominant operators.) Let's face it, with a population of circa 60 million living on an island about 2.5 times bigger than ours, and with most of that population crammed into towns and cities, it's a hell of a lot easier to run transport systems profitbaly.

So I'm not gobbing off about the council tax being higher in the uk - but the fact is - it just is - in fact my own evidence is that it was 10 times higher 15 yeas ago in MK for me than the current €100 charge here. Facts - nothing else.

Finally I never saw any corruption in the UK system generally - apart from the fact that councils which were run by the party in opposition tended to charge higher council tax than those run by the party in gevernment!!!!

Also, you say the poor are taxed too much while the rich get off 'scot free'. I think this is an absurd fallacy put about by those who simply want to lay the blame for a recession on the shoulders of others. Let me put a concrete example down here on paper (or on screen as it were!) I am a self-employed part-time copywriter/full-time dad! Within the scope of school hours etc I manage to do enough writing to earn about 20 to 25,000 a year. When I do my income tax I usually end up paying approx 3k a year in tax. Perfectly affordable in my view. My wife on the other hand is a phenomenally hard-working manager of a big and (in commercial terms) important team for a huge multi-national organisation and she earns about 120 - 130 k a year (dep on bonuses etc). She works incredibly hard, she manages a big and diverse team, she flies over and back to the states at a days notice, she burns the candle at both ends, she's forever on her mobile/blackberry etc and we're talking 9 and 10 o'clock at night) and she's valued highly by her employer - to the extent of more than 10k a month....but the thing is she's dedicated and hard-working and talented and committed and flexible and all those things that should entitle her to earn good money. (Of all the people I know only one of two others would be capable or willing to do her job - and that's a very important thing to take into consideration. I know for example I wouldn't be able or willing to do her job - because often big salaries come with big responsibilities and big demands....and it's just easier to earn less). And she pays about 4.5k a month income tax (incl usc etc)....and personally I think that's a lot of money to pay into to the state. That's basically money taken out of her wage (a renumeration package determined by her (American) employer - based on her level of reponsibility) by this state to help run things here and pay welfare and pay for medical cards and pay for general services for everyone - many of which neither she nor I will in most likelihood avail of.

Is it not a good thing that someone can get and do a job with an American company which then results in about 50,000 of that company's money going straight into services in this country (in the form of income tax). So instead of always moaning about the well off not paying enough tax shouldn't we be trying to ensure more people become 'well off' by encouraging more and more of that type of company to come in and do business in this country.

I really feel there's somewhat of an element of short-sightedness and me-feinism around at the moment, especially in regards to the household charge. Don't get me wrong I'm sure there are people who literally can't afford it. But I would hazard that they make up quite a small percentage of those who have not paid it.

At the end of the day I hold by the simple logic that we as a country currently borrow more than we take in (Nothing to do with baknks etc) and that needs to change. How? a more sustainable tax base. Necessary evil imo. And a more sensible spending structure - wouldn't it be great if all county councils were abolished and we just had provincial councils.....here's to dreaming, but hey, you never know!

lividduck

"Would you pay a charge if you were unhappy with the service?" asks big Phil
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hogan-wont-pay-penthouse-charge-3067684.html

The Crab

Your wife earns more than ten grand a month yet she only pays 4.5k in income tax? Sorry but that's why the country is in the state its in. There should be a level considered decent enough to live on, say 30,000 per annum and anything above that gets taxed at 100%. Exactly what do you need 5.5k a month for? Luxurious living, certainly not basic living. I've never heard such a right wing view. My wife is so talented she earns great money so to hell with everyone else.

I also have experience of the UK and know for example that whilst the NHS is not perfect at least it exists and you don't have to pay sixty quid to take a sick child to a gp who looks at him/her for ten seconds. No the UK is not a utopia, I pointed out it wasn't but you ignored that. But I'd say living in Ireland on 155k is a lot easier than living in the UK on 34k.

Frank Black

The Crab wrote: »

Your wife earns more than ten grand a month yet she only pays 4.5k in income tax? Sorry but that's why the country is in the state its in. There should be a level considered decent enough to live on, say 30,000 per annum and anything above that gets taxed at 100%. Exactly what do you need 5.5k a month for? Luxurious living, certainly not basic living. I've never heard such a right wing view. My wife is so talented she earns great money so to hell with everyone else.

I also have experience of the UK and know for example that whilst the NHS is not perfect at least it exists and you don't have to pay sixty quid to take a sick child to a gp who looks at him/her for ten seconds. No the UK is not a utopia, I pointed out it wasn't but you ignored that. But I'd say living in Ireland on 155k is a lot easier than living in the UK on 34k.

Sounds like a 'Jealousy Tax'.

lugha

phil1nj wrote: »

But you didn't always pay your taxes, did you alastair? You admitted on here to not paying a tax, a legal tax that you deemed to be unfair which therefore somehow justified your actions. So you are a hypocrite because what you said actually goes against what you did. Do I have to explain this again?

robbie7730 wrote: »

O well there must still be a good reason why he didnt pay his damn taxes though, but he might not tell us now. He has a habbit of avoiding things besides his taxes.

lividduck wrote: »

Hogan refuses to pay service charge on his penthouse!

Well we seem to have moved on from sheep and it would appear than hypocrisy is likely to be the theme of today’s proceedings.

So a simple question for the “no” side. Are you one of the vast majority who think corrupt politicians should be taken to task for breaking the laws of the land? And why is it not hypocrisy when you are prepared to break the law yourself?

(Oh, and you cannot use “this law is not fair” argument as you don’t accept that argument from Alastair. Cause that would just be … well you know. )

Padraig Mor

The Crab wrote: »

Your wife earns more than ten grand a month yet she only pays 4.5k in income tax? Sorry but that's why the country is in the state its in. There should be a level considered decent enough to live on, say 30,000 per annum and anything above that gets taxed at 100%. Exactly what do you need 5.5k a month for? Luxurious living, certainly not basic living. I've never heard such a right wing view. My wife is so talented she earns great money so to hell with everyone else.

I also have experience of the UK and know for example that whilst the NHS is not perfect at least it exists and you don't have to pay sixty quid to take a sick child to a gp who looks at him/her for ten seconds. No the UK is not a utopia, I pointed out it wasn't but you ignored that. But I'd say living in Ireland on 155k is a lot easier than living in the UK on 34k.

The usual left wing jealousy of anyone who has worked hard for their lot in life. The simple fact of the matter is that 'the rich' pay the overwhelming majority of income taxes and 'the poor' pay feck all, despite being the main beneficiaries of those taxes.

lividduck

lugha wrote: »

Well we seem to have moved on from sheep and it would appear than hypocrisy is likely to be the theme of today’s proceedings.

So a simple question for the “no” side. Are you one of the vast majority who think corrupt politicians should be taken to task for breaking the laws of the land? And why is it not hypocrisy when you are prepared to break the law yourself?

(Oh, and you cannot use “this law is not fair” argument as you don’t accept that argument from Alastair. Cause that would just be … well you know. )

How am I a hypocrite? I vehemently oppose an unjust tax, i paid it but i oppose it-where is the hypocrasy?

true

lividduck wrote: »

"Would you pay a charge if you were unhappy with the service?" asks big Phil
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hogan-wont-pay-penthouse-charge-3067684.html

why do so many people like big Phil have holiday homes abroad? If these public servants like him had not the sense of entitlenment to this, our taxes and household charges would be less. I am not paying a household charge to people who have a better standard of living ( pay / pension/security) that me, who are less qualified and who work less.

As big Phil says, from now on I am not "paying a charge if I am unhappy with the service". I am not happy with how my tax money is spent.

Fix the bucket before you ask me to throw more water in to it.

The Crab

Not jealousy, hard fact. There are two ways of looking at society. The community way, that the strong should help the weak. Or the selfish way, I've got xyz so don't mind if I tread on you whilst you lie in the gutter.

And how fascist are comments like people should be rewarded for working hard. Ah right, so anyone on a low income doesn't work hard. Yes, of course, you're right how silly of me. Barmen, taxi drivers, refuse collectors, waiters, teachers, nurses, average level farmers, work riders, bus and train drivers, all so so lazy. Sure only people paid over 100k a year are hard working. Of course. We're really in a mess if that's your attitude.

irjudge

The Crab wrote: »

There should be a level considered decent enough to live on, say 30,000 per annum and anything above that gets taxed at 100%. Exactly what do you need 5.5k a month for?

Thats certainly a plan. I think there would be very few talented people left in the country, therefore there would be little or no export businesses. Country would still be a basket case.

Frank Black

The Crab wrote: »

Not jealousy, hard fact. There are two ways of looking at society. The community way, that the strong should help the weak. Or the selfish way, I've got xyz so don't mind if I tread on you whilst you lie in the gutter.

And how fascist are comments like people should be rewarded for working hard. Ah right, so anyone on a low income doesn't work hard. Yes, of course, you're right how silly of me. Barmen, taxi drivers, refuse collectors, waiters, teachers, nurses, average level farmers, work riders, bus and train drivers, all so so lazy. Sure only people paid over 100k a year are hard working. Of course. We're really in a mess if that's your attitude.

We've gone from 30k to 100k rather quickly.:rolleyes:

lividduck

The Crab wrote: »

Not jealousy, hard fact. There are two ways of looking at society. The community way, that the strong should help the weak. Or the selfish way, I've got xyz so don't mind if I tread on you whilst you lie in the gutter.

And how fascist are comments like people should be rewarded for working hard. Ah right, so anyone on a low income doesn't work hard. Yes, of course, you're right how silly of me. Barmen, taxi drivers, refuse collectors, waiters, teachers, nurses, average level farmers, work riders, bus and train drivers, all so so lazy. Sure only people paid over 100k a year are hard working. Of course. We're really in a mess if that's your attitude.

I think you will find that you are the extremist, what is wrong with people earning money? You make it seem like a crime! I earn more than my employee, so what? I took the risk to start a business, if people didnt take risks there would be no jobs at all.
You sound like a vert twisted and bitter person.

lugha

lividduck wrote: »

How am I a hypocrite? I vehemently oppose an unjust tax, i paid it but i oppose it-where is the hypocrasy?

Apologies. I don't suggest you are. But I expect the hypocrisy line will be wheeled out quite a bit in relation to the story you linked. You are just the messenger.

MagicSean

The Crab wrote: »

Your wife earns more than ten grand a month yet she only pays 4.5k in income tax? Sorry but that's why the country is in the state its in. There should be a level considered decent enough to live on, say 30,000 per annum and anything above that gets taxed at 100%. Exactly what do you need 5.5k a month for? Luxurious living, certainly not basic living. I've never heard such a right wing view. My wife is so talented she earns great money so to hell with everyone else.

I also have experience of the UK and know for example that whilst the NHS is not perfect at least it exists and you don't have to pay sixty quid to take a sick child to a gp who looks at him/her for ten seconds. No the UK is not a utopia, I pointed out it wasn't but you ignored that. But I'd say living in Ireland on 155k is a lot easier than living in the UK on 34k.

What a load of bull****. They don't need 5.5k a month they earn it. If someone works hard and is good at their job why should they earn the same as some lazy bastard who coasts along in minimum wage jobs. It's attitudes like yours that have the country in a poor state. People just doing enough and never going beyond what is expected of them.

That posters comparisons were brilliant. So many people have been picking false utopian aspects from different countries and trying to compare them to Ireland. They're just fooling themselves.

Padraig Mor

The Crab wrote: »

Not jealousy, hard fact. There are two ways of looking at society. The community way, that the strong should help the weak. .

You mean like the better off paying the taxes which help the poorer on society? The exact system we have at the moment!

lividduck

MagicSean wrote: »

What a load of bull****. They don't need 5.5k a month they earn it. If someone works hard and is good at their job why should they earn the same as some lazy bastard who coasts along in minimum wage jobs[/S. It's attitudes like yours that have the country in a poor state. People just doing enough and never going beyond what is expected of them.

That posters comparisons were brilliant. So many people have been picking false utopian aspects from different countries and trying to compare them to Ireland. They're just fooling themselves.

Just because someone earns mimimum wage does not make them a lazy bas**rd!

baldymac

No i did not, and shame on anyone who has

irjudge

lividduck wrote: »

"Would you pay a charge if you were unhappy with the service?" asks big Phil
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hogan-wont-pay-penthouse-charge-3067684.html

constitutionus

Noreen1 wrote: »

Some up to date info.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0331/breaking1.html

Almost 800,000 properties had been registered for the household charge by 11pm bringing to almost half the proportion of property owners who have paid.
According to a statement from the Local Government Management Agency the charge has raised €61.5 million to date.
Included in the 798,957 households deemed to have paid are 12,677 properties registered for waivers and 89,000 postal applications which have yet to be processed.

Says it all really. Among those deemed to have paid are 12,677 registered for waivers, and 89,000 not yet processed, hence no-one has any idea how many of them will be registered for waivers.

61.5 million is 615,000 people who have paid by 00.02 this morning - with a further 89,000, a percentage of whom will be exempt - and it's anyones guess how many.

Either way, 615,000 who have paid by the deadline does not equal 798,957. Proof, if it were needed, that the compliance rates have been exaggerated by the "Yes" camp.

From an international perspective:

http://www.bostonherald.com/business/general/view.bg?articleid=1061121264&srvc=business&position=recent

DUBLIN — Debt-mired Ireland is facing a revolt over its new property tax.
The government said less than half of the country’s 1.6 million households paid the charge by Saturday’s deadline to avoid penalties. And about 5,000 marched in protest against the annual conference of Prime Minister Enda Kenny’s Fine Gael party.

It would appear that the Americans do not view the imposition of the charge as a roaring success............

Ya gotta remember the day in it .

RTE may not mean it but its a hell of an April fools day joke !

The Crab

I didn't go from 30k to 100k. I was making the point that other users think people on anything less than that are lazy. How dare anyone say all minimum wage workers are lazy. I know plenty on minimum wage who are very hard working but never got the chances in life.

To the user who says very few talented people would be left in the country. There are solutions to that problem.

I make no apologies for being extremist. I'm died in the wool communist. The sad thing is you don't realise your own extremities, naturally the opposite side to me but what you're basically suggesting is poor people equate to lazy people and deserve to struggle through life. That's extremist in any language.

ericsinjun

The Crab wrote: »

Your wife earns more than ten grand a month yet she only pays 4.5k in income tax? Sorry but that's why the country is in the state its in. There should be a level considered decent enough to live on, say 30,000 per annum and anything above that gets taxed at 100%. Exactly what do you need 5.5k a month for? Luxurious living, certainly not basic living. I've never heard such a right wing view. My wife is so talented she earns great money so to hell with everyone else.

I also have experience of the UK and know for example that whilst the NHS is not perfect at least it exists and you don't have to pay sixty quid to take a sick child to a gp who looks at him/her for ten seconds. No the UK is not a utopia, I pointed out it wasn't but you ignored that. But I'd say living in Ireland on 155k is a lot easier than living in the UK on 34k.

If you read what he said, that 4.5 grand is per month, totalling 50 grand per year. Cherrypicking eh?

MagicSean

lividduck wrote: »

Just because someone earns mimimum wage does not make them a lazy bas**rd!

If someone spends their life in minimum wage jobs then there is something wrong with them. Either they don't do enough to earn a raise or they aren't good enough to get that better job.

The Crab

ericsinjun wrote: »

If you read what he said, that 4.5 grand is per month, totalling 50 grand per year. Cherrypicking eh?

What part of 5.5k a month did you miss in my post?

And people who are in minimum wage jobs have something wrong with them? The user who posted that is a disgrace.

phil1nj

lugha wrote: »

Well we seem to have moved on from sheep and it would appear than hypocrisy is likely to be the theme of today’s proceedings.

So a simple question for the “no” side. Are you one of the vast majority who think corrupt politicians should be taken to task for breaking the laws of the land? And why is it not hypocrisy when you are prepared to break the law yourself?

(Oh, and you cannot use “this law is not fair” argument as you don’t accept that argument from Alastair. Cause that would just be … well you know. )

You seemed to have missed the point of my post. A certain poster on here tried to take the high moral ground and claimed that they were not guilty of any hypocritical posts on this thread. Said poster was badly caught out and refused to accept it (typical MO). I don't think I've made any hypocritical calls or statements myself (please feel to correct me if you think otherwise).

The vast majority of my posts concerned questiOns around property tax as a wealth tax (for my own education more than anything else). If some other poster paints a target on their back by making conflicting posts in AH they will be called on it.

irjudge

The Crab wrote: »

To the user who says very few talented people would be left in the country. There are solutions to that problem.

Genuinely interested in what those solutions are?

Wibbs

alfa beta wrote:

At the end of the day I hold by the simple logic that we as a country currently borrow more than we take in (Nothing to do with baknks etc) and that needs to change. How? a more sustainable tax base. Necessary evil imo. And a more sensible spending structure - wouldn't it be great if all county councils were abolished and we just had provincial councils.....here's to dreaming, but hey, you never know!

I agree, we do need to change, however the part in bold is my problem with this tax and others coming down the line. True sums it up well;

true wrote: »

Fix the bucket before you ask me to throw more water in to it.

Exactly. A goodly proportion of this countries public services are run spectacularly badly with enormous wastage. This is not the usual and boring attack on PS workers themselves BTW, more the entire environment, though some sections need to cop on too. The problem is if we don't fix this leaky bucket then this 100 quid tax will be pissed up against the wall as per usual. Then next year they'll bring out a more "equitable" tax, IE it'll go up again. Until we're paying 500 quid a year or more and still it'll be pissed up against the wall. The water charge will be the same. Rinse and repeat. To extend True's analogy, I'll happily pay for patches for the bucket, but I'm not gonna pay for more holes. Fix the bucket of fúck right off.

The Crab wrote: »

I make no apologies for being extremist. I'm died in the wool communist.

Yea now there's an ideology that works in the real world. In any event as an ideology it's just as subjective and me fein as something like Libertarianism. You tend to get few rich Communists and few poor Libertarians. Well beyond middle class students who think Che is cool in the former and dope smokers "free the weed" types in the latter. An equitable society lays somewhere in the middle as should ideology. Give me Idea-ology any day and consign isms to the dustbin of history.

The sad thing is you don't realise your own extremities, naturally the opposite side to me but what you're basically suggesting is poor people equate to lazy people and deserve to struggle through life. That's extremist in any language

Eh I doubt that was their intention. It would certainly not be mine anyway. The fact is no matter how equitable a society you have you will also always have tiers in that society. There has never been a society where this was not the case. The thing an equitable society requires as a given is the ability to migrate through those tiers if an individual chooses to and works at it.

km79

What were the final figures for amount of people who paid the charge ?