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Electric Car Charge Points
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Im fairly EV agnostic, but we are already past that point. While the movie is set in the future, its a 2003 design study. Even Audi have moved well on with the 2013 R8 e-Tron, a real car in everything but actually being release.Until an EV looks like and can go like the car in I-Robot,then you are all living in a dream world.You really all are.
In I-Robot, thats clearly a TT with a terrible bodykit. The Tesla Model S already looks better IMO, is available and also outperforms that car.
The Fisker Karma looks nicer again, but doesnt quite have the range (or fast charging) of the Tesla. It does have the 400hp / 950ft/lbs torque though as well as an ICE to continously charge the battery pack (like a "Diesel" train does it).
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Deleted User wrote: »Does anyone know if hotels will allow you to charge if you are not staying there but want a refill ? I suppose if you were having lunch or dinner it would be fine ?
Now I would love to see chargers around Wicklow :-)
B&B owners take note also.
My understanding at present is that the Hotel ones etc.. are for customer use, so dinner, cuppa, resident... it's how they make it worth their while having - can't really fault that.Matt Simis wrote: »However the fact you and a handful of "extremely dedicated" enthusiasts can cover larger distances with a planned out route ... does not prove what you think it does. Given time one could use a horse to cover the same distance in a similarly "un-modern" inconvenienced trip.
Ya see - If you want to rush everywhere, then of course, you're correct. But the point in itself simply means that we have differing attitutes to the journey. It has very little to do with the means.Matt Simis wrote: »you have blindly traded freedom of movement for what exactly? Cheapness of operation?
Apart from the "blindly" part, the above is far more correct than I believe you intended it to be. There's a compromise to be made yes, but it's nowhere near as profound as you appear to believe.
The only place I can't get too and from with ease right now is Achill, and that's going to change pretty shortly too. You have to factor in charge stops on long journeys, yes, but that's a pretty small compromise as I see it.
...but then again... I'm not in a rush everywhere.Matt Simis wrote: »Thats one step above public transport, limited to pre-routed destinations and equally frugal. You shouldnt be comparing EVs to Cars, you should compare them to Buses and Trains.
...oh come off it will you - there was actually some proper debatable content to your post up until this statement. :rolleyes:Matt Simis wrote: »You fairness, again, you need to put your reality hat on here, there are 192 cars sold in 3 years, presumably only 150 in actual operation, such a small number not only is totally insignificant in drawing in anything at all to an area, but clearly doesnt warrant the multimillion Euro freeride the tax payer is providing you in charging infrastructure, lost Pay and Display parking, VRT and tax breaks and assorted kickbacks.
Again, you're incorrect - but primarily because you're not looking at the bigger picture. EV's aren't just about pushing the green agenda. They're about reforming the entire ESB grid profile, making it far more efficient to run.
There are very good reasons why they are desirable to have in the mix, very few of which harp back to CO2 emissions.Matt Simis wrote: »I think one day they will make a compelling argument, but I think that form will be in a home-charged 600km range half price Tesla Model S type thing, not a routes planned around public charging spots fiasco of today. Sadly when that day arrives, the EV gravy train will definitely be over and you will be paying vastly more for "fuel", car, tax, VRT as they will be classed the same as any other car.
I think one day all of the above will come to pass yes - however, it's entirely, demonstrably true, that absolutely none of it is a requirement. (apart from the demise of the "gravy train" but until that happens, I'll happily spend my "inconvenience money" on something other than petrol and with a great big grin on my face too.
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extremetaz wrote: »My understanding at present is that the Hotel ones etc.. are for customer use, so dinner, cuppa, resident... it's how they make it worth their while having - can't really fault that.
Ya see - If you want to rush everywhere, then of course, you're correct. But the point in itself simply means that we have differing attitutes to the journey. It has very little to do with the means.
Apart from the "blindly" part, the above is far more correct than I believe you intended it to be. There's a compromise to be made yes, but it's nowhere near as profound as you appear to believe.
The only place I can't get too and from with ease right now is Achill, and that's going to change pretty shortly too. You have to factor in charge stops on long journeys, yes, but that's a pretty small compromise as I see it.
...but then again... I'm not in a rush everywhere.
...oh come off it will you - there was actually some proper debatable content to your post up until this statement. :rolleyes:
Again, you're incorrect - but primarily because you're not looking at the bigger picture. EV's aren't just about pushing the green agenda. They're about reforming the entire ESB grid profile, making it far more efficient to run.
There are very good reasons why they are desirable to have in the mix, very few of which harp back to CO2 emissions.
I think one day all of the above will come to pass yes - however, it's entirely, demonstrably true, that absolutely none of it is a requirement. (apart from the demise of the "gravy train" but until that happens, I'll happily spend my "inconvenience money" on something other than petrol and with a great big grin on my face too. )
Well said.
Matt Simis says that electric cars mean less freedom, but in reality it's the very high price of petrol and diesel that is creating the restriction, we have cut down greatly on our weekend trips because the cost of getting to work is so much. An e.v would allow us the freedom to drive at the weekends again and spend our money in the area we go helping to create jobs and helps jobs be kept where spending a significant amount of your income on fuel only makes you travel less spending less in the local economy damaging business in the long run.
To me the savings on fuel mean I could buy a new car rather than spend my money on fuel and maintenance.
17500 Euros in 5 years is an incredible amount of money to spend on fuel even in a 60 mpg+ car. That's more than the new price of the Renault Zoe.That price also excludes maintenance on my current car. And the extra car tax. Which currently is 384 Euro's or something close. Which is another 1100 Euro's in that 5 years. Add another 2250 Euro's for basic maintenacne which increases as the car gets older. That's a saving of nearly 20 grand over 5 years.
However with regard to the Zoe there is battery rental and electricity costs which with my mileage per year add up to around 9500 over the 5 years, the electricity being just 2200 over the 5 years.
If you buy the Leaf then that 20 grand saving - 2200 for the electricity goes straight towards the car, meaning the 18 grand or so you save goes to the car, after the 5 years you buy another.
That's all based on my mileage and fuel consumption in a 60 mpg car, the savings are much more if you are coming from a 40-6y0 mpg car, that's real mpg not trip mpg.
When you sell Zoe the driver takes a lease out on the battery where as the leaf owner would probably be facing a replacement, the car will still have plenty of life.
I think attitudes should change in Ireland in regard to leasing, in the U.S you can lease a Leaf for as little as 180 Euro's per month.
The Leaf in the U.S costs around 20,000 Euro's and Americans moan about the price of the car, mad!0 -
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Matt Simis wrote: »You write very long posts and perhaps this got lost, but are you really suggesting what you would spend 20 to 30k on a car to save money?
Id like to see these maths in detail as I fail to see how this is adding up.. a used 2 grand diesel something plus 14k in fuel would easily trump these figures over the same period. Infact my calculator (http://fuel.netcessible.com/FuelEuro/FuelEuro.htm) shows that EUR14k in Diesel gets you around 160,000 KM of driving or 600km a week. And you can drive a diesel anywhere anytime, not just to Dingle and Trim repeatedly.. whats the monetary value on freedom of choice again?
If you are trying to make the case for EVs on frugility.. well you cant. This is pretty much what the IT article suggested too, the dream only works if the cars were vastly cheaper. You want an EV, thats fine, but you want it for the sake of wanting it, it doesnt make sense in a logical manner (no more than my V12 ICE daily driver does).
On top of this, you have to pay for (and account for) the increased Electric usage (a rate thats going up all the time), car tax for EVs is definitely going to sky-rocket over a 5year period too, its tolerated now only cause they are so unpopular. Its a double edged sword for the early EV adopter, buy into it and its ownership costs increase per purchase at a national level.
Aside from the loaded pretension and smugness, there are no legs in this argument at all as you seem to be unaware that the petro-fuel you are "saving" personally has over 70% of its pricing routed in taxation. That taxation pays for the schools, roads, grants to business, grants to EV buyers, basically spread everywhere. Thats the social aspect, the commercial one: The fact our infastructue is setup to service ICE vehicles means that you also rob the Mechanic of business, the Petrol station, the bread company that supplies the rolls in the petrol station, the other local businesses around the petrol station that benefit from its consumer encatchment. The "cost" these represents to all walks of life is a league above whatever you think our communal "benefit" is to you driving an EV.
Im not going to argue this over and over, but buying EVs currently is a net loss to society via massively lost tax income (on fueling. purchase etc) and business (all reasons above). You either accept that or pretend to have your cake and eat it (its so cheap it inhibits spending but somehow also promotes business).
Jesus Matt, you say I post long ?
The tax on petrol and diesel currently isn't going to the banks, schools, roads, hospitals where it is badly needed, grant it probably some is, but most of outr tax income is going to pay welfare and the banks.
The garages and so on can install fast chargers and I'll gladly go in and buy my coffee as I do when I get Petrol once a week.
The loss of tax on E.V's currently is nothing but with the introduction of property taxes when it comes into full swing in a few years will make up and probably more for that along with water charges. I'm not anti tax, but I'm against taxing the crap out of transport, it's not a luxury it's essential to get to work. For me anyway. I'd gladly cycle 20 kms a day to work, or even take the leccy bike, no problem as it's way more fun.
My calculations if you read them are fairly good as I've calculated it out many times.
I'll do this again for the last time. it costs me 65 Euro's a week in Petrol over a year is 3250 Euro's a year .x5 years I would have the car =16,250 Euro's. Maintenance is around 200 -250 on the Prius twice a year =500 a year or 2500 after 5 years. That's 18,750 after 5 years. Road tax = 380 for the Prius being a 07 saving 220 euro's a year or 1100 after the 5 years that's a grand total of 19,850 Euro's.
Battery rental costs 120 a month ( not final yet ) that's 3000 over 5 years - electricity would cost 2250 over the 5 years so that and battery rental cost 5,250 - the 18,750 = 13,500 saved over ICE car in total.
SO I could have zoe for free after 5 years with trade in, or choose to buy a 2k car and maintain it over 20-25K miles a year and pay the costs in maintenance car tax and petrol or diesel. If that's what people want I've no problem with that. I'm simply pointing out what you get from going electric over an ICE car.
You could choose to buy a Leaf with no battery rental (very unwise if doing high mileage ) or simply rent it in the zoe and after the 5 years sell the car or take a new lease out on a reconditioned battery, I highly doubt they will have a new battery on offer and there surely will be more range in 2018.
Sure tax will go up no doubt but also on normal cars keeping the gap, or greater.
Remember a car that does 40 mpg on my commute of 84 miles a day will spend another 1000 a year in fuel. another 5 grand after 5 years.40 mpg= 9,6 L of fuel per day 47.66 a week x 1.65 per litre.
Phew that was a long one! :eek:0 -
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Matt Simis wrote: »Thats nice, we could all use the exact same argument tomorrow and refuse to pay taxes. I could be spending my current EUR1600 motor tax in hotels you say?
I wasnt bringing motor tax (and VRT and grants into this), you guys did, its just annoying to see you try to justify the free ride you are getting along the lines that its going to benefit society versus everyone else who is paying more directly and paying your way too.
Speaking for myself, I never mentioned VRT or any of the others above and I'm certainly not advocating the non-payment of legislated taxes.
Petrol/diesel however is not a legislated tax, it's a consumer based tax, I don't consume them so I don't pay it - the money I would be spending on it however, is recirculated into the domestic economy regardless.
Furthermore, if my attempts at countering your debate have been construed as attempts to "justify the free ride" I'm getting, then I will attempt a clarification of the issue.
I bought my EV because of the "free ride" (quite literally) which it presently provides me. Far from attempting to justify the mechanism by which this situation has arisen, what I have attempted to do here is to highlight that it exists.
It's existance is, no doubt, transient and will pass when the number of EV's reaches a sufficient percentage of the national fleet but for now, I'm entirely happy to take advantage of it (FFS that's the very reason for the existance of it!) - and if a love of paying taxes is what's preventing you from doing so, then suit yourself, but don't demonise me for it. I'm one of the folk who's actually doing what Europe and the Govt. want me to do! (...ok... now I feel a little dirty
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Again however, I will reiterate, that whether or not you deem the present incentives towards EV's to be justifyable, EV's *are* a very desirable component in the transport mix for a vast number of reasons.
At present, the government, in conjuction with the EU and with funded assistance from the FP7 framework has deemed that the investment required in order to incentivise the uptake of EV's is worthwhile and will pay dividends in the future. If you're not happy with that situation then I suggest you write a strongly worded letter to someone involved with the FP7 framework and express how dissatisfied you are that EV owners aren't as miserable as you are - and explaining why you're so against the notion of joining them rather than beating them. 0 -
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