Electric Car Charge Points

This is an E-Mail I got from John Whelan of E.S.B Ecars.


All of the ESB’s public AC chargers (excluding some legacy points installed 2 years ago) are 3-phase 22kW points. This means that they can charge a 3-phase electric vehicle in around 1 hour (as most vehicles have a battery size between 22-24kWr).

Note that the Nissan Leaf does not have a 3-phase charger. The vehicle can only take a single-phase 3kW charge from the ESB’s 3-phase 22kW points. Therefore it will take the Nissan Leaf approximately 7.5 hours to charge from 0-100% at a public AC charge point. The Leaf can only fast charge when using a DC charge point.

The Renault Zoe (and next version of the Fluence and Kangoo) will have a 3-phase charger and a will be able to charge in 1 hour from the public AC points.

Regards,

John Whelan
ESB ecars

This is a game changer for me because I had absolutely no idea the on street chargers could charge so fast.

I always thought they were closer to home supply capable, something around 3kw.

So I could charge zoe when she comes out in an hour from 0-100% from an on street charger. But mostly will take under an hour because you will never drive to 0%.

I'm incredibly impressed that the E.S.B chose to do it right, I don't think most of the U.K chargers are that powerful !!!

Sesshoumaru

Myself and a few other like minded EV owners have met with ESB ecars on more than one occasion. That's how I knew about the 3 phase public chargers. Northern Ireland is also going for the same specification level for public chargers. Knowing what I know, I do think ESB ecars is doing a good job, despite the delays in getting the charging infrastructure out there. They have to plan for more than just the Nissan Leaf, they have access to R&D information before Joe Public knows about it. So they have to keep one eye on what they know will be released in the next few years and plan accordingly.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2009-10-13.284.0

The Memorandum of Understanding concluded by the ESB and my Department with Renault-Nissan is designed to increase the level of knowledge available on the infrastructure requirements of electric vehicles and ensure that Ireland has the opportunity to be one of the first countries to be supplied with both Renault and Nissan electric cars. This represents a major opportunity for Ireland. Under the Memorandum of Understanding ESB Networks will be able to avail of data on developments in electric vehicles which will inform our consideration of optimum infrastructure, support mechanisms and the potential benefits accruing.

http://www.completecar.ie/news/article/414/Toyota-introduces-Prius-Plug-In-Hybrid-to-Ireland

Here is also a link on an MOU signed with Toyota. Below another link that doesn't mention specific names, but does mention signing more MOU's

http://www.handling-network.com/irish-electric-transport-debate-hots-up/

In his address Minister Cuffe stated that in recent months the Government has signed a second memorandum of understanding with a major manufacturer to promote the development of the electric vehicle industry in Ireland. “This clearly demonstrates our commitment to strengthen and develop Ireland’s international position as a first-mover for this innovative sector and a pioneer in cleaner, greener transport,” said the Minister. “We are fully committed to the roll-out of alternative transport options, and I have made this a priority issue during my term as Minister for Sustainable Transport,” he added.

KTRIC

I love the look of the Zoe but I couldn't imagine connecting one to a public charge point and leaving it. Surely it would be open to vandalism etc.

There's one of these charge points outside the shopping centre from the Dawn of the Dead in Crumlin. I'd be weary parking a LR Defender there let alone a dainty little EV with a cable hanging out of it.

I think anyone foolish to mess with an ev cable carrying 22kw should think again,

There is no coming back from a shock of that kind, it could be their last mistake!

EDIT--- any cables found to be defective or even looks defective, report it immediately, even stick a note on the charger for others to see it. Never use a charger with a defective cable. You will die if that current hits you!

I'm sure it is not going to be a problem, I'm sure they will be inspected!

Our man in Havana

So how much money does it cost to charge up a car?

Lon Dubh

I think I read on the Renault website that the chargers couldn't be disconnected by someone else, but I wonder if the equipment could still be damaged?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I think anyone foolish to mess with an ev cable carrying 22kw should think again,

There is no coming back from a shock of that kind, it could be their last mistake!

Presumably they'd have to cater for the event though, H&S and all, for example a mobility scooter / child could get tangled up in the cable and damage it

Lon Dubh

Deleted User wrote: »

I think anyone foolish to mess with an ev cable carrying 22kw should think again,

There is no coming back from a shock of that kind, it could be their last mistake!

That is a good point! I suppose if people are hell bent on damaging a car they will damage it in some way no matter what type it is anyway.

Our man in Havana

Lon Dubh wrote: »

I think I read on the Renault website that the chargers couldn't be disconnected by someone else, but I wonder if the equipment could still be damaged?

I would imagine the copper fairies would have a go at taking the cable regardless.

afatbollix

Do you think any car clubs will be set up in Dublin beside these things? So you could rent one for a hour or so? Like Dublin bikes only for cars?

Ive seen car clubs in London of petrol cars and vans but I think it would work better with EV cars.

afatbollix

Lon Dubh wrote: »

That is a good point! I suppose if people are hell bent on damaging a car they will damage it in some way no matter what type it is anyway.

They said the same about Dublin bikes. Theres not as much scum about as people thought..

Sesshoumaru

afatbollix wrote: »

Do you think any car clubs will be set up in Dublin beside these things? So you could rent one for a hour or so? Like Dublin bikes only for cars?

Ive seen car clubs in London of petrol cars and vans but I think it would work better with EV cars.

You might find this interesting!

http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/2113651/paris-electic-car-sharing-scheme-sparks-life

Bruthal

Deleted User wrote: »

I think anyone foolish to mess with an ev cable carrying 22kw should think again,

There is no coming back from a shock of that kind, it could be their last mistake!

The current a cable is carrying will have no bearing on the shock received by contact with such a cable.

The danger in such cables is if they are short circuited.


Being 3 phase, it will be 400v though, which is dangerous in itself if contated. But again, if its 1kw or 100kw, the shock a person would receive is the same.

They will have RCD protection anyway, which will prevent serious shocks, unless the person is unlucky enough to contact between 2 phases only, which is extremely unlikely.

Still, a vandal might be in for a nasty shock alright.

RandomAccess

Is the Leaf charger upgradeable to this? Seems like a bit of an oversight or was it a carryover from the Japanese market?

RandomAccess

RandomAccess wrote: »

Is the Leaf charger upgradeable to this? Seems like a bit of an oversight or was it a carryover from the Japanese market?

Afaik the leaf charger is not upgradeable, it would probably cost a lot anyway.

I think it's more to do with the fact the leaf can accept 50 kw of DC power, and charge from 0-80% in 30 mins. While Zoe can't.

Maybe they saw no need at the time, I think it's more to do with how quickly the technology is progressing. The chargers are getting smaller, and the inverters built into the motors, as in the case of the Mitsubishi I-MeV.

Soon the motors will be in the wheels themselves.

Mr Benevolent

Speaking of electric cars, the Renault Twizy seems like a good bet for city driving for a couple with no kids. Really wish they included proper doors though. Realistically you'd have to wear waterproof gear all the time.

Bandara

Am I right in reading that the Leaf takes over SEVEN hours to charge from an ESB point ?

Our man in Havana

How does one pay for using these charge points and what is the rough cost of a charge?

eringobragh

Our man in Havana wrote: »

How does one pay for using these charge points and what is the rough cost of a charge?

The tax payer funds them AFAIK

Our man in Havana

eringobragh wrote: »

The tax payer funds them AFAIK

So free electric for electric car owners?

Bruthal

Our man in Havana wrote: »

How does one pay for using these charge points and what is the rough cost of a charge?

If you were to charge up 24kwh`s at home, that would be about €4.50

Confab

Confab wrote: »

Speaking of electric cars, the Renault Twizy seems like a good bet for city driving for a couple with no kids. Really wish they included proper doors though. Realistically you'd have to wear waterproof gear all the time.

Afaik doors are an option, not sure if they are full doors ?

I wouldn't be surprised if aftermarket kits become available!

robbie7730

robbie7730 wrote: »

If you were to charge up 24kwh`s at home, that would be about €4.50

At night it would cost around 1.80, as you would have a night meter installed!

On street I've no idea. But I would imagine its cheaper at night too ?

Bruthal

Deleted User wrote: »

At night it would cost around 1.80, as you would have a night meter installed!

Thats true. Its a little more expensive for the standing charge, and daytime units with that setup, making it hard to be worth while for most, having to move daytime loads to night.

But would be hugely worth while when chaging a car every night.

Our man in Havana

Our man in Havana wrote: »

So free electric for electric car owners?

I don't think so, it was in the beginning but ai thought they were charging now?

eringobragh

Theres one beside merrion sq with no coin, swipes, etc... just some sockets for the cars so I assume it is still free

creedp

eringobragh wrote: »

Theres one beside merrion sq with no coin, swipes, etc... just some sockets for the cars so I assume it is still free

Could you plug in your electric kettle to have a nice cup of [free] tea or maybe your ipad ... I think its bizarre that the taxpayer is funding free electricity for EV's and yet thousands are being cut off by the ESB for the non payment of electricity bills .. talk about a perverted sense of priorities!

eringobragh

eringobragh wrote: »

The tax payer funds them AFAIK

I would rather the tax payer pay for energy that is generated in Ireland to help generate more Irish jobs than taxpayers money go to the banks that abused their powers and get away with it!

lizzybradbury

Our man in Havana wrote: »

So how much money does it cost to charge up a car?

I wanna ask this again as I didn't see an answer - How much does it cost on average to run an electric car imagining that you are doing normal driving to work?

lizzybradbury

p.s. Also, what are you to do while waiting for your car to charge - Is this a new gap in the consumer market? Will companies create entire shopping centres and amusement parks around electric hook-up points....ingenious

Hammertime

Hammertime wrote: »

Am I right in reading that the Leaf takes over SEVEN hours to charge from an ESB point ?

From 0% yes, But it can be charged from a 50kw DC charger in 30 mins.

Really though you are never going to allow your Leaf to reach 0 and will be at a charger long before this, so if using a fast charger I would imagine 15-20 mins would give you enough range to reach your destination!

As regards the 3kw charging from home, same thing. Most charging will probably take 4 hours or less.

The 2013 Leaf is getting a 6kw charger, so from home you can charge twice as fast.

Zoe has not got the fast dc charging, it would have been nice to have it included for emergencies, or for the times the sun comes out at the weekend and you decide to pack up the car and head off.

Still 20kw will charge it in under an hour from the street charger, and I suppose I never take a trip to Galway, Westport or where ever without stopping at some sites along the way or for a meal. I like to relax and enjoy the drive too!

If only B&B's could get chargers installed and give them grants to do it would be great, seems like an awful waste if you can't charge in a B&B at night.

Take note B5B owners, if e.v owners have the choice of a B&B with a charger or without, guess which one they will stay ?

lizzybradbury

lizzybradbury wrote: »

p.s. Also, what are you to do while waiting for your car to charge - Is this a new gap in the consumer market? Will companies create entire shopping centres and amusement parks around electric hook-up points....ingenious

They are installed in towns and cities where they are already places to shop!

eringobragh

Deleted User wrote: »

I would rather the tax payer pay for energy that is generated in Ireland to help generate more Irish jobs than taxpayers money go to the banks that abused their powers and get away with it!

I'm at a loss here: How an EV owner getting free handouts from the state generates jobs??

More like you want to have your cake and eat it. No such thing as a free lunch I'm afraid and that'll be apparent soon enough for EV owners

lizzybradbury

lizzybradbury wrote: »

I wanna ask this again as I didn't see an answer - How much does it cost on average to run an electric car imagining that you are doing normal driving to work?

OK, well in regards the Nissan Leaf. It costs about 1.60 for a 0-100% full charge. That will take you 65-75 miles at 60-65 mph maybe more depending on weather. You will get more miles if you are not on the motorway all the time.

So I calculated it out that in my old A4 TDI it cost about 96 Euro's to fill a year ago for 600 miles, in the Leaf that same mileage would cost you about 12 Euro's

The Leaf has a 22 kw/hr battery but uses about 20kw/hrs so night electricity costs about 8 cent so 8 cent x 20kw/hrs =1.60

Charge during the day would cost 3.20 amazingly cheap!

You can install solar and drive almost for free, if you are to compare it to petrol or diesel, if doing 20k miles a year the payback would be about 6-7 years for a 5.5 kw/p solar system. Generally solar panels last 30+ years with 80% capacity or so after 20 years. Energy costs only go one way!

The cost of solar has dropped considerably in the last 7 years, making it cheaper by far, than wind!

Sesshoumaru

creedp wrote: »

Could you plug in your electric kettle to have a nice cup of [free] tea or maybe your ipad ... I think its bizarre that the taxpayer is funding free electricity for EV's and yet thousands are being cut off by the ESB for the non payment of electricity bills .. talk about a perverted sense of priorities!

ESB ecars give you a card with a chip in it when you register with them. You place the card near a reader on the charging post and then a J1772 port pops open. Similar type technology would be in the Leapcard or London Oyster card. So unless you have a ESB ecars card and a kettle with a J1772 port, no you can't have a free cup of tea... and it wouldn't be a free cup of tea even if you did have a J1772 to 3 pin socket converter as the charging posts don't supply teabags either

As for cost, this is a trial system! EV owners are helping ESB ecars trial this system. Up until now there have been only a handful of these charging posts and possibly even fewer EV's on the road. The payment system goes live in June, at that point whatever electricity you use will either be deducted from a pay as you go type account you setup or it can be added to your domestic electricity bill (any supplier). The cost to ESB ecars of the free charging (test subjects testing the new system for them) would be quite minuscule. €100 so far maybe? Why not ask them if you're curious?

creedp

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

As for cost, this is a trial system! EV owners are helping ESB ecars trial this system. Up until now there have been only a handful of these charging posts and possibly even fewer EV's on the road. The payment system goes live in June, at that point whatever electricity you use will either be deducted from a pay as you go type account you setup or it can be added to your domestic electricity bill (any supplier). The cost to ESB ecars of the free charging (test subjects testing the new system for them) would be quite minuscule. €100 so far maybe? Why not ask them if you're curious?

No I'm not that curious at all. I understand now that this is a trial period and after that there will be charges for the use of this service which is fair enough. What I still can't get my dinosaur head around is why EV owners should be able to commute around the country without having to pay the punitive motor taxes levied on other categories of car users? I know the EV is seen by some as the saviour of the polar bear and reducing our dependance on foreign oil [but increasing it on Russian gas, maybe that's not as bad] but the last time I looked an EV is still a motor vehicle and in my opinion should be subject to the motor taxes, albeit maybe at reduced rates, as all other vehicle users. Because we are worried about CO2 we gave diesel cars reductions in Motor Tax/VRT based on their CO2 emmissions. However, no one called for duty free motor diesel or free Motor Tax. I would consider the same should apply to EV's. Recognising their contribution to reducing dependance on oil, etc, etc, they should be subject to a lower fuel duty [but not a duty free fuel] in this case electricity. Applying the same rate of duty as on domestic electricity doesn't seems to cut it with me given the motor vehicle's status as a luxury item in Irish taxation policy.

Wossack

they are subject to motor taxes

157e a year afaik

Bandara

Mad_Lad wrote: »

Hammertime wrote: »

Am I right in reading that the Leaf takes over SEVEN hours to charge from an ESB point ?

If only B&B's could get chargers installed and give them grants to do it would be great, seems like an awful waste if you can't charge in a B&B at night.

Take note B5B owners, if e.v owners have the choice of a B&B with a charger or without, guess which one they will stay ?

The amount of EV drivers is so insignificant that tying up a valuable car park space with a ten grand charging point (what the ESB charge for one) is utter madness, even with fifty times the amount of them it would be madness.

If they're serious about this they should do a offer charging points to service stations, shopping centre carparks, the ESB should be paying people to put them in, as it's utterly commerically 100% not viable, hence the complete lack of interest from service stations.

I'd love to have one, but I can't afford to lose that much by putting one in

I'd be better off putting in a hot tub and hoping the bikinis draw the customers in

Sesshoumaru

creedp wrote: »

No I'm not that curious at all. I understand now that this is a trial period and after that there will be charges for the use of this service which is fair enough. What I still can't get my dinosaur head around is why EV owners should be able to commute around the country without having to pay the punitive motor taxes levied on other categories of car users? I know the EV is seen by some as the saviour of the polar bear and reducing our dependance on foreign oil [but increasing it on Russian gas, maybe that's not as bad] but the last time I looked an EV is still a motor vehicle and in my opinion should be subject to the motor taxes, albeit maybe at reduced rates, as all other vehicle users. Because we are worried about CO2 we gave diesel cars reductions in Motor Tax/VRT based on their CO2 emmissions. However, no one called for duty free motor diesel or free Motor Tax. I would consider the same should apply to EV's. Recognising their contribution to reducing dependance on oil, etc, etc, they should be subject to a lower fuel duty [but not a duty free fuel] in this case electricity. Applying the same rate of duty as on domestic electricity doesn't seems to cut it with me given the motor vehicle's status as a luxury item in Irish taxation policy.

I have to renew my motor tax this month, €160 currently which is the same as any regular car in Tax Band A. As for extra taxes on electricity, that is more complex than you realise. I've posted about this before, but the ESB are investing in building a smart grid in Ireland. Smart grid technology usually incorporates EV's as being part of the grid. As in EV's can charge at night time on excess electricity that would normally be wasted or even wind energy not being used and then during the day it can power your home or be released into the grid generally.

That's not science fiction stuff, that's pretty much current day technology. In Japan you can already buy a home charger that allows you to reverse the flow if you know what I mean and run your house from your car. Last time I checked it was about €6,000 to buy this charger from Nissan.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/03/nissans-leaf-to-home-system-sends-power-back-to-your-house-or/

The Nissan Leaf may look like a car, but it turns out it will soon also be an emergency power generator on wheels. The automaker just took the wraps off its new "Leaf to Home" system in Japan this week, which promises to let you send power stored in the car back to your house in the case of an outage, or even back to the grid (letting you charge the car during off-peak hours and profiting when demand is high, for instance). Of course, that also requires more than your basic charging station (this one ties directly into your home's electricity distribution panel), and it's not quite ready for consumer use just yet -- Nissan expects it to be available in Japan by April of next year.

EV owners could have money going into their account for electricity they send back into the grid during peak hours. I'm not saying EV owners shouldn't pay their fair share, I'm just pointing out it's a little bit more complex than the current energy supply system for ICE cars.

Wossack

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Which is a joke in itself, should be tax free.

much like the diesel rates, if theres enough migration to EV, I'd say they're due to go up rather then down

probably a subject for another thread though..!

eringobragh

eringobragh wrote: »

I'm at a loss here: How an EV owner getting free handouts from the state generates jobs??

More like you want to have your cake and eat it. No such thing as a free lunch I'm afraid and that'll be apparent soon enough for EV owners

The free charging was offered initially until the esb figured out the billing system and have 0 plans to continue offering free electricity afaik!

I don't have an e.v and I probably won't for a few years yet, only because I can't afford it at this time, so I have nothing to benefit from free charging.

But anything that converts people to a more efficient and quieter transport is a good thing as far as I'm concerned!

Hammertime

Hammertime wrote: »

The amount of EV drivers is so insignificant that tying up a valuable car park space with a ten grand charging point (what the ESB charge for one) is utter madness, even with fifty times the amount of them it would be madness.

If they're serious about this they should do a offer charging points to service stations, shopping centre carparks, the ESB should be paying people to put them in, as it's utterly commerically 100% not viable, hence the complete lack of interest from service stations.

I'd love to have one, but I can't afford to lose that much by putting one in

I'd be better off putting in a hot tub and hoping the bikinis draw the customers in

Eah, bog standard home charging chargers are not in the thousands afaik ?

I'm sure if I have the cable to top up that any B&B owner would hardly so no to plugging in in their shed ?

creedp

creedp wrote: »

No I'm not that curious at all. I understand now that this is a trial period and after that there will be charges for the use of this service which is fair enough. What I still can't get my dinosaur head around is why EV owners should be able to commute around the country without having to pay the punitive motor taxes levied on other categories of car users? I know the EV is seen by some as the saviour of the polar bear and reducing our dependance on foreign oil [but increasing it on Russian gas, maybe that's not as bad] but the last time I looked an EV is still a motor vehicle and in my opinion should be subject to the motor taxes, albeit maybe at reduced rates, as all other vehicle users. Because we are worried about CO2 we gave diesel cars reductions in Motor Tax/VRT based on their CO2 emmissions. However, no one called for duty free motor diesel or free Motor Tax. I would consider the same should apply to EV's. Recognising their contribution to reducing dependance on oil, etc, etc, they should be subject to a lower fuel duty [but not a duty free fuel] in this case electricity. Applying the same rate of duty as on domestic electricity doesn't seems to cut it with me given the motor vehicle's status as a luxury item in Irish taxation policy.

Who said C02? I don't give a **** about C02!

I care about eliminating the emissions from transport that actually do harm to our health, and actually kill people!

This C02 crap is the biggest scam on earth, and we will find that out soon enough and if people did their research they will find out that the globe is not that warm now at all compared to any point since satellites (the only reliable source of data) started recording temp data in 1979!

People are brainwashed totally from the media rubbish, and the BBC should be ashamed with some of the crap that they spew out!

The main point to people is the FACT electric cars offer the cheapest way of driving, that's all that most people care about.

I care about the environment, but I don't care about C02, it's a gas that plants and trees love!

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

...............

The main point to people is the FACT electric cars offer the cheapest way of driving, that's all that most people care about....................

We've discussed this "fact" in depth on a recent thread, iirc the diesel Clio was as cheap to run as the electric Zoe when battery rental was considered.

Anan1

Deleted User wrote: »

This C02 crap is the biggest scam on earth, and we will find that out soon enough and if people did their research they will find out that the globe is not that warm now at all compared to any point since satellites (the only reliable source of data) started recording temp data in 1979!

People are brainwashed totally from the media rubbish, and the BBC should be ashamed with some of the crap that they spew out!

That CO2 is a greenhouse gas is accepted by pretty much the entire scientific community. The only reason that anyone still doubts this is that people who stand to lose a lot of money are spending to maintain doubt, in much the same way as the cigarette companies did with cancer.

Bandara

Mad_Lad wrote: »

Hammertime wrote: »

The amount of EV drivers is so insignificant that tying up a valuable car park space with a ten grand charging point (what the ESB charge for one) is utter madness, even with fifty times the amount of them it would be madness.

If they're serious about this they should do a offer charging points to service stations, shopping centre carparks, the ESB should be paying people to put them in, as it's utterly commerically 100% not viable, hence the complete lack of interest from service stations.

I'd love to have one, but I can't afford to lose that much by putting one in

I'd be better off putting in a hot tub and hoping the bikinis draw the customers in

Eah, bog standard home charging chargers are not in the thousands afaik ?

Ehhhh

A proper commerical ESB supplied unit is ten thousand.

You either do it correctly or not at all

Anan1

Anan1 wrote: »

That CO2 is a greenhouse gas is accepted by pretty much the entire scientific community. The only reason that anyone still doubts this is that people who stand to lose a lot of money are spending to maintain doubt, in much the same way as the cigarette companies did with cancer.

NO,

Another thread, for C02

There is a lot of strong evidence to the contrary.

Hammertime

Hammertime wrote: »

Ehhhh

A proper commerical ESB supplied unit is ten thousand.

You either do it correctly or not at all

No I mean the domestic wall box ?

RoverJames

RoverJames wrote: »

We've discussed this "fact" in depth on a recent thread, iirc the diesel Clio was as cheap to run as the electric Zoe when battery rental was considered.

I'm not talking about either car.

I'm talking about the fact electricity is far cheaper to drive on than anything else.

People Don't understand this ?

You got a 30 K golf and a 30 K leaf the leaf is far cheaper to fuel.

You spend 25 k on a golf and 30 k on a leaf and you do 20K miles a year, the leaf works out still cheaper to fuel. And that 5 k would be paid back in 2 years at 20K a year on diesel.

You spend 2 grand on an ice car and 30k on the Leaf the Leaf is still far cheaper to fuel, get it ?

From a saving money point of view it obviously makes sence to buy the ice at 2k, but the leccy is still far cheaper to fuel.

Im not talking saving money here!

o god how many times can I say it.

Right I'm off to work, talk tomorrow folks, or at 1 am