Is the Media Too Soft on Declan Kidney and the Irish Management

molloyjh

Kidney brought both ROG and TOL on at pretty much the same time last week as he did the week before. He wasn't reacting to what was happening in either game because both changes were equally poor in the two completely different games.

He also made those changes earlier than he had been when Murray was on the field in the previous games. He plainly doesn't trust Reddan and he also has an inability to change the scrum-half without also changing the out-half as well. It's madness, it's wrong and it's incredibly frustrating. But we're gonna have to deal with it for another 18 months.

phog

tolosenc wrote: »

Just looking at time given to Reddan, our best scrum half, over the course of the tournament. TOL got more time off the bench in 2 games than Reddan did in 3. But the stats show that, going in to the England game, we had scored 6 tries in 188 minutes with Murray on the field, and 6 tries in 105 minutes with Reddan on the field. (TOL had 1 in 27 minutes - itself interesting as Reddan was never given that much time off teh bench in 1 game).

A try every 31:20 with Murray, and a try every 17:30 with Reddan. 2.55 tries per 80 minutes vs. 4.57 tries per game.

The media should be bashing him for not picking Reddan. Either he has something against our best player in that position and therefore doesn't pick him, which is a reason he should not be in the job, or he genuinely can't see the gulf in class, which is a reason he shouldn't be in the job.

Remind me again the opposition that Reddan was playing against for those games where his try count is best.

How many times did we threaten the try line with Reddan on the field against England? How long was he on for?

Here's more stats for the 3 S/Hs.

Kick Pass Run
Murray 15 143 18
Reddan 15 111 8
O'Leary 4 27 1

.ak

phog wrote: »

Remind me again the opposition that Reddan was playing against for those games where his try count is best.

How many times did we threaten the try line with Reddan on the field against England? How long was he on for?

Here's more stats for the 3 S/Hs.

Kick Pass Run
Murray 15 143 18
Reddan 15 111 8
O'Leary 4 27 1

We definitely looked far more dangerous in the first half with Reddan than in the second with TOL.

tolosenc

phog wrote: »

Remind me again the opposition that Reddan was playing against for those games where his try count is best.

How many times did we threaten the try line with Reddan on the field against England? How long was he on for?

Here's more stats for the 3 S/Hs.

Kick Pass Run
Murray 15 143 18
Reddan 15 111 8
O'Leary 4 27 1

Well, in the Italy game, we scored more points and tries in 20 minutes with Reddan than 60 with Murray, so I guess you don't want me to include that one. And he had but 4 minutes against Wales due to the horrible mismanagement of the team. Both tries against France were solo efforts by Tommy Bowe, so unfair to give Murray any credit for at least the intercept...

Tox56

Statistics can prove anything.

I do think Reddan is better with Sexton than Murray though.

phog

.ak wrote: »

We definitely looked far more dangerous in the first half with Reddan than in the second with TOL.

That wouldnt have been hard but Reddan didn't seem to be the answer either.

tolosenc wrote: »

Well, in the Italy game, we scored more points and tries in 20 minutes with Reddan than 60 with Murray, so I guess you don't want me to include that one. And he had but 4 minutes against Wales due to the horrible mismanagement of the team. Both tries against France were solo efforts by Tommy Bowe, so unfair to give Murray any credit for at least the intercept...

Of course we did, but mostly when we beat the Italians by a comprehensive score we do so later in the game. Hence Reddan's stats would look better.

irishbucsfan

Reddan was Irelands best scrum half this year, quite simply. He is not perfect but he is our best option at 9 until Murray proves himself capable of playing at the pace required to give our backs a chance. Hopefully Murray gets fit soon so he can start working on it. Last thing we need is a long string of injuries for the lad.

rrpc

phog wrote: »

That wouldnt have been hard but Reddan didn't seem to be the answer either.

As I said above, it wasn't one of his better days because of English forward dominance. How well he was doing in the circumstances was highlighted by the stark contrast to when TOL came on.

Of course we did, but mostly when we beat the Italians by a comprehensive score we do so later in the game. Hence Reddan's stats would look better.

That's just Kidneyspeak and was exactly what he trotted out after the match when it was patently obvious that slow ball from rucks was giving the Italians time to align their defence.

Don't let this descend into another of those stupid parochial provincial 'debates' that bedevil this forum. Reddan is not the long term answer, and somebody needs to step up to claim the Irish No.9 berth in the next couple of years or we're in serious trouble.

Murray had only ever played with ROG for Munster before he started for Ireland with Sexton. The two out halves couldn't be more different in the way they play the game, but essentially quick ball and quick tempo isn't what ROG needs as he plays away from the gainline. Sexton, Keatley and Madigan play a much closer in game and thrive on quick ball.

Murray will get to play that game more often with Munster as time goes on and will surely up his tempo. He also needs to pick his moments to break more carefully because for all the breaks he made with the ball for Ireland, he made precious little yardage and got pinned far too many times.

Right now he is the future, he justs needs to work on some aspects of his game.

funky penguin

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0321/1224313641311.html

I'm a little surprised at Quinlan. His articles have usually been excellent reads, but this one fails to impress in my opinion.

There are some nice sections on the psychology of the scrum, but it seems he lays all the blame at the feet of the players, with a brief mention of leadership issues.

Not once does he mention the management team.

Is this because he's still freshly retired and feels like players should shoulder blame? (I know if my team play badly, I always blame myself far more than anyone else).

Or has he turned a blind eye?

I'm not a Kidney basher, but it just seems like the article makes criticisms with no real solutions.

rrpc

funky penguin wrote: »

Not once does he mention the management team.

Is this because he's still freshly retired and feels like players should shoulder blame? (I know if my team play badly, I always blame myself far more than anyone else).

Or has he turned a blind eye?

I'm not a Kidney basher, but it just seems like the article makes criticisms with no real solutions.

To be fair to Quinlan, nobody that i've read or heard so far has actually mentioned a solution to what England were doing last Saturday. The answer apparently is that we need more tightheads (we do) but that wouldn't have stopped Ross getting injured or Court getting screwed. Corbisiero was boring in on Ross and that's what damaged his shoulder, he continued on Court and Court just bailed out (as you would).

Usually in rugby there's an answer to many of the on-field tactics that oppositions use: chip over a rush defence, run intercepts on a close in attack etc. I'm no scrum 'doctor', but surely there's something you can do to nullify a LH boring in or a hooker loosening his bind to push your front row up?

Nobody so far has even addressed this, and to me that's where management failed so miserably on Saturday. If heads went down in the second half, that's because the players realised this and felt abandoned to their fate. Nothing could have been more demoralising then seeing TOL and ROG coming on as if they were the answer to the problem.

JustinDee

phog wrote: »

Remind me again the opposition that Reddan was playing against for those games where his try count is best.

How many times did we threaten the try line with Reddan on the field against England? How long was he on for?

Here's more stats for the 3 S/Hs.

Kick Pass Run
Murray 15 143 18
Reddan 15 111 8
O'Leary 4 27 1

Where are these stats from??

leftleg

smurphy29 wrote: »

In answer to the thread title, unquestionably, yes. Matty Williams knows what other countries can be like, and he has gone on record as saying the Irish media are highly co-operative.

There is generally too much parochial nonsense and agenda-pushing in the Irish meeja, and the biggest culprits are the likes of Frankie 'My Client' Sheahan and the gormless, cringeworthy Hugh Farrelly. The biggest disappointment, to me anyway, is the decline of the once great Gerry Thornley. A big thanks to the poster who put the two articles next to one another because it really drives the point home.

I remember when a Six Nations or Heineken Cup weekend started not at kick-off time but when you'd go and buy the papers to read Thornley's pre-match piece to work yourself into a state of nervous excitement. It was essential reading. Not any more. It's a tragedy that the chief rugby writer in the country has sold out his critical faculties, seemingly in a bid to cosy up to management and get the inside track. On Newstalk's Wednesday Night Rugby show you can almost hear him straining at the leash to get to Kidney's defence, no matter what the issue. It's a sad state of affairs.

Your very welcome mate; that's exactly how i felt; hes sold his journalistic soul and values for a team sheet anybody could predict imo

Almaviva

Where is Sinead Kissane when you need her ?

And, has anyone seen or heard from DK these days?

Struggling to accept the depressing reality that it may be 2014 6 nations before we see any upturn in the fortunes of the Irish rugby team.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Reddan was Irelands best scrum half this year, quite simply. He is not perfect but he is our best option at 9 until Murray proves himself capable of playing at the pace required to give our backs a chance. Hopefully Murray gets fit soon so he can start working on it. Last thing we need is a long string of injuries for the lad.

the problem with reddan is that his defence is very poor. he scored a try and then was responsible for conceeding one. if Ireland had a girvan dempsey as full back he might be a decent option.

funky penguin

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0323/1224313765255.html

Toland's take on matters. Basically saying we need to be more experimental like Wales and England.

Conas

As many people have remarked. Kidney has brought this team backwards since winning the Grand Slam in 2009. He also doesn't seem to listen to anything the media writes. So it doesn't matter if their being too soft or hard on him, its like water off a ducks back to Deccie. He really needs to give himself a shake, and start trying new combos, new tactics, and finding new talent. Fair enough he had great success with Munster, but if the truth be known, behind the scenes he neglected a lot of things, the academy being one of them. He seems to be doing the same thing with Ireland. I think he's exactly like EOS in everything that he does. I'd much rather him take the Brian Cody route by being ruthless in terms of team selection. No place should be guaranteed, and form should count for everything. But Kidney doesn't go down this road, instead its all about loyalty. If your my friend, and from Munster I'll give you a chance. Deccie picks his friends, over picking the best players. He's also afraid to try new things. I'd much rather a foreign manager, who has a bit of fire in the belly, and will make these changes that are needed. With Kidney staying on as manager, everything will stay flat, when this team needs a bit of fizz.

molloyjh

funky penguin wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0323/1224313765255.html

Toland's take on matters. Basically saying we need to be more experimental like Wales and England.

While still winning. I think someone needs to tell Toland that we aren't really winning! The article makes it sound like its just been the one bad tournament. It's been the fourth in a row - 3 6 Nations and a RWC. When is someone going to actually stand up and call a spade a spade!?

leftleg

molloyjh wrote: »

While still winning. I think someone needs to tell Toland that we aren't really winning! The article makes it sound like its just been the one bad tournament. It's been the fourth in a row - 3 6 Nations and a RWC. When is someone going to actually stand up and call a spade a spade!?

Its not a spade, its a joker!!

CoDy1

molloyjh wrote: »

While still winning. I think someone needs to tell Toland that we aren't really winning! The article makes it sound like its just been the one bad tournament. It's been the fourth in a row - 3 6 Nations and a RWC. When is someone going to actually stand up and call a spade a spade!?

Toland was reffering to England and Wales here tbf and that this is the ideal thing, making big changes but still winning matches.

Kayless

like Conas said its "water off a ducks back" Deccie's negligence has and will continue to cost us and for that reason he needs to go. The IRFU and the Media should be ashamed of themselves for supporting this shambles, yes we won the 6 nations for the first time in 60 odd years and even managed to beat Aus in the SH but come on... even a blind dog finds a bone.

Post I posted elsewhere. Feel free to ignore for the most part, other forum not really a rugby forum so was trying to give some background info too.

---

The problem of Irish rugby and our negative approach to the development of the game goes far beyond Declan Kidney or Eddie O'Sullivan. The issues that are bred into the coaches with regards to picking the "stars" every game is prime to fishtail out of control.

Since the introduction of Declan Kidney as Irish coach, 3.5 seasons ago, there have been few unenforced (due to injury) changes made to the starting 15. They have been Conor Murry at scrum half and Jonathan Sexton at outhalf.

All other players that have received new caps since the beginning of his tenure have either been used solely as injury fodder, (Rhys Ruddock, Chris Henry, Dan Tuohy) or have forced themselves to be included from then on. "Their selection ultimately would've been inevitable, but they took the chance they were given" - is a phrase that people use far too easily to try and explain this situation away. (I'm talking about Cian Healy, Mike Ross, Sean Cronin, Sean O'Brien and Peter O'Mahoney here - not one of these players was selected above another fit player - they were dropped into the team). This excuse is not good enough, not by a long shot. Imagine you were the boss of a specialist factory, and you had a 63year old man looking to retire, you need to replace him, and all you have available is 18 year olds straight out of university. The clever boss brings a couple of 18yr olds in, lets them have a trial, and maybe picks one or two to work alongside the elder statesman for the final two years of his contract.

That's not how Irish rugby has ever been run though.

The situation in Irish rugby would to simply look at the next two weeks, realise that there are no problems with the 63year old doing his job, and everything is now seen as rosy.

John Hayes, Donnacha O'Callaghan, Brian O'Driscoll - All players that played too consistently for Ireland.
When you see Brian O'Driscoll lining out against the might of the Tongans or the Samoans in an Autumn International game with absolutely nothing to play for, you can understand the frustration that people have with our ignorance of the future.

Do we expect a BOD replacement to come along and seamlessly fill the Jersey when BOD hangs up his boots? I sure as **** don't. In fact, I imagine that regardless of who ultimately earns that 13 Jersey when BOD is finished is going to have some serious teething issues while there, issues that playing a couple of "nothing" games in the preceding 18 months might have unearthed, instead of relying on players to get up to scratch in a 6N or WC.

The average fan doesn't know much about our youth structures, or youth systems, and to be honest, there's no need to. But a failing on the part of the IRFU (And Declan, and Eddie before him) is the inability to bring these guys through in a steady system. Instead of dropping them into the team, there needs to be obvious routes for these guys to progress on.

Lets talk about player availability.

In the 6N 2012, just 19 players started between the 5 games. Fergus McFadden played 13 against Italy because Earls was unavailable for selection, Donnacha Ryan played 4 when POC's tournament was discovered finished, Reddan took Murray's place when he was no longer available for selection, and Peter O'Mahoney took Sean O'Brien's spot when Sean was in hospital.

Consider that when the first game was over, we no longer had any chance of winning the 6N (perhaps 50/1?) - yet our team selection policy meant that we were completely afraid to try anything new unless it absolutely had to be done.

How will we ever, ever find out about this extensive list of players that are available for our national side, unless they actually play?

Props -( Cian Healy (24) - Mike Ross (32) - Tom Court (31)) Jamie Hagan, Brett Wilkinson, Paddy McAllister, Adam Macklin, Stephen Archer, Ronan Loughney - These are all guys that are going to have to be front line players for their provinces in the coming season. Yet only one of them was even involved in the training camp!
Hookers (Rory Best (29) - Sean Cronin (25)) - Mike Sherry, Sean Henry - We are blessed in having Best, Cronin and soon to be Strauss available for us, all with plenty of miles left to go on the clock. Sherry and Henry are another pair of typically Munster Hookers, both look likely to be involved in pro rugby for years to come.
Second Rows - (Paul O'Connell (32) - Donnacha O'Callaghan (32) - Donnacha Ryan (28) - Mike McCarthy (30)) - Dan Tuohy, Devin Toner are both having fantastic seasons (once again in Tuohy's case) but are nowhere near the side. Tuohy is probably the best ball carrying second row in Ireland, having spent many years as a blindside flanker. He should be in the XXII.
Back Row - Savage amount of depth here, considering that we don't have any problem with the age profile of the current bunch. Also available are Chris Henry at Ulster (MotM against Clermont and Leicester), Rhys Ruddock and Dominic Ryan at Leinster.
Scrum Half - (Conor Murray (22) - Eoin Reddan (31) - Tomás O'Leary (28)) - This one boils my blood. Tomás O'Leary has been an absolute ghost of a player for club and for country for years now. He's not a prospect, nor is he good enough to play 9 in green right now. Paul Marshall at Ulster has been absolutely lightning off the bench for the entire season. He is a scrum half that conservaKidney would be scared of though. A positive player.
Out Half - ( Jonathan Sexton (26) - ROG (overthehill)) - No idea what ROG was doing in the team once the 6N as a competition was over. He contributed nothing, he did nothing, and thankfully he stayed out of the press. Keatley (24) is having a poor starting season at Munster, but either himself or Madigan (23) - second top try scorer in the Rabo Pro Direct 12 are going to have to be backup at some stage. Why was a dead rubber competition ignored as a likely spot for this?
Centres - Gordan D'Arcy(32) should probably never play for Ireland again, even if he regains stellar form at Leinster. His time has come. BOD (33) would probably be the exact same except for the fact that we're going to have to blood an entire new centre partnership to do so. Players available that need to be tested - Cave, Spence, McSharry, McFadden (at 12), O'Malley, Griffin.
Back 3 players - See backrow - Insane depth here across all provinces. Listing the players that will be around for the next WC - Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Fitzgerald, Kearney, Jones, Hurley, Morris, Gilroy, O'Halloran, Carr, D.Kearney, Conway, Zebo - nothing to worry about here

We will never progress without an aim to progress. If all you can see is the next game, then you're going to miss absolutely every chance there ever was to get these guys into the team.

We've won or been close to winning 3 of the last 4 U20 6N competitions. Usually beaten by a vastly bigger English team (who's academies start them on weights programmes at 14 (heavily supervised of course)(17-18 here)), or struggling to beat the French in France. Of the teams that played in the last 4 U20 tournaments; Scotland have capped 9 of them, Wales have capped 11 of them, England have capped 11, and Ireland have capped 3 of them. (Post here)

Ireland and England exited the World Cup 2011 tournament at the same stage, had a similar age profile across their teams, and a similar record in the 6N competition for the past 5 years. (using ~ that same team).

Ireland said "Keep calm and carry on" - and more of the same continued
England said "**** this ****, we're better than this" - fired their head coach, decided to try some different rugby, cleared out players that were previously undroppable, and trusted some of their youth to play.

Wonder how things are set to progress for both teams over the next 2 years?

JustinDee

Again, you're comparing England's situation with that of Ireland's when the two were not even remotely similar.
England made sweeping changes because they had no other option.
They had no CEO but a temp who replaced a replacement who got the boot by his committees because they didn't like his recommendations, an elite head involved in a political battle at HQ, a manager who had never even headed coaches, let alone coached a professional side before in his life, a core of players showing evident disciplinary and attitude problems, the antithesis of what is required for a international squad. England also have a season-through battle with their clubs, particularly the privately-owned entities.
Also your main point seems to be about age profiles. Having brought England forward as an example, what age was the backbone of England's RWC-winning team?

It's not about age profiles.

It's about the idea of not having a Bust / Boom cycle of players.

It's about not playing one group of players aged 22 until they're 32, and then pushing them all out of the squad and bringing in the new 22 year olds.

Just In Time deliveries are great and everything, but when anything goes wrong, it all goes wrong.

leftleg

JustinDee wrote: »

Again, you're comparing England's situation with that of Ireland's when the two were not even remotely similar.
England made sweeping changes because they had no other option.
They had no CEO but a temp who replaced a replacement who got the boot by his committees because they didn't like his recommendations, an elite head involved in a political battle at HQ, a manager who had never even headed coaches, let alone coached a professional side before in his life, a core of players showing evident disciplinary and attitude problems, the antithesis of what is required for a international squad. England also have a season-through battle with their clubs, particularly the privately-owned entities.
Also your main point seems to be about age profiles. Having brought England forward as an example, what age was the backbone of England's RWC-winning team?

What are our options so; how was our situation different from Englands?? And please can you answer clearly without any innuendo or vagueness.

irishbucsfan

JustinDee wrote: »

Again, you're comparing England's situation with that of Ireland's when the two were not even remotely similar.
England made sweeping changes because they had no other option.
They had no CEO but a temp who replaced a replacement who got the boot by his committees because they didn't like his recommendations, an elite head involved in a political battle at HQ, a manager who had never even headed coaches, let alone coached a professional side before in his life, a core of players showing evident disciplinary and attitude problems, the antithesis of what is required for a international squad. England also have a season-through battle with their clubs, particularly the privately-owned entities.
Also your main point seems to be about age profiles. Having brought England forward as an example, what age was the backbone of England's RWC-winning team?

Are you saying that a change in executive personnel somehow affected team squad selection? I guess a similar change in the IRFU may prove equally beneficial so.

The way Lancaster managed his squad of players was hugely different to the way Kidney did. He selected based on form and when he made selections that didn't work he changed things and they saw the benefits of this. Dickson, Morgan etc all winning their place mid-Championship. Declan Kidney made no such changes. Not one single unforced change. Not one single chance for anyone outside his initial XV unless it was forced upon him.

It especially hurts when you read Ian Evans or Lee Dickson talking about how everyone in their squad feel like their place is up for grabs.

Ireland did not "have" to make changes in the same way England did. They "could" have though, and they squandered the opportunity, yet again.

JustinDee

leftleg wrote: »

What are our options so; how was our situation different from Englands?? And please can you answer clearly without any innuendo or vagueness.

I pointed out exactly how the Irish camp was in a very different place in that the post you're quoting.

"They had no CEO but a temp who replaced a replacement who got the boot by his committees because they didn't like his recommendations, an elite head involved in a political battle at HQ, a manager who had never even headed coaches, let alone coached a professional side before in his life, a core of players showing evident disciplinary and attitude problems, the antithesis of what is required for a international squad. England also have a season-through battle with their clubs, particularly the privately-owned entities"

There'll be some changes for the tour I'd say, but I'm not going to go into specifics on whom I think will move up and down the order as an internet forum with anonymous posters is not the place.

CatFromHue

leftleg wrote: »

What are our options so; how was our situation different from Englands?? And please can you answer clearly without any innuendo or vagueness.

The leaked reports that portrayed the English coaches and some senior players as being incompetent and having little interest in how the English team performed is one difference.

The English team had some high profile off the pitch misdemeanour's which portrayed a poor team dynamic is another.

leftleg

JustinDee wrote: »

I pointed out exactly how the Irish camp was in a very different place in that the post you're quoting.

"They had no CEO but a temp who replaced a replacement who got the boot by his committees because they didn't like his recommendations, an elite head involved in a political battle at HQ, a manager who had never even headed coaches, let alone coached a professional side before in his life, a core of players showing evident disciplinary and attitude problems, the antithesis of what is required for a international squad. England also have a season-through battle with their clubs, particularly the privately-owned entities"

There'll be some changes for the tour I'd say, but I'm not going to go into specifics on whom I think will move up and down the order as an internet forum with anonymous posters is not the place.

OK so despite they having an incompetent coaching setup and some brainfart off pitch misdemeanours and some locker room issues, they still managed to get to the same place as us in the RWC ie QF defeat; while we had the "ideal" squad and coach; says alot really;

Where is the right place to discuss it if not the rugby forum on boards; irfu hq maybe?? the pub?? the back of the bus??

leftleg

JustinDee wrote: »

I pointed out exactly how the Irish camp was in a very different place in that the post you're quoting.

"They had no CEO but a temp who replaced a replacement who got the boot by his committees because they didn't like his recommendations, an elite head involved in a political battle at HQ, a manager who had never even headed coaches, let alone coached a professional side before in his life, a core of players showing evident disciplinary and attitude problems, the antithesis of what is required for a international squad. England also have a season-through battle with their clubs, particularly the privately-owned entities"

There'll be some changes for the tour I'd say, but I'm not going to go into specifics on whom I think will move up and down the order as an internet forum with anonymous posters is not the place.

Not the ones we want though; and at that it will be because of an injury or because the waiting player is too good

CatFromHue

leftleg wrote: »

OK so despite they having an incompetent coaching setup and some brainfart off pitch misdemeanours and some locker room issues, they still managed to get to the same place as us in the RWC ie QF defeat; while we had the "ideal" squad and coach; says alot really;

Where is the right place to discuss it if not the rugby forum on boards; irfu hq maybe?? the pub?? the back of the bus??

The coaching set up was "portrayed" as being incompetent but certainly Brian Smith was regarded as being very competent before he went to England. They'd also won last years 6 Nations which seems to have been forgotten about for some reason.

While this thread is titled "Is the Media too soft" it appeared the media in England were the complete opposite to England during and after the RWC.